![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 34 to 58 of 228. Go back in thread:
Posted by Elroy on February 19, 2005, at 15:47:33
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on February 19, 2005, at 2:02:23
No, it's not a diabetic neuropathy. One doctor early last year felt that it was an alcohol related neuropathy, but my current endo disputed that in that I had pretty much quit drinking by 2000 and the symptoms didn't start for a couple years after that. My fasting blood sugars have been on the high side of normal and slightly above normal (105, 107, 117) but also more recently dropped down to the high normal range again. Seems to fluctuate along with the levels of cortisol.
In fact, they're simply not sure exactly what it is. It's very similar to neuropathy as it affects the feet and hands (much much more primarily the feet). But aso doesn't seem to fit the standard profiles for neuropathy.
WebMd says:
#1 A tingling sensation in the toes or in the balls of the feet that eventually spreads up the legs toward the trunk. Less commonly, the sensation may begin in the hands and spread up the arms.
#2 Numbness in the hands and feet that spreads up the arms and legs.
#3 Weakness or heaviness in muscles throughout the body. This may be accompanied by cramping, especially in the feet, legs, and hands.
#4 Sensitive skin that may be painful to the touch. Prickling, burning, tingling, or sharp stabbing sensations may occur spontaneously and usually worsen at night.
#5 A foot-drop walking gait and/or problems with balance or coordination.I have parts of number one - only it was a burning / stinging type of pain accompanied by extreely cold feeling "inside the feet" (note: I had the "extremely cold feet" feeling or the previous two winters when I had my first milder bout with anxiety)... no spreading up the legs towards the torso.
Number two: nothing at all, absolutely no numbness. Either noticeable pain or mild pain.
Number three: no, none of this at all.
Number four: only partly - definitely have the Prickling, burning, tingling sensations, but none of the sensitivity nor does it worsen at night... in fact if any thing it gets slightly better at night and I can sleep okay with it.
Number five: no, noe of that either.
Some info tht I found on DMSO - am still looking for something specifically tying it in to neuropathy...
QUOTE: DMSO, although not approved by the FDA for anything except an unusual bladder condition (interstitial cystitis), is widely used in sports medicine. Professional sports in particular use DMSO to get their athletes recovered from injury and back on the playing field. Each team knows the competition will use it, and this would mean a tremendous advantage for the other team, if it were to be ignored. Combine that with the fact that DMSO is as safe as it is effective (unlike large-dose steroid injections, which were once commonly used in professional sports) and its use becomes mandatory in professional sports medicine. Only medical grade - never industrial grade - should be used on the human body due to the acetone and acid contaminants present in the industrial grade product. END QUOTE
> Elroy I think my computer is getting suspicious!!!(tee-hee:)
>
> (And now back to our lead story where K, I mean World Citizen attempts to facilitate the alleviation of some of Elroys' discomfort. World Citizen is sincere yet slightly impaired due to her old nemesis/friend Atavan)
> Elroy I've been clicking keys and pointing cursors till I've come upon some potential alternatives for the DHEA-at least in terms of the neuropathy. By the way is it Diabetic Neuropathy? If it is then both alpha-lipoic acid and acetyl-L-carnitine are supposed to be very effective for it. The one site I have for you is lifeextensionvitamins.com.
> I usually shy away from getting information from the very place that would like to sell me the item, BUT this seems very thorough and dignified.
>
> I find it very interesting, nay even synchronistic that you began taking the TMG just a week ago.
