![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 41 to 65 of 228. Go back in thread:
Posted by world citizen on February 24, 2005, at 0:22:57
In reply to Re: Selegiline here's the DMSO site » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 23, 2005, at 16:29:51
So Elroy, would the 7-Keto be a problem for you? I'm not aware if it can be turned into estrogen in your system. The OTHER thing that accurs to me is thatyou might have been exposed to some sort of toxin-environmental, food additives (by the way, you don't use aspartame, do you? It is very neurotoxic and causes other problems as well!!!) Maybe if you had hair analysis done you might find a culprit. Did you get any tooth fillings during that time frame, mercury is incredibly toxic. It might just be that your cortisol went crazy because of the crap that was going on in your life. Have you considered therapy so you might process this stuff and perhaps come up with ways of relaxing and letting go so as to reduce your cortisol? I'm just asking, I have not a clue.
World Citizen
Posted by Elroy on February 24, 2005, at 19:02:56
In reply to Re: Selegiline here's the DMSO site, posted by world citizen on February 24, 2005, at 0:22:57
No, I don't believe that 7-KETO would be a problem (specifically that version of DHEA). In fact, it is on my definite "To Try" list. Especially since it also has a known anti-cortisol effect.
As to aspartame, in my efforts to stay away from sugar, I used to consume that occasionally. Very little however as I just haven't been much into sweets (diet food style or otherwise). I have since replaced it with (mainly) stevia and occasionally sucralose....
As to: "It might just be that your cortisol went crazy because of the crap that was going on in your life."
I think that is a very likely scenario. I think that I had slightly elevated cortisol for several years (let's say 1996 - 1999), with a "bump up" then from 2000 - 2002. There was some on-going therapy between July 2002 and early Feb 2004 (which I think caused the cortisol to plaeau off if not recede slightly... but overall, I think that the HP Axis was already "mostly broken" and just waiting for the right trigger). The therapy (and Ambien) was stopped as I "was better" (in fact was feeling greater than I had in years). Then in June of 2004 there was then a family loss situation that provided that trigger and there was suddenly a huge amount of anxiety. That was then soon followed by hypogonadism, strong peripheral neuropathy symptoms, strong UTI type symptoms, and tinnitus... with the first starting within about 2 weeks of the anxiety onset and all of them surfacing within about 2 - 3 weeks of each other! So I think that in one sense the chronic anxiety stressed (over-stressed) the HPA Axis which resulted in chronic high levels of cortisol. The chronic high levels of cortisol enhanced the anxiety and the very severe anxiety "broke" the HPA Axis, causing a steady flood of excessive cortisol which - along with the anxiety - caused the rapid onset of the various physical disorders.
As to: "Have you considered therapy so you might process this stuff and perhaps come up with ways of relaxing and letting go so as to reduce your cortisol?"....
Yes.
First response (after the PCP visits with a Kouple of Klowns) was with endos - as I knew that there was something going on wrong "inside". That's when the super low Test and the super high cortisol was found.
Then I fired things back up with the Psych Doc as the anxiety levels were just continuing to escalate - and I knew that whereas that first time I got away with no meds (other than herbal SJW), that this time around the anxiety was so severe that meds were going to be needed. Plus I later found out that Xanax has been shown to be quite beneficial for several types of tinnitus.
But hands-on therapy is now the next stage coming up. I am starting things back up with my prior therapist in a couple of weeks. Plus I found out that she is now advanced trained in that EMDR technology so she's going to incorporate that therapy.
See: http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=4144
I am also considering adding in the Redirecting Self Therapy into the mix.
See: http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=4083
Finally, I believe that the brain neurotransmitters are completely out of balance and that some need boosting (see Dr. Braverman's book, "The Edge Effect"), so I am going to simultaneously address those particulars with specific nutrients and the use of a CES device.
Oh... and on top of all of that, I'm going to address the cortisol levels directly by escalting use of anti-cortisol supps - and maybe trying to actually talk my endo into doing the short-term RU486 therapy for stopping cortisol and re-setting the HPA Axis.
Anxieties and depressions that do not respond effectively to early efforts to correct brain neurotransmiiters are - IMHO - very likely to be a result of a broken HPA Axis... especially, I believe, in scenarios where anxiety started first and depression came in later. Anyway, the system cannot completely turn off the Fight Or Flight Mechanism so until the HPA Axis gets "re-set", the meds don't work, or do for a while and then stop working, and the various therapy approaches either don't work, or work very, very slowly.
