![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 36 to 60 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by KaraS on July 25, 2004, at 19:48:25
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on July 25, 2004, at 10:06:06
> > Hi Lar,
> >
> > It's time to at least start on some of my questions for you since you raised the issue of adrenal fatigue. It got me to thinking about a lot of my symptoms and wondering now if they're adrenal exhaustion, a manifestation of atypical depression or some combination of both. How does one tell the difference?
>
> If reading about both syndromes came with that little light bulb, then my intuition is that both are valid representations of your difficulties. One differentiates, I suppose, by trying the recommended treatments for each.
>
> The concepts themselves are theoretical. The rationale for treatment is theoretical. The treatments are empirical. A witchdoctor treating a patient for spirit possession by exposing the subject to the spiritual vibration of a plant might yet be providing a dose of an active chemical. It may be a collective conceit to think we've moved much beyond the witchdoctor himself.
>Ah, yes, the placebo effect. I've been reading all about it's half-life on the main board.
> > I mentioned to you about how I start the day so slowly and how I don't usually come alive or feel normal until late in the afternoon. I've been thinking that my depression is atypical because of the lethargy but I recently read that atypicals tend to do better in the morning and regress as the day goes on. If that's correct, then that might be a clue for me.
>
> There is an inverse of the atypical trend, it has a name, but I can't think of it. In any case, current thinking is that "morning best = atypical" is not valid. http://www.mhsource.com/expert/exp1061200e.html
>
> The key symptoms of atypical seem to be hypersomnia and hyperphagia. Oversleeping and overeating.I have hypersomnia but not hyperphagia. I have a healthy appetite now, no more & no less than that. Still not sure if I'm atypical and/or if the hypersomnia is due to adrenal fatigue. I agree with you, though, that it really doesn't matter. I need to treat the symptoms.
>
> > OTOH, few people are a perfect clear cut case for any of the classifcations of depression. In fact, when I read the descriptions I inevitably find aspects of major depression, melancholia and dysthmia that relate to me. (I'm a lot of fun to hang out with!)
>
> Mood reactivity is an element of atypical depression. You can still get happy about a pleasant experience. It's the crushing fatigue that limits the response.
>I'm not completely anhedonic so that makes sense.
> > But getting back to the adrenal fatigue... I've always been a night owl. How do I know that my condition is not just diurnal variation? Wouldn't too much MAO produce the same symptoms?
>
> So might mitochondrial dysfunction. The focus needs to be on interventions, ultimately. What to do? If excess MAO is a thought, then a trial of an MAOI makes sense. Etc. Validation of a model may never occur, though.
>How does one treat mitochondrial dysfunction? (co-Q10? Phosphatidylserine? NAC?) Is that even possible?
> > If I don't sleep much, I come alive much sooner in the day. I'm not as groggy and brain dead. I have more energy and I'm not nearly as depressed. Unfortunately, I can't do that very often as I end up feeling sick a day or two later. Hmmm... that might argue for both too much MAO and adrenal fatigue, couldn't it?
>
> Sleep deprivation is a valid treatment for atypical depression. I think SAD, too. Disturbances in the diurnal rhythm are probably best addressed with light therapy, as used for Seasonal Affective Disorder. Hypersomnia precludes the pineal gland from receiving proper diurnal synchronizing stimuli (e.g. morning light). Once out of synchrony, hypersomnia can lock in. Do you have any seasonality to your mood/energy?
>No seasonality that I've noticed here in southern California where it's sunny most of the time. I did get worse in winter time when I lived back east. I have a light box that I am going to start using again. I read recently (in the article that you recommended?) to reset your time clock using a lightbox, methylcobalamin (B3), and/or melatonin. That will definitely be a part of my healing program.
> > There are a few other things I should mention that might make the waters even murkier. I probably have an overabundance of candida yeast from antibiotics and too much sugar.
>
> Candidiasis is a controversial diagnosis. However, controversy or not, restoration of normalized intestinal fauna and flora can make a big difference. Probiotics, particularly those with the greatest diversity of species, are sometimes very useful.
>
Can I take your response to mean that you are one of the ones who do not believe in it? I don't know if I do but would like to err on the side of safety and try to stabilize the situation. I was planning on starting the diet (not necessary?) and I purchased NOW brand "Candida Clear" with Pau D'Arco, Oregano Oil, Black Walnut and Caprylic Acid. I also bought probiotics (Enzymatic Therapy's Acidophilus Pearls as I've read that they hold up well and don't need to be refrigerated).How about triphala? Any thoughts on that? Can/should it be taken along with probiotics?