>
> You know when I first moved here to this apartment I was never so scared in my life. I had never lived alone before. I'd raised my 2 sons was trying to finish my 20 year degree. (that would seem to require the entire alphabet to tag along after my name). Actually, I stopped going to school when my sons were 2 and 4, it was clear that they needed me and I needed to be the best mom I could be. Short story stretched out to unimaginable lengths-NO that's not what I was going to say! Long story short (much better) I waited until my pain was under control (THAT'S another thing about DLPA it obliberates chronic pain by doing something horrid to the enzyme that would attempt to neutralize my lovely little endorphins) and my sons had both reached the age of maturity. I deliberately moved to that apartment because it was SOOO close to school, only 4 blocks away. I kept trying and things kept getting weirder. Finally in JUne of 02 I had to quit my job, I didn't know what was wrong I just had a constant sense of forboding. That summer was REALLY hot and I had NO airconditioner (on the 2nd floor I might add!) and all the little mold spores were doing their little microscopic dances in the air. I really thought I was losing my mind. I would wake up gasping like I had apnea or something-NOOOO the Sleep Clinic said I had Night Terrors. Such a gentle was to awaken!!! I started having panic attacks-I felt like there was not enough air anywhere. I had thought all along that my symtoms were actually side-effects of the klonopin I was taking at the time. So this "brilliant" neurologist puts me on Halcion! I went from a long acting benzo to one of the shortest acting ones. This did not improve matters (caution understatement in progress!) as I went through 2 weeks of bezo withdrawal AND having my head F***ed with from the mold (stachybotrys, to be more precise). I ended going over to the park around 3 or 4 am to try to sleep most nights There is a HUGE redwood tree over there and after I'd do my walking around the park in the daytime I would just sit next to the tree and cry, pray and sing. I became familiar to a hawk that lived nearby. I spent so much time over there trying to understand why God was allowing me to lose my mind that I witnessed the hawks young as they fledged. I don't mean to burden you (or whoever else reads this)but I'm going to have to talk about all this at the impending deposition finale. I had to move out in 01/03 because the stuff made me so sick the MD told me to get out. So I did. For the next eight months I stayed with my dearly loved Bahai friends (or theirfamily) I lived in four different locaions during this time. Lost my all-time favorite cat. And then by the Grace of God I found a home in the apartment I'm currently residing-it's been a year and a half!!! The thing is I've finally learned to live alone. I had my sons when I was very young and their dad (Vietnam vet) wasn't there at all for them. I faced the scariest thing in my entire life in the last year. I've had to face my abadonment issues. I've had to let go of erroneous beliefs about who I am and those beliefs weren't too happy about being evicted-they fought back and they're MEAN!!
>
> I'm hoping there is something like World Citizens'life part 2. Where I get to finally get to own my personal power and not be afraid of it.
>
> That's it I just ran out of stuff to say. Lucky YOU!
> World Citizen
>
Posted by world citizen on February 19, 2005, at 17:40:37
In reply to Re: Selegiline » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 19, 2005, at 15:47:33
Sloan-Kettering - About Herbs, Botanicals & Other Products: Search ...
... Small scale studies conducted in the early 1980’s suggested DMSO may help to relieve
peripheral neuropathy (1) , post-thoracotomy pain and other non ...
www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/ 11571.cfm?RecordID=560&tab=HC - 81k - Cached - Similar pages
Posted by Elroy on February 21, 2005, at 17:41:43
In reply to Re: Selegiline here's the DMSO site, posted by world citizen on February 19, 2005, at 17:40:37
Have actually found some tidbits of info here and there was some basic research (as relates to neuropathy and DMSO). A lot of the meds available for treatment therapy are specifically engineered for diabetic neuropathy and often discuss returning sensitivity to the numbed areas... In my case I have no numbness, and if anything simply have very sensitive enrves in the form of the pain!
Anyway....
http://www.colecenter.com/therapies/dmso.shtml
http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/dmso_and_vitamin_b12.htmIn a similar fashion have you heard of Emu Oil in dealing with neuropathy pains with a similar action as DMSO?
http://www.emuoilsource.com/painmanagement.html
Some other info:
http://www.mendosa.com/neuro.htm
QUOTE: Numerous clinical trials have demonstrated that Benfotiamine is effective at reducing the pain of diabetic neuropathy, and no side effects or signs of toxicity have emerged. Based on these trials, Benfotiamine has been approved for use as a therapy for neuropathy in Germany for more than a decade. Furthermore, Benfotiamine is not just an pain killer, but actually improves nerve functioning. Free online abstracts of Benfotiamine studies include "Effectiveness of different benfotiamine dosage regimens in the treatment of painful diabetic neuropathy", "Therapeutic efficacy of 'Milgamma' in patients with painful diabetic neuropathy," and "A benfotiamine-vitamin B combination in treatment of diabetic polyneuropathy." END QUOTE
The benfotiamine sounds very interesting, but I wonder if its treatment mechanism is more inclined towards specifically diabetic neuropathy???
A big question that I have is whether or not the meds / supps / protocols will work on other types of neuropathy.... as mine clearly doesn't seem to be diabetic induced.