Anyway, there has been some interesting research done into the use of RU486 for treating severe depression (and would work similarly IMO in cases of anxiety, etc. that were related to elevated cortisol - which we KNOW exists in my case).
See:
http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/depression/psychotic.asp (this is my type of depression... active, anxious, agitated)
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p040592.html
http://www2.eclinicalpsychiatrynews.com/scripts/om.dll/serve?action=searchDB&searchDBfor=art&artType=full&id=aqc04032616
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/nnp/research/publication/18411
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2000/november8/ru486-1108.html
http://www.wctv6.com/news/features/1/326156.html
http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/depression/psychotic_ru486.asp
>
> So Elroy, would the 7-Keto be a problem for you? I'm not aware if it can be turned into estrogen in your system. The OTHER thing that accurs to me is thatyou might have been exposed to some sort of toxin-environmental, food additives (by the way, you don't use aspartame, do you? It is very neurotoxic and causes other problems as well!!!) Maybe if you had hair analysis done you might find a culprit. Did you get any tooth fillings during that time frame, mercury is incredibly toxic. It might just be that your cortisol went crazy because of the crap that was going on in your life. Have you considered therapy so you might process this stuff and perhaps come up with ways of relaxing and letting go so as to reduce your cortisol? I'm just asking, I have not a clue.
> World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on February 24, 2005, at 20:29:10
In reply to Re: Selegiline here's the DMSO site » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 24, 2005, at 19:02:56
Hey Elroy,
I don't know if you've heard of Dr. John Lee or not I've got several of his books. He addresses male hormone issues as well as female, here is his site;
www.johnleemd.comI'm VERY happy to hear you're going to continue the therapy, sometimes we need to have our issues heard so we can process them!
World Citizen!
Posted by world citizen on February 25, 2005, at 23:40:18
In reply to Re: Selegiline here's the DMSO site » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 24, 2005, at 19:02:56
Elroy, have you ever heard of tribulus?
I don't have a specific site for you. But I looked it up on the internet after being reminded by a friend. This stuff is for guys. It reduces CORTISOL and reduces DEPRESSION. This stuff is for real!! My son took it and had very good results, he's the one that reminded me of it's efficacy. He recommended a specific brand-I cant' remember at the moment but will consult with him further over the weekend and get back to you.
I hope all is well!
World Citizen!
Posted by Elroy on February 27, 2005, at 18:43:41
In reply to Re: Selegiline here's the DMSO site, posted by world citizen on February 25, 2005, at 23:40:18
Yes, have heard of it and tried it. Did nothing for me. The extremely elevated cortisol basically shut down the sex hormone production and required a full-fledged testosterone replacement therapy. The TRT uses AndroGel where a bioidentical form of testosterone is used. It becomes an expensive pharmaceutical substance NOT becuse of the testosterone... since it's bio-identical, the Pharma cannot patent the testosterone so it has to devise and patent the DELIVERY mechanism... and then charge the consumer an ungodly amount of money. With my insurance coverage and buying 90-day lots in advance, it ends up costing (co-pay) me less than what the comparable amount of tribulus would - and in my circumstances, the tribulus wouldn't work anyway!
P.S. Have also read some recent stuff that DHEA (incl 7-KETO version) doesn't really reduce elevated cortisol levels, but that it simply increases DHEA levels which modifies the DHEA/cortisol ratio os as to make cortisol levels seem lesser only in comparison to DHEA levels. Not a bad thing, in fact is a good thing, but not what I need right now. My DHEA levels aren't in the top 20% but they aren't low either. I have a bigger concern to get the cortisol levels down - permanently - into normal ranges....
Posted by mogger on March 9, 2005, at 19:26:36
In reply to Re: Taking selegiline for a long time questions, posted by world citizen on February 12, 2005, at 14:51:07
Hi there, my sister is trying Selegiline and her doctor has her at 20 mg per day for her depression. Is this the normal dose? Many thanks for your thoughts,
mogger
Posted by Elroy on March 9, 2005, at 21:37:43
In reply to Selegiline, therapeutic dose for depression?, posted by mogger on March 9, 2005, at 19:26:36
I am by no means an MD, but I would personally be much more inclined towards going with LOW DOSE Selegiline (that means 15mg or less, usally more specifically 5mg or 10mg) combined with low-to-moderate dose of amino acid DLPA. Not only seems to be a much "safer" way to go, but my research indicates that much more positive results are gained with this approach.