> > I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis
>
> Geez. We don't understand that one very well at all.We know that it's an autoimmune problem. We just don't know why the body attacks its own thyroxine.
>
> > and I was diagnosed with CFS almost 20 years ago. My CFS is not what most people think of when they think of that syndrome. There are so many conditions and viruses that get misdiagnosed or labeled as CFS because they just don't know what the hell they really are.
>
> There is no specific virus that necessarily triggers CFS, but I do lean towards a viral etiology.
My point was that there is so much that is labeled CFS but we just don't know what the causes are. Some could be viral. Others not. Too much is labeled CFS and thrown into one category. In my case I believe it's viral. I don't know about anyone else's case. Some who are diagnosed with this have much different symptomology than I have.>
> > One day when I was incredibly worn out, I got a horrible flu that included stomach symptoms, nausea, swollen glands, sore throat etc. It got better gradually and then a few days later I'd get it again. This went on for years. There's no doubt in my mind that it's viral. (I've known of 3 other people with exactly the same symptoms.) As time went on, the "attacks" started to occur less frequently. I would even go months without it. Now, it only seems to happen if I get really run down. I'm sorry to run on so but I think it might help if you knew what some of the other factors involved are.
>
> Many viral infections are lifelong. Herpes zoster (chicken pox) emerges decades later as shingles.Yes, my sense with my CFS is that it will always be there. My immune system has learned to deal with it better but it is always there lurking and ready to strike should my defenses let down.
>
> Have you considered the possibility that you might be infected by a non-viral, non-bacterial agent? Mycoplasma, (oh, my brain is shutting down)...there are other possible infective agents.
>No, I hadn't. I'll have to do some research.
> > Some other issues of mine that might also be important are that I've had a lot of allergy problems in the last few years including cholinergic urticaria when I exercise (which hasn't been that often). The last time few times I've taken a walk, I feel good at the time but then an hour or two later I'm exhausted and have to sleep. I'm menopausal as well.
>
> Okay, I can't give you personal experience on the menopause. Andropause, yes, but not menopause.
>You're too young for Andropause!
> I've had life-long inhalant allergies, and I often require steroids just to breathe. Last year, I did a trial of NADH (reduced nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide) for fatigue, and my allergies and asthma disappeared. Not reduced. Absent. Also, the anti-histaminic effects of niacinamide are well-known. I'm thinking there might be a connection to B3 metabolism. What do you think?Interesting. Are you oversleeping or do you have a sleep/wake cycle that's off? I'm thinking that if B3 is used to reset the sleep cycle and it's also involved with histamine, then malfuncioning of it's metabolism could be responsible for my allergies, urticaria AND sleep/wake cycle problems??? Am I way off here or do you follow me?
>
> You see why I love questions so? Not only am I just the most geekiest of geeks when it comes to questions (the world is so fascinating, I sometimes forget to eat for whole days while I research something), but I get distracted, and forget all about stuff like what works for me and that I need to buy some and I need to remember to take it and all of that. Absent-minded professor is not apt. Distracted professor. That's the label.
>You are too funny. I can just see you researching for days on end and forgetting to eat, sleep etc. I never forget to eat. Oh, I forgot to add to my list of ailments that I'm hypoglycemic. That never lets me forget to eat. I doubt that I would anyway. I enjoy it too much.
> > I must sound like a mess to you but surprisingly, I still present well.
>
> Oh, honey, you don't wanna hear my list. ;-) And presenting well.....I have great facility with language (I'm a powerful speaker), and my geek-brain is a core trait. I've had doctors refuse to accept that I was anything but a malingerer.
>Isn't that the most frustrating thing? And they're so smug about it. I want them to know what a disservice they do to their patients when they respond like that. It's all about their egos - if they don't know what's wrong with you, then there can't possibly be anything wrong with you. It's the "I don't know therefore I diagnose hypochondria" rule.
> > Ironically, I still look like I'm in good shape and I look younger than I really am. (The last nurse practitioner I saw was alarmed that I was having menopausal symptoms until told of my age so I think it's legit.)
>
> That's a pretty good clue.
>
> > My sense of humor is still intact.
>
> Geez, without that, where would we be?There have been times in the past when I was anhedonic and had no sense of humor to fall back on. Not fun. I imagine you've been there as well.
>
> > All of this deceives most people (esp. my family and friends) who think that I'm just lazy. They don't get it that I just don't have the energy or the motivation to get a job or take care of my apartment.
>
> Oh, I know. I know.
>
> > At any rate, I know that it's critical for me now to diagnose this correctly because otherwise treatment of the wrong condition could make things so much worse.