Also.....
QUOTE: The Food and Drug Administration has approved Pfizer's Lyrica pill to treat nerve pain associated with diabetic neuropathy (and shingles). It is the successor to Pfizer's Neurontin, now also available as a generic. Pfizer hasn't set a date for Lyrica's introduction in the United States or a price. Lyrica will compete with Lilly's Cymbalta, which the F.D.A. cleared in September as a treatment for the pain of peripheral neuropathy. This information comes from http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/01/business/01pfizer.html?oref=login
END QUOTEThe interesting thing about Lyrica is that it also appears to have some very positive effects related to anxiety and depression also (I have found a number of postings on this site concerning Lyrica).
What I find interesting is that Dr. Braverman ("The Edge Effect") lists peripheral neuropathy as one of the disorders of GABA deficiency. Possibly a reason why meds like Lyrica are effective for that type of pain???
> Sloan-Kettering - About Herbs, Botanicals & Other Products: Search ...
> ... Small scale studies conducted in the early 1980’s suggested DMSO may help to relieve
> peripheral neuropathy (1) , post-thoracotomy pain and other non ...
> www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/ 11571.cfm?RecordID=560&tab=HC - 81k - Cached - Similar pages
Posted by world citizen on February 21, 2005, at 21:33:42
In reply to Re: Selegiline here's the DMSO site » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 21, 2005, at 17:41:43
Hey Elroy. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. DMSO is a variation on a theme of MSM,the stuff people take to help their bodies repair itself. I use DMSO for any acute pain I have, with the exception of headache-I'm not sure I want in my hair! I use it when my Fibro gets too bad for the DLPA alone (like when I eat the foods I KNOW I'm senseitive to) and when my neck gets bad (herniated discs-4. It's good if one's knees hurt, lower back etc. I'm pretty sure it can help your neuropathy even if you don't know the origin.
There is a pain med. called Clinoril that it is
ill-advised taking while using DMSO. I don't know why this is or what happens if you combined them.Elroy, the DMSO really does work amazingly well.
World Citizen
Posted by Elroy on February 22, 2005, at 22:36:56
In reply to Re: Selegiline here's the DMSO site, posted by world citizen on February 21, 2005, at 21:33:42
Oh no, no problem, I understood about the DMSO clearly. In fact, my Mom is a Shaklee distributer and somewhat of a health nut and used to employ it (back then) with joint pains, etc. I just found it surprising that one retailer was pointing to the possibility of MSM offering some of those same benefits - but without the DMSO "problems".
Personally, I think that it just might be worth a try. Not only alone, but also as a carrier for B1 and B12 vitamins, and maybe bromelain?
Just a thought....
Of course I still want to look into the possibilities of the "cranial electrotherapy stimulation" devices. They supposedly work on not only anxiety, depression, and insomnia, but also on pain....
Wish I could find more "user feedback" on those....
> Hey Elroy. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. DMSO is a variation on a theme of MSM,the stuff people take to help their bodies repair itself. I use DMSO for any acute pain I have, with the exception of headache-I'm not sure I want in my hair! I use it when my Fibro gets too bad for the DLPA alone (like when I eat the foods I KNOW I'm senseitive to) and when my neck gets bad (herniated discs-4. It's good if one's knees hurt, lower back etc. I'm pretty sure it can help your neuropathy even if you don't know the origin.
>
> There is a pain med. called Clinoril that it is
> ill-advised taking while using DMSO. I don't know why this is or what happens if you combined them.
>
> Elroy, the DMSO really does work amazingly well.
> World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on February 22, 2005, at 23:56:27
In reply to Re: Selegiline here's the DMSO site » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 22, 2005, at 22:36:56
Hey Elroy,
I wanted to ask you something. You had mentioned that you'd stopped drinking alcohol in 2000. (congratulations by the way!) My question is did you have much of a problem with it? The reason I ask is because extensive use of alcolhol can deplete the body of certain B vitamins. One of them, or maybe it's folate, if deficient in the body can cause neuropathy.
I mix the DMSO with some organic lotion and use it on my face. Actually, I take a little fresh bee pollen, smash it up in my palm THEN add my DMSO mixture, mix well and apply liberally. It's VERY nourishing to the skin. I can't tell you how many people remarked on the change in my complexion! (I'm thinking that same combination just might be very nourishing to your feet!)