Either have her doctor research that aspect, or maybe provide him yourself with some printed out articles from some of these links:
http://www.smart-drugs.com/ias-Info/ias-deprenyl.htm
QUOTE: Depression Several studies have suggested that like non-selective monoamine oxidase inhibitors such as phenelzine, selegiline may be of some benefit in depression. Mendlewicz and Youdim reported a marked improvement in 14 patients with unipolar or bipolar depression who received selegiline hydrochloride 5 mg three times daily for 40 days compared with 13 patients given placebo. (1) Similarly, Birkmayer et al. reported benefit in an uncontrolled study in 102 outpatients and 53 inpatients with unipolar depression who received selegiline hydrochloride 5 to 10 mg daily in association with phenylalanine 250 mg daily- about 70% of these patients, in whom conventional antidepressants were not effective, were reported as having complete remission. END QUOTEI don't have the sources for these handy, but:
QUOTE: Several studies have suggested that like non-selective monoamine oxidase inhibitors such as phenelzine, selegiline may be of some benefit in depression. Mendlewicz and Youdim reported a marked improvement in 14 patients with unipolar or bipolar depression who received selegiline hydrochloride 5 mg three times daily for 40 days compared with 13 patients given placebo. (1) Similarly, Birkmayer et al. reported benefit in an uncontrolled study in 102 outpatients and 53 inpatients with unipolar depression who received selegiline hydrochloride 5 to 10 mg daily in association with phenylalanine 250 mg daily- about 70% of these patients, in whom conventional antidepressants were not effective, were reported as having complete remission. (2) END QUOTE
QUOTE: The antidepressive efficacy of L-deprenyl (5-10 mg daily) plus L-phenylalanine (250 mg/day) has been evaluated in 155 unipolar depressed patients. Both oral and intravenous administration showed beneficial effects in 90% of outpatients and 80.5% of inpatients. It is concluded that this combined treatment has a potent antidepressive action based on the accumulation of L-phenylethylamine in the brain. END QUOTE
http://www.selegiline.com/pea.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20041211/msgs/430276.html
Note: L-deprenyl and Segeline are same thing. DLPA is a form of phenylethylamine that combines both the D-version and the L-version...
Just my thoughts on this. Have doctor check out this possible option as both a better and safer alternative???
> Hi there, my sister is trying Selegiline and her doctor has her at 20 mg per day for her depression. Is this the normal dose? Many thanks for your thoughts,
> mogger
Posted by world citizen on March 9, 2005, at 23:02:45
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » mogger, posted by Elroy on March 9, 2005, at 21:37:43
Okay here is my testimonial! Can I hear an amen?
No really, I've been taking DLPA since '99-00 with blessed effects on both chronic pain and depression. I began taking Selegiline in '02. I've been taking 5mgs approx. one half hour after taking my DLPA, B6, vit.c and some form of simple carbohydrat. I take the Selegiline with a good amount of protein. Sometimes when I get distracted by the world at large I forget to take it for a while, sometimes weeks at a time. Yes, I can definately tell the difference when I take it. The thing is, it's very easy for me to think that I don't need it anymore due to the fact that it stays in the brain (in decreasing concentration) for about 2 weeks, as is the customary way of MAOIs. So one can still get the benefits without taking it every day, or without worrying about missing a day! BUT! Every day that goes by the confusion increases and sorrow grows.
I had horrible side effects with both tricyclic and SSRI antidepressants. I can't say I've noticed any side effects with Selegiline
AND! I've been taking the TMG for a few weeks (in addition to my other suppliments) I feel great! I'm going through one of the most stressful times in my life but I'm handling it. I must say I give a good percentage of the credit for my progress to God in the many ways He provides guidance (including Selegiline!)
World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on March 9, 2005, at 23:10:02
In reply to Selegiline, therapeutic dose for depression?, posted by mogger on March 9, 2005, at 19:26:36
I agree with Elroy, I think that's WAY to high a dose. Has your sister been profoundly depressed or what? At that dose is when the whole question of the tyromine problem comes up. If you go to the sites that Elroy reccomended then surely you could come up with some quotes from individuals with a sufficient amount of initials following their names. Have your sister take that in to the MD so he/she can continue his/her medical education!!!!!!!!!!