>
> I'm not so sure of that, if you choose wisely. The diagnoses arise from symptoms and their treatments. Diagnoses are patterns linking the two. What modern medicine sometimes forgets, IMHO, is that diagnosis is nothing more than a memnonic for the link between symptom and treatment. Many doctors treat from diagnosis, once that decision is made, rather than from presenting symptom(s).
>
> > I had been planning on trying everything noradrenergic and/or dopaminergic until I found relief. However, if adrenal fatigue is a major factor here then I'd, in effect, be whipping a dead horse (or a very sick one), wouldn't I? (metaphor not simile, right?)
>
> I'll answer the second question first. Yes. Metaphor is symbolic. Simile is comparative.
>
> Notice how I built in my cognitive escape route,
> above? "not...if you choose wisely"
>You're so slick, Hooverman.
> Treatment for adrenal fatigue is two-fold. One, is to let the adrenals rest. They're already whipped. Two, is to address the dysregulated signal that is whipping the adrenals. In other words, the problem isn't in the adrenals to begin with.
>So you're saying to deal with the stressors that got me to this place to begin with. Easier said than done but I'll be working on it.
> Yes, adding dopaminergic and noradrenergic stimuli would be counterproductive. Your focus ought to be more on mitochondrial activation. That's more like Dr. Pall.
>Don't know anything about his/her work. Can you recommend a book or give me a first name? The article you had me read advised taking l-tyrosine every day though I'm not sure why. I think they recommended 500 mg. I didn't feel any antidepressant effects when I took it before but if it's going to help my adrenal situation, then I'll go back on it. I already have some here.
> > What I'd like to do right now is go to a good holistic Dr. and get a lot of testing done. I know of 2 near me who fit the bill but I can't afford to see them right now.
>
> If I win the lottery, I'll send you.You're a sweetheart. Thanks. I'll hold you to it. Do you play the lottery regularly? (Just trying to assess the odds of that happening...)
>
> > Thanks for listening and considering all of this, Dr. Hoover.
>
> You're too kind.
>
> > Let me know your thoughts when you get a chance.
>
> Try and shut me up. ;-)
>I wouldn't think of it! The rest of the babblers would be all over me. I wouldn't survive it.
Thanks again,
Kara
>
> You're welcome,
> Lar
Posted by KaraS on July 25, 2004, at 19:51:50
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » simus, posted by Larry Hoover on July 25, 2004, at 10:09:05
> > I have never been diagnosed with CFS, but I had mono among other viruses that have had this effect on me.
>
> The Epstein-Barr virus is probably totally underestimated by current medical wisdom. No other virus is more closely linked to CFS.
>
I thought that was what the medical community considered in the early years of CFS but that they are much less inclined to see E-B virus as the cause these days.Kara
> > Again, sorry to interrupt. I hope all goes well for you.
> >
> > God bless,
> >
> > Simus
>
> Aaaackkk! I'm interrupting, not you.
>
> Lar
Posted by KaraS on July 25, 2004, at 20:38:01
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry, posted by KaraS on July 25, 2004, at 19:51:50
> > > I have never been diagnosed with CFS, but I had mono among other viruses that have had this effect on me.
> >
> > The Epstein-Barr virus is probably totally underestimated by current medical wisdom. No other virus is more closely linked to CFS.
> >
>
>
> I thought that was what the medical community considered in the early years of CFS but that they are much less inclined to see E-B virus as the cause these days.
>
> Kara
>
>
> > > Again, sorry to interrupt. I hope all goes well for you.
> > >
> > > God bless,
> > >
> > > Simus
> >
> > Aaaackkk! I'm interrupting, not you.
> >
> > Lar
>
>Also, Larry, I just did a little research on Dr. Pall and found an article at ImmuneSupport.com. I found something interesting:
"Possibly the most intriguing such mechanism relates to the widespread use of vitamin B12 injections in treatment of CFS (3). Two forms of vitamin B12 are being used here, hydroxocobalamin, which is a nitric oxide scavenger and cyanocobalamin, which is converted to hydroxocobalamin by Pall human cells (3). These observations suggest that the nitric oxide/peroxynitrite proposed mechanism for CFS makes useful predictions for effective treatment."
and
"Cobalamin used in chronic fatigue syndrome therapy is a nitric oxide scavenger."
Here's the address:
http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm?ID=2976
There it is again. B3 involved again (along with mitochondria) for CFS this time. I have been taking 1 gm methylcobalamin some mornings sublingually but it definitely looks like I should increase that if it is related to CFS, adrenal fatigue, allergy/histamine response and it's involved with restting your clock. A common thread in so many of my maladies. Coincidence? I think not (but what the hell do I know?)Kara
Posted by KaraS on July 25, 2004, at 23:29:21
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog and CFS?- Larry, posted by KaraS on July 25, 2004, at 20:38:01
Also, Larry, I forgot to comment on your allergy situation. What a drag to have to use cortisone just to be able to breathe. I can't believe that the NADH completely made the problem go away. And you're not taking it now (with the TMG) why?