I got the word today the trial date is still on for next month. I thought for sure the "other side" would try to get a bogus continuane. We'll see!
World Citizen
Posted by Elroy on February 23, 2005, at 16:29:51
In reply to Re: Selegiline here's the DMSO site, posted by world citizen on February 22, 2005, at 23:56:27
Interesting question. Between mid 70s and early 90s would say definitely a heavy social drinker. By mid 90s was cutting back quite a bit and by late 90s was down to mild social drinker. Between 2000 and 2002 I had a very occasional beer or glass of wine. Since 2002... nothing.
That said, I have had one doctor feel that it very well might be alcohol-induced, yet I have had a couple of others say that the onset of this came on so much later - after the cessation of the heavier drinking. I have also been advised that there are really two forms of alcohol-involved PN. One is the type that involved acute alcohol (where the alcohol abuse right at that time is so intense that nerves are literally damaged) and the other type is that type where the abuse is chronic and the nerve damage is more related to on-going malnutrition.
I would point out that during this same time period I was very heavy into working out, weight lifting, and so forth. Also I was big into taking supplements (vitamins, minerals, extra protein, etc.). No, no steroids, ever at any time. Also I watched my weight to a degree as I did some minor level competitive weight lifting and needed to be aware of weight limits. So the point is that I seriously doubt if there was any nutrient malnutrition going on.
Frustratingly, I have my endo indicating to me that this (the PN) is probably directly related to the elevated cortisol, I have info from Cushings support boards that indicate numerous of their members have PN symptoms, and yet I have experts from PN forums telling me that they can't see any way that it could be cortisol related... which then bums me out further that there could be yet something else going on??? It just seems too "coincidental" that ALL of these symptoms (anxiety, hypogonadism, UTI-type symptoms, strong PN type symptoms, and tinnitus) all came on with 2 - 3 weeks of each other and subsequent highly elevated cortisol levels were found. Actually the severe anxiety came on first (June 2004) and then after about week or two was followed by the other symptoms which came out within 2 - 3 weeks of each other.
Now it's like they're feeding off of each other. The high anxiety (even with the Xanax) boosts the tinnitus or maybe another day it's the PN and then the PN is elevated one day and jacks up the anxiety. And in the background is the constant elevated cortisol - which may actually be the "Bad Guy" behind everything.
>
>
> Hey Elroy,
>
> I wanted to ask you something. You had mentioned that you'd stopped drinking alcohol in 2000. (congratulations by the way!) My question is did you have much of a problem with it? The reason I ask is because extensive use of alcolhol can deplete the body of certain B vitamins. One of them, or maybe it's folate, if deficient in the body can cause neuropathy.
>
> I mix the DMSO with some organic lotion and use it on my face. Actually, I take a little fresh bee pollen, smash it up in my palm THEN add my DMSO mixture, mix well and apply liberally. It's VERY nourishing to the skin. I can't tell you how many people remarked on the change in my complexion! (I'm thinking that same combination just might be very nourishing to your feet!)
>
> I got the word today the trial date is still on for next month. I thought for sure the "other side" would try to get a bogus continuane. We'll see!
>
> World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on February 24, 2005, at 0:22:57
In reply to Re: Selegiline here's the DMSO site » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 23, 2005, at 16:29:51
So Elroy, would the 7-Keto be a problem for you? I'm not aware if it can be turned into estrogen in your system. The OTHER thing that accurs to me is thatyou might have been exposed to some sort of toxin-environmental, food additives (by the way, you don't use aspartame, do you? It is very neurotoxic and causes other problems as well!!!) Maybe if you had hair analysis done you might find a culprit. Did you get any tooth fillings during that time frame, mercury is incredibly toxic. It might just be that your cortisol went crazy because of the crap that was going on in your life. Have you considered therapy so you might process this stuff and perhaps come up with ways of relaxing and letting go so as to reduce your cortisol? I'm just asking, I have not a clue.
World Citizen
Posted by Elroy on February 24, 2005, at 19:02:56
In reply to Re: Selegiline here's the DMSO site, posted by world citizen on February 24, 2005, at 0:22:57
No, I don't believe that 7-KETO would be a problem (specifically that version of DHEA). In fact, it is on my definite "To Try" list. Especially since it also has a known anti-cortisol effect.