Just because someone has a license to practice medicine this doesn't guarantee that they were an A student in medical school!
World Citizen
Posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 1:13:11
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » mogger, posted by Elroy on March 9, 2005, at 21:37:43
Thanks so much for your thoughts, I will discuss it with her doctor. Are the amino acids critical or will she have positive effects even without the amino acids?
mogger
Posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 1:45:15
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on February 19, 2005, at 2:02:23
world citizen,
do you have to take the amino acid to get benefits from selegiline or can you feel some benefits on it's own? many thanks,
mogger
Posted by KaraS on March 10, 2005, at 2:55:10
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » mogger, posted by Elroy on March 9, 2005, at 21:37:43
Elroy,
Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
Kara
Posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 11:42:42
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 1:45:15
Mogger,that information is not accessable to me at the moment. If you email joe@dancesafe.org and ask him he'll be able to bring some clarity to this issue for you.
World Citizenps when I find out I'll email you with it immediately, in the meantime please email joe.
Posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 12:40:52
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 1:45:15
Hey Mogger,
according to Dr. Bob at www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel your sister might do well to consume some high quality whey protein 20 min. prior to taking the Selegiline. The site above has extensive information about enhancing the effect of S.WARNING! Anyone subject to drug testing may test positive for methamphetamine while taking Selegiline as meth is a weak metabolite of Selegeline (no buzz).
World Citizen
Posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 13:17:40
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 12:40:52
Thanks for the input World Citizen, I am checking that site out now.
moggger
Posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 20:46:10
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 10, 2005, at 2:55:10
Kara,
Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.> Elroy,
>
> Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
>
> Kara
Posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 21:16:20
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 1:13:11
The DPLA - or at least the L-phenylalanine amino acid - is critical in this combination. The DPLA basically (and this is a real thumbnail sketch type of summarization) releases the dopamine and PEA and the (very low dose) selegiline simply keeps the dopamine and PEA active in the brain much longer than they normally would be. OEA especially has a very short half-life in the brain... something like less than a minute (unless the deprenyl is present).
Some people do better with one dose in the morning only. Others do better with half the dose in the morning and half the dose in very early afternoon. Not good to take it later int eh day only because it can be quite energizing and create some sleep problems if taken too late.
I have also read some material that also taking L-Theanine (during day), GABA (during the day), TMG (or samE "sammy", but TMG does the same thing cheaper) and 5-HTP(taking the 5-HTP on empty stomach at bedtime) all are also helpful in improving the effects of the deprenyl and creating a situation where brain neurotransmitters are balanced.
Find a copy of the book "The Edge Effect" by Doctor Eric Braverman and read it thoroughly for a much better understanding of the aspects of the brain's neurotransmitters, correcting deficiencies in brain neurotranmitters, and balancing and optimizing them.
I believe that it goes a long way towards explaining why SSRIs (serotonin) simply don't work on a lot of people or aren't that effective over the long haul. If one has a primarily GABA deficiency and mild serotonin deficiency then taking SSRI type ADs will provide a little help, but overall not much... which would only make sense since the GABA deficiency isn't being addressed!
The "Edge Effect" has a comprehensive test in it that you can take to pretty fairly determine your neurotransmitter dominance. And then another one to determine your neurotransmitter deciciecy (or deficiencies).
I took them and found that I had a dopamine dominant brain and primary deficiencies in Dopamine and secondarily in GABA with mild deficiency in Acetylcholine and almost NONE in serotonin.
So SSRIs wouldn't make much sense in my situation (and has NOT worked well the couple times tried), but the recently taken deprenyl / DPLA / B6 combination has worked wonders... as it should seeing as how there apparently was a serious dopamine deficiency!
Interestingly Xanax works thru GABA pathways, but I have recently (yesterday) been started on Neurontin for some neuropathic pain relief and it works even more strongly on the GABA system so may very well end up being able to wean completely off the Xanax while on the Neurontin.
Ideally - as Braverman discusses in his book - through proper supplementation via concentrated nutrients one can get to that state where deficiencies are corrected, and balancing and optimizing is going on... and meds can be either completely dropped or at least significantly minimized!
> Thanks so much for your thoughts, I will discuss it with her doctor. Are the amino acids critical or will she have positive effects even without the amino acids?