If niacinamide could make that severe an allergic response go away, then what else can't it do?
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 28, 2004, at 13:23:40
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry, posted by KaraS on July 25, 2004, at 19:48:25
Hey Kara. I'm kind of distracted right now. I'm not ignoring you. I want to make sure I give you my full attention when I do. That mercury/amalgam thing was hanging over my brain for a while, and I got it outta the way. I'm still sore from the MRI last night (I'm a big lad, skeletally, and my shoulders just didn't squarsh down into that little tube thingie very comfortably at all). 45 minutes, don't move. No problemo. I couldn't have moved if I wanted to. I'm getting ready to go on vacation, too (a romantic situation, sorry ladies), and when I get back I have a bone marrow biopsy. I'm going to be doing some self-care stuff, but I'll see what I can turn my brain towards.
Later,
Lar
Posted by simus on July 28, 2004, at 15:24:51
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on July 28, 2004, at 13:23:40
Wow, Larry! And through all of this, you still have enough compassion to help us all...
> That mercury/amalgam thing was hanging over my brain for a while, and I got it outta the way.
Did you have an amalgam filling removed? I feel just awful for a couple of weeks after they mess with my amalgam fillings, but almost all are composite now.
> I'm still sore from the MRI last night (I'm a big lad, skeletally, and my shoulders just didn't squarsh down into that little tube thingie very comfortably at all).
I was just reading of a new MRI devise in our area where you don't have to be squarshed down into that little tube thingie. It's about time!!! Hey! I just realized I finally understand your technical jargon!!! Those nutrients must be making me smarter!
> I'm getting ready to go on vacation, too (a romantic situation, sorry ladies),
Awww...
and when I get back I have a bone marrow biopsy.
??? Are you facing something serious, Larry? (You don't have to answer.)
Simus
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 28, 2004, at 15:56:14
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » Larry Hoover, posted by simus on July 28, 2004, at 15:24:51
> Wow, Larry! And through all of this, you still have enough compassion to help us all...
<spock eyebrow>
> > That mercury/amalgam thing was hanging over my brain for a while, and I got it outta the way.
>
> Did you have an amalgam filling removed? I feel just awful for a couple of weeks after they mess with my amalgam fillings, but almost all are composite now.There was a thread on the health board, and I promised to get back to them to post from my archives, but I couldn't access the files (old hard drive, read problem). Here's my post:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/health/20040523/msgs/371165.html
> > I'm still sore from the MRI last night (I'm a big lad, skeletally, and my shoulders just didn't squarsh down into that little tube thingie very comfortably at all).
>
> I was just reading of a new MRI devise in our area where you don't have to be squarshed down into that little tube thingie. It's about time!!!Well, we got the little tube kind. They literally had to squeeze me in by hand (two tries), and later, had to help me up off the table.
On one of the seven scans, the tech said I moved, so they had to do it over again. Same thing happened. I've got news for them. I couldn't move, but I could feel the whole machine move when they did that one. I was still. Their machine moved.
> Hey! I just realized I finally understand your technical jargon!!! Those nutrients must be making me smarter!
Ya, that must be it! YAY!
> > I'm getting ready to go on vacation, too (a romantic situation, sorry ladies),
>
> Awww...I can blame it all on Bob, too.
> and when I get back I have a bone marrow biopsy.
>
> ??? Are you facing something serious, Larry? (You don't have to answer.)
>
> SimusProbably not, but maybe. I don't relish the idea of the procedure at all. If the experts think it's a good idea, then it's a good idea. I don't think I could be objective. Sometimes thorough is a good idea, and that's all there is to that.
Lar
Posted by simus on July 28, 2004, at 16:42:54
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » simus, posted by Larry Hoover on July 28, 2004, at 15:56:14
Hey Larry,
I hope I didn't come off as sounding sarcastic. I really do think you are a great person and I appreciate all the help. When I don't understand the technical terms you use, you have always been so kind to take the time to explain it to me and haven't belittled me at all. =)
Have a great vacation, but hurry back!
Simus
P.S. Wow! (the amalgam/mercury information)
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 28, 2004, at 16:50:50
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » Larry Hoover, posted by simus on July 28, 2004, at 16:42:54
> Hey Larry,
>
> I hope I didn't come off as sounding sarcastic. I really do think you are a great person and I appreciate all the help.Oh, geez, now I gotta splain.