As to aspartame, in my efforts to stay away from sugar, I used to consume that occasionally. Very little however as I just haven't been much into sweets (diet food style or otherwise). I have since replaced it with (mainly) stevia and occasionally sucralose....
As to: "It might just be that your cortisol went crazy because of the crap that was going on in your life."
I think that is a very likely scenario. I think that I had slightly elevated cortisol for several years (let's say 1996 - 1999), with a "bump up" then from 2000 - 2002. There was some on-going therapy between July 2002 and early Feb 2004 (which I think caused the cortisol to plaeau off if not recede slightly... but overall, I think that the HP Axis was already "mostly broken" and just waiting for the right trigger). The therapy (and Ambien) was stopped as I "was better" (in fact was feeling greater than I had in years). Then in June of 2004 there was then a family loss situation that provided that trigger and there was suddenly a huge amount of anxiety. That was then soon followed by hypogonadism, strong peripheral neuropathy symptoms, strong UTI type symptoms, and tinnitus... with the first starting within about 2 weeks of the anxiety onset and all of them surfacing within about 2 - 3 weeks of each other! So I think that in one sense the chronic anxiety stressed (over-stressed) the HPA Axis which resulted in chronic high levels of cortisol. The chronic high levels of cortisol enhanced the anxiety and the very severe anxiety "broke" the HPA Axis, causing a steady flood of excessive cortisol which - along with the anxiety - caused the rapid onset of the various physical disorders.
As to: "Have you considered therapy so you might process this stuff and perhaps come up with ways of relaxing and letting go so as to reduce your cortisol?"....
Yes.
First response (after the PCP visits with a Kouple of Klowns) was with endos - as I knew that there was something going on wrong "inside". That's when the super low Test and the super high cortisol was found.
Then I fired things back up with the Psych Doc as the anxiety levels were just continuing to escalate - and I knew that whereas that first time I got away with no meds (other than herbal SJW), that this time around the anxiety was so severe that meds were going to be needed. Plus I later found out that Xanax has been shown to be quite beneficial for several types of tinnitus.
But hands-on therapy is now the next stage coming up. I am starting things back up with my prior therapist in a couple of weeks. Plus I found out that she is now advanced trained in that EMDR technology so she's going to incorporate that therapy.
See: http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=4144
I am also considering adding in the Redirecting Self Therapy into the mix.
See: http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=4083
Finally, I believe that the brain neurotransmitters are completely out of balance and that some need boosting (see Dr. Braverman's book, "The Edge Effect"), so I am going to simultaneously address those particulars with specific nutrients and the use of a CES device.
Oh... and on top of all of that, I'm going to address the cortisol levels directly by escalting use of anti-cortisol supps - and maybe trying to actually talk my endo into doing the short-term RU486 therapy for stopping cortisol and re-setting the HPA Axis.
Anxieties and depressions that do not respond effectively to early efforts to correct brain neurotransmiiters are - IMHO - very likely to be a result of a broken HPA Axis... especially, I believe, in scenarios where anxiety started first and depression came in later. Anyway, the system cannot completely turn off the Fight Or Flight Mechanism so until the HPA Axis gets "re-set", the meds don't work, or do for a while and then stop working, and the various therapy approaches either don't work, or work very, very slowly.
Anyway, there has been some interesting research done into the use of RU486 for treating severe depression (and would work similarly IMO in cases of anxiety, etc. that were related to elevated cortisol - which we KNOW exists in my case).
See:
http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/depression/psychotic.asp (this is my type of depression... active, anxious, agitated)
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p040592.html
http://www2.eclinicalpsychiatrynews.com/scripts/om.dll/serve?action=searchDB&searchDBfor=art&artType=full&id=aqc04032616
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/nnp/research/publication/18411
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2000/november8/ru486-1108.html
http://www.wctv6.com/news/features/1/326156.html
http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/depression/psychotic_ru486.asp
>
> So Elroy, would the 7-Keto be a problem for you? I'm not aware if it can be turned into estrogen in your system. The OTHER thing that accurs to me is thatyou might have been exposed to some sort of toxin-environmental, food additives (by the way, you don't use aspartame, do you? It is very neurotoxic and causes other problems as well!!!) Maybe if you had hair analysis done you might find a culprit. Did you get any tooth fillings during that time frame, mercury is incredibly toxic. It might just be that your cortisol went crazy because of the crap that was going on in your life. Have you considered therapy so you might process this stuff and perhaps come up with ways of relaxing and letting go so as to reduce your cortisol? I'm just asking, I have not a clue.