> mogger
Posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 21:29:45
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 12:40:52
Can't get that link to open up to anything....
Is that the full link?
www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel
Does not seem to have a proper "ending"....
Another good site describing proper syupplementations to consider in more strictly anxiety / panic attack type situations:
http://www.restoreunity.org/panic_attacks.htm
Some others:
http://www.restoreunity.org/blocking_reabsorption_of_seroton.htm
> Hey Mogger,
> according to Dr. Bob at www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel your sister might do well to consume some high quality whey protein 20 min. prior to taking the Selegiline. The site above has extensive information about enhancing the effect of S.
>
> WARNING! Anyone subject to drug testing may test positive for methamphetamine while taking Selegiline as meth is a weak metabolite of Selegeline (no buzz).
> World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 23:27:08
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 21:29:45
Hey Elroy,
Okay I guess I left out some crucial bits of information. I hope this will get you there:www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel/.htm
I'm not sure if the dot preceding htm should be there or not, I wrote it down.I hope you're doing well.
World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 23:41:16
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 21:16:20
Elroy, you will DEFINATELY be able to wean from Xanax if you're taking Neurontin. That is exactly how I did it before. Did they do a liver panel? Neurontin can be very hard on the liver. You might was to get some "Liver Guard" from Source Naturals.
I can't tell you how thrilled I am to hear that someone else has tried and is having such a good response to DLPA/Selegiline etc.
I wonder how many posters at this site are aware that the pharmaceutical industry is trying to make supplements unavailable over the counter (not unlike what recently occured in the EU)? You guys think it couldn't happen here? I guess it would be advisable for someone who is internet savvy (hint, hint) to post some information about this so we know what's likely to be on the horizon and what we can do about it!!!!!!!!!
World Citizen
Posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 1:29:27
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 20:46:10
Hi Elroy,
Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
K
> Kara,
>
> Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
>
> Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
>
> It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
>
> I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
>
>
>
>
> I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
>
> > Elroy,
> >
> > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> >
> > Kara
>
>
Posted by world citizen on March 11, 2005, at 11:31:48
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 1:29:27
Kara, plese consult a pharmacist before taking selegiline. My understanding is that it can be lethal to take Selegiline and tricyclics, of which doxepin is one. Also certain prescription pain relievers are to be avoided -Demerol being the only one that comes to mind.SELEGILINE IS NOT A SUPPLEMENT!!!!!!! It is a prescription drug and the same precautions should be practiced as with other pharmceuticals.
I'm glad the Doxepin is helping, the stuff made me gain 30 lbs.
World Citizen
Posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 13:59:46
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by world citizen on March 11, 2005, at 11:31:48
>
> Kara, plese consult a pharmacist before taking selegiline. My understanding is that it can be lethal to take Selegiline and tricyclics, of which doxepin is one. Also certain prescription pain relievers are to be avoided -Demerol being the only one that comes to mind.
>
> SELEGILINE IS NOT A SUPPLEMENT!!!!!!! It is a prescription drug and the same precautions should be practiced as with other pharmceuticals.
>
> I'm glad the Doxepin is helping, the stuff made me gain 30 lbs.
>
> World Citizen
Thanks for your concern. I am well aware that selegiline is an MAOI but it is selective for MAO-B at dosage of 5 mg. Others here have combined it with 25 mg. of a tricyclic. I tend to be very cautious and so have avoided the combination so far.In addition, although full MAOIs are said to be contraindicated with tricylics, some people on the meds board are currently combining the two. SLS is taking 70 mg. of Parnate along with 100 mg. of nortriptyline. It's the more serotonergic TCAs such as clomipramine that the are the most dangerous to combine.
Yes, the pounds are starting to pile on. I'm trying to watch myself carefully but it's not easy.
k
Posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 18:54:01
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 23:27:08
Still cannot get that link to open, having tried several different combinations.
Hmmm....
Anyway, had a couple of good first days with the Neurotin, in fact... very good, but today it seemed like some of the neuropathy type pains are coming back. Just very slightly, but enough that I could occasional notice... but, wow!, it was like I didn't notice any neuropathy pains at all the first two days and there was ZERO anxiety.
BTW, I have really just started (also) the Selegiline combo - and have been going very, very conservatively with the Selegiline/DPLA (5mg and 250mg with 50mg B6) as I am very concerned about it creating any additional anxiety right now.