> World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on February 24, 2005, at 20:29:10
In reply to Re: Selegiline here's the DMSO site » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 24, 2005, at 19:02:56
Hey Elroy,
I don't know if you've heard of Dr. John Lee or not I've got several of his books. He addresses male hormone issues as well as female, here is his site;
www.johnleemd.comI'm VERY happy to hear you're going to continue the therapy, sometimes we need to have our issues heard so we can process them!
World Citizen!
Posted by world citizen on February 25, 2005, at 23:40:18
In reply to Re: Selegiline here's the DMSO site » world citizen, posted by Elroy on February 24, 2005, at 19:02:56
Elroy, have you ever heard of tribulus?
I don't have a specific site for you. But I looked it up on the internet after being reminded by a friend. This stuff is for guys. It reduces CORTISOL and reduces DEPRESSION. This stuff is for real!! My son took it and had very good results, he's the one that reminded me of it's efficacy. He recommended a specific brand-I cant' remember at the moment but will consult with him further over the weekend and get back to you.
I hope all is well!
World Citizen!
Posted by Elroy on February 27, 2005, at 18:43:41
In reply to Re: Selegiline here's the DMSO site, posted by world citizen on February 25, 2005, at 23:40:18
Yes, have heard of it and tried it. Did nothing for me. The extremely elevated cortisol basically shut down the sex hormone production and required a full-fledged testosterone replacement therapy. The TRT uses AndroGel where a bioidentical form of testosterone is used. It becomes an expensive pharmaceutical substance NOT becuse of the testosterone... since it's bio-identical, the Pharma cannot patent the testosterone so it has to devise and patent the DELIVERY mechanism... and then charge the consumer an ungodly amount of money. With my insurance coverage and buying 90-day lots in advance, it ends up costing (co-pay) me less than what the comparable amount of tribulus would - and in my circumstances, the tribulus wouldn't work anyway!
P.S. Have also read some recent stuff that DHEA (incl 7-KETO version) doesn't really reduce elevated cortisol levels, but that it simply increases DHEA levels which modifies the DHEA/cortisol ratio os as to make cortisol levels seem lesser only in comparison to DHEA levels. Not a bad thing, in fact is a good thing, but not what I need right now. My DHEA levels aren't in the top 20% but they aren't low either. I have a bigger concern to get the cortisol levels down - permanently - into normal ranges....
Posted by mogger on March 9, 2005, at 19:26:36
In reply to Re: Taking selegiline for a long time questions, posted by world citizen on February 12, 2005, at 14:51:07
Hi there, my sister is trying Selegiline and her doctor has her at 20 mg per day for her depression. Is this the normal dose? Many thanks for your thoughts,
mogger
Posted by Elroy on March 9, 2005, at 21:37:43
In reply to Selegiline, therapeutic dose for depression?, posted by mogger on March 9, 2005, at 19:26:36
I am by no means an MD, but I would personally be much more inclined towards going with LOW DOSE Selegiline (that means 15mg or less, usally more specifically 5mg or 10mg) combined with low-to-moderate dose of amino acid DLPA. Not only seems to be a much "safer" way to go, but my research indicates that much more positive results are gained with this approach.
Either have her doctor research that aspect, or maybe provide him yourself with some printed out articles from some of these links:
http://www.smart-drugs.com/ias-Info/ias-deprenyl.htm
QUOTE: Depression Several studies have suggested that like non-selective monoamine oxidase inhibitors such as phenelzine, selegiline may be of some benefit in depression. Mendlewicz and Youdim reported a marked improvement in 14 patients with unipolar or bipolar depression who received selegiline hydrochloride 5 mg three times daily for 40 days compared with 13 patients given placebo. (1) Similarly, Birkmayer et al. reported benefit in an uncontrolled study in 102 outpatients and 53 inpatients with unipolar depression who received selegiline hydrochloride 5 to 10 mg daily in association with phenylalanine 250 mg daily- about 70% of these patients, in whom conventional antidepressants were not effective, were reported as having complete remission. END QUOTEI don't have the sources for these handy, but:
QUOTE: Several studies have suggested that like non-selective monoamine oxidase inhibitors such as phenelzine, selegiline may be of some benefit in depression. Mendlewicz and Youdim reported a marked improvement in 14 patients with unipolar or bipolar depression who received selegiline hydrochloride 5 mg three times daily for 40 days compared with 13 patients given placebo. (1) Similarly, Birkmayer et al. reported benefit in an uncontrolled study in 102 outpatients and 53 inpatients with unipolar depression who received selegiline hydrochloride 5 to 10 mg daily in association with phenylalanine 250 mg daily- about 70% of these patients, in whom conventional antidepressants were not effective, were reported as having complete remission. (2) END QUOTE
QUOTE: The antidepressive efficacy of L-deprenyl (5-10 mg daily) plus L-phenylalanine (250 mg/day) has been evaluated in 155 unipolar depressed patients. Both oral and intravenous administration showed beneficial effects in 90% of outpatients and 80.5% of inpatients. It is concluded that this combined treatment has a potent antidepressive action based on the accumulation of L-phenylethylamine in the brain. END QUOTE
http://www.selegiline.com/pea.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20041211/msgs/430276.html
Note: L-deprenyl and Segeline are same thing. DLPA is a form of phenylethylamine that combines both the D-version and the L-version...
Just my thoughts on this. Have doctor check out this possible option as both a better and safer alternative???
> Hi there, my sister is trying Selegiline and her doctor has her at 20 mg per day for her depression. Is this the normal dose? Many thanks for your thoughts,
> mogger
Posted by world citizen on March 9, 2005, at 23:02:45
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » mogger, posted by Elroy on March 9, 2005, at 21:37:43
Okay here is my testimonial! Can I hear an amen?
No really, I've been taking DLPA since '99-00 with blessed effects on both chronic pain and depression. I began taking Selegiline in '02. I've been taking 5mgs approx. one half hour after taking my DLPA, B6, vit.c and some form of simple carbohydrat. I take the Selegiline with a good amount of protein. Sometimes when I get distracted by the world at large I forget to take it for a while, sometimes weeks at a time. Yes, I can definately tell the difference when I take it. The thing is, it's very easy for me to think that I don't need it anymore due to the fact that it stays in the brain (in decreasing concentration) for about 2 weeks, as is the customary way of MAOIs. So one can still get the benefits without taking it every day, or without worrying about missing a day! BUT! Every day that goes by the confusion increases and sorrow grows.
I had horrible side effects with both tricyclic and SSRI antidepressants. I can't say I've noticed any side effects with Selegiline
AND! I've been taking the TMG for a few weeks (in addition to my other suppliments) I feel great! I'm going through one of the most stressful times in my life but I'm handling it. I must say I give a good percentage of the credit for my progress to God in the many ways He provides guidance (including Selegiline!)
World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on March 9, 2005, at 23:10:02
In reply to Selegiline, therapeutic dose for depression?, posted by mogger on March 9, 2005, at 19:26:36
I agree with Elroy, I think that's WAY to high a dose. Has your sister been profoundly depressed or what? At that dose is when the whole question of the tyromine problem comes up. If you go to the sites that Elroy reccomended then surely you could come up with some quotes from individuals with a sufficient amount of initials following their names. Have your sister take that in to the MD so he/she can continue his/her medical education!!!!!!!!!!
Just because someone has a license to practice medicine this doesn't guarantee that they were an A student in medical school!
World Citizen
Posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 1:13:11
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » mogger, posted by Elroy on March 9, 2005, at 21:37:43
Thanks so much for your thoughts, I will discuss it with her doctor. Are the amino acids critical or will she have positive effects even without the amino acids?
mogger
Posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 1:45:15
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on February 19, 2005, at 2:02:23
world citizen,
do you have to take the amino acid to get benefits from selegiline or can you feel some benefits on it's own? many thanks,
mogger
Posted by KaraS on March 10, 2005, at 2:55:10
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » mogger, posted by Elroy on March 9, 2005, at 21:37:43
Elroy,
Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
Kara
Posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 11:42:42
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 1:45:15
Mogger,that information is not accessable to me at the moment. If you email joe@dancesafe.org and ask him he'll be able to bring some clarity to this issue for you.