>
>
> Hey Elroy,
> Okay I guess I left out some crucial bits of information. I hope this will get you there:www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel/.htm
> I'm not sure if the dot preceding htm should be there or not, I wrote it down.
>
> I hope you're doing well.
> World Citizen
Posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 20:25:09
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 1:29:27
No, just to make sure that there's no misunderstanding, what the sales rep advised me - and the online literature has confirmed - is that the lower setting is for therapeutic response to anxiety (and insomnia) and that the higher setting is for depression and balancing the brain's neurotransmitters.
What I have found with my limited use so far (like three days with trying to hit twice a day w/ higher setting for 30 minutes each and one 30 minute session with lower setting at bedtime) is as follows:
My frustration is with the lower setting in that even with this second unit they sent that I don't feel it working. I put it on my wife and turned it up slightly and she felt it immediately. We did several runs with it and she couldn't see when I was turning it up or not and shje clearly felt it every time. I also put the electrodes on my tongue and at full power could then very, very faintly make out pulses! I don't know if my nerves have become really desensitized from my very high cortisol levels? Or, I should say formerly very high levels as I have been successful to getting those levels down to where they are just above the maximum end of the "normal reference range". Back in September my levels were almost SIX times the max of that range!
Anyway, so far (three days?) I have noticed that the higher range of the CES does seem to basically have a calming effect, a smoothing out effect. Now I am using it while also on Xanax and Neutrontin so it's not like there's a major anxiety crisis for it to address at this point. As to what the lower range might be doing, I'm just not sure it's having that much of an effect with me or not.
What I do look at as being possibly beneficial - and worth it no matter what may turn out in the other areas - is that if it does have the positive effect Dr. Braverman talks about in balancing the brain's neurotransmitters (???).
Also....
At this point, not really sure what I'm going to do with the Selegiline. I had a less than optimal day with the neurontin today - after having a couple of great days. On those "great days" I had almost no neuropathy type pain that I could notice, my feet - which are usally icy cold to the point of being painful - actually felt okay, and even felt warm at times! And, even more amazing, there was like no anxiety at all.. all day long! And slept great.
Then today I had like some background jitteriness type anxiety for most of the day. And it seemed like once it started that I began noticing some slight return of the neuropathy symptoms and some coldness to my feet again.
Hmmm.... what was the deal, what was going on differently?
And my wife then made an interesting observation.
She pointed out that from the start of all this (which has only been since June of 2004), that my PRIMARY problems have been elevated cortisol (and the physical/emotional/mental problems caused by same), the neuropathy type pains (more and more believed to have been developed by the high cortisol and "kept alive" by the anxiety), and the severely severe anxiety.... and that any depression has always been much milder and seems to simply exist from being depressed at all the crap I'm going through!
When she mentioned that it hit me that the first day on the neurontin I had not only the pain relief but also the complete lack of anxiety... and that there was ZERO depression. Now I can't claim that first day to any effect of the Selegiline / DLPA combo as that was the day before I started it.
Now after having been on the Selegiline / DLPA a couple of days I have a "down day". Granted absolutely NO depression, but a naggling return of a touch of anxiety - AND the touch of neuropathy pains....
Hmmm.....
Coincidence?
Or is the Selegiline combo creating just enough extra energy (which to someone that is sensitive in that direction then turns into anxiety)? And that extra "chemically induced" anxiety just enough to slightly overpower the neurontin effects?
Boy, I don't know. Was today just coincidentally a "down day". After all, I have been on neither the neurontin or the selegiline combo long enough to have their primary effects build up fully.
But then if the selegiline IS somehow being counter-effective to the neurontin - especially as experienced in the initial couple days - well, maybe continuing the selegiline experiment at this point is being counterproductive.
As my wife pointed out, my primary problem has always been severe anxiety as versus depression. In fact, from June '04 until about late October of '04 it was strictly anxiety with depression gradually entering the picture as it seemed more and more like the med docs and the psy docs just didn't know for sure what was going on....
> Hi Elroy,
>
> Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
>
> I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
>
> I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
>
> Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
>
> K
>
>
> > Kara,
> >
> > Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
> >
> > Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
> >
> > It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
> >
> > I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
> >
> > > Elroy,
> > >
> > > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> > >
> > > Kara
> >
> >
>
>
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