World Citizenps when I find out I'll email you with it immediately, in the meantime please email joe.
Posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 12:40:52
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 1:45:15
Hey Mogger,
according to Dr. Bob at www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel your sister might do well to consume some high quality whey protein 20 min. prior to taking the Selegiline. The site above has extensive information about enhancing the effect of S.WARNING! Anyone subject to drug testing may test positive for methamphetamine while taking Selegiline as meth is a weak metabolite of Selegeline (no buzz).
World Citizen
Posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 13:17:40
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 12:40:52
Thanks for the input World Citizen, I am checking that site out now.
moggger
Posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 20:46:10
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 10, 2005, at 2:55:10
Kara,
Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.> Elroy,
>
> Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
>
> Kara
Posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 21:16:20
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 1:13:11
The DPLA - or at least the L-phenylalanine amino acid - is critical in this combination. The DPLA basically (and this is a real thumbnail sketch type of summarization) releases the dopamine and PEA and the (very low dose) selegiline simply keeps the dopamine and PEA active in the brain much longer than they normally would be. OEA especially has a very short half-life in the brain... something like less than a minute (unless the deprenyl is present).
Some people do better with one dose in the morning only. Others do better with half the dose in the morning and half the dose in very early afternoon. Not good to take it later int eh day only because it can be quite energizing and create some sleep problems if taken too late.
I have also read some material that also taking L-Theanine (during day), GABA (during the day), TMG (or samE "sammy", but TMG does the same thing cheaper) and 5-HTP(taking the 5-HTP on empty stomach at bedtime) all are also helpful in improving the effects of the deprenyl and creating a situation where brain neurotransmitters are balanced.
Find a copy of the book "The Edge Effect" by Doctor Eric Braverman and read it thoroughly for a much better understanding of the aspects of the brain's neurotransmitters, correcting deficiencies in brain neurotranmitters, and balancing and optimizing them.
I believe that it goes a long way towards explaining why SSRIs (serotonin) simply don't work on a lot of people or aren't that effective over the long haul. If one has a primarily GABA deficiency and mild serotonin deficiency then taking SSRI type ADs will provide a little help, but overall not much... which would only make sense since the GABA deficiency isn't being addressed!
The "Edge Effect" has a comprehensive test in it that you can take to pretty fairly determine your neurotransmitter dominance. And then another one to determine your neurotransmitter deciciecy (or deficiencies).
I took them and found that I had a dopamine dominant brain and primary deficiencies in Dopamine and secondarily in GABA with mild deficiency in Acetylcholine and almost NONE in serotonin.
So SSRIs wouldn't make much sense in my situation (and has NOT worked well the couple times tried), but the recently taken deprenyl / DPLA / B6 combination has worked wonders... as it should seeing as how there apparently was a serious dopamine deficiency!
Interestingly Xanax works thru GABA pathways, but I have recently (yesterday) been started on Neurontin for some neuropathic pain relief and it works even more strongly on the GABA system so may very well end up being able to wean completely off the Xanax while on the Neurontin.
Ideally - as Braverman discusses in his book - through proper supplementation via concentrated nutrients one can get to that state where deficiencies are corrected, and balancing and optimizing is going on... and meds can be either completely dropped or at least significantly minimized!
> Thanks so much for your thoughts, I will discuss it with her doctor. Are the amino acids critical or will she have positive effects even without the amino acids?
> mogger
Posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 21:29:45
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 12:40:52
Can't get that link to open up to anything....
Is that the full link?
www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel
Does not seem to have a proper "ending"....
Another good site describing proper syupplementations to consider in more strictly anxiety / panic attack type situations:
http://www.restoreunity.org/panic_attacks.htm
Some others:
http://www.restoreunity.org/blocking_reabsorption_of_seroton.htm
> Hey Mogger,
> according to Dr. Bob at www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel your sister might do well to consume some high quality whey protein 20 min. prior to taking the Selegiline. The site above has extensive information about enhancing the effect of S.
>
> WARNING! Anyone subject to drug testing may test positive for methamphetamine while taking Selegiline as meth is a weak metabolite of Selegeline (no buzz).
> World Citizen
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