I have trouble accepting compliments, especially if they're about stuff that I want to do. I get a little weirded out, maybe cuz I'm shy or something.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 29, 2004, at 6:58:57
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog and CFS?- Larry, posted by KaraS on July 25, 2004, at 20:38:01
> > > > I have never been diagnosed with CFS, but I had mono among other viruses that have had this effect on me.
> > >
> > > The Epstein-Barr virus is probably totally underestimated by current medical wisdom. No other virus is more closely linked to CFS.
> > >
> >
> >
> > I thought that was what the medical community considered in the early years of CFS but that they are much less inclined to see E-B virus as the cause these days.
> >
> > Kara
> >
> >
> > > > Again, sorry to interrupt. I hope all goes well for you.
> > > >
> > > > God bless,
> > > >
> > > > Simus
> > >
> > > Aaaackkk! I'm interrupting, not you.
> > >
> > > Lar
> >
> >
>
> Also, Larry, I just did a little research on Dr. Pall and found an article at ImmuneSupport.com. I found something interesting:
>
> "Possibly the most intriguing such mechanism relates to the widespread use of vitamin B12 injections in treatment of CFS (3). Two forms of vitamin B12 are being used here, hydroxocobalamin, which is a nitric oxide scavenger and cyanocobalamin, which is converted to hydroxocobalamin by Pall human cells (3). These observations suggest that the nitric oxide/peroxynitrite proposed mechanism for CFS makes useful predictions for effective treatment."
>
> and
>
> "Cobalamin used in chronic fatigue syndrome therapy is a nitric oxide scavenger."
>
> Here's the address:
>
> http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm?ID=2976
>
>
> There it is again. B3 involved again (along with mitochondria) for CFS this time. I have been taking 1 gm methylcobalamin some mornings sublingually but it definitely looks like I should increase that if it is related to CFS, adrenal fatigue, allergy/histamine response and it's involved with restting your clock. A common thread in so many of my maladies. Coincidence? I think not (but what the hell do I know?)
>
> KaraJust a quickie response. Dr. Pall is a Dr. of biochemistry. He developed a testable model of fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome which involves severe oxidative stress, mediated by peroxynitrite. His faculty link is up now. http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/Faculty/pall.html
There are a couple of links to articles he wrote, on that page. If you scoot around within his links, I think you can find other links to more articles, too. Or, if you google Pall peroxynitrite, you'll get a good number of hits.
I corresponded with Dr. Pall a couple of years back, but the stuff is on that other hard drive. :-/ I posted some of it on Usenet. Maybe you can find the nutritional recommendations he gave me, or I'll look for them another time.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 3:45:56
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on July 28, 2004, at 13:23:40
> Hey Kara. I'm kind of distracted right now. I'm not ignoring you. I want to make sure I give you my full attention when I do. That mercury/amalgam thing was hanging over my brain for a while, and I got it outta the way. I'm still sore from the MRI last night (I'm a big lad, skeletally, and my shoulders just didn't squarsh down into that little tube thingie very comfortably at all). 45 minutes, don't move. No problemo. I couldn't have moved if I wanted to. I'm getting ready to go on vacation, too (a romantic situation, sorry ladies), and when I get back I have a bone marrow biopsy. I'm going to be doing some self-care stuff, but I'll see what I can turn my brain towards.
>
> Later,
> Lar
That's ok. In my most recent posts I was just going on and on about all of my porposed adrenal support supplements anyway. I hope your MRI showed what the problem is with your elbow (and that it's easily fixed). I'm also hoping the biopsy just rules things out. You certainly have had your share of things to worry about lately. Please keep us posted.Enjoy your romantic vacation and try not to think about any of us back here in Psycho-Babble land.
Kara
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 2, 2004, at 10:39:26
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry, posted by KaraS on August 1, 2004, at 3:45:56
> Enjoy your romantic vacation and try not to think about any of us back here in Psycho-Babble land.
>
> KaraThanks. That's my plan. ;-)
Lar
Posted by KaraS on August 2, 2004, at 17:53:09
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 2, 2004, at 10:39:26
You forgot to tell us where you're going to be so we can all (hundreds of us) drop in and say hello!!! (LOL)
Posted by simus on August 2, 2004, at 18:44:02
In reply to Re: Hey Lar, you forgot to tell us ..., posted by KaraS on August 2, 2004, at 17:53:09
> You forgot to tell us where you're going to be so we can all (hundreds of us) drop in and say hello!!! (LOL)
And since at that point the all the romance would be out the window, could we bring some health questions for you to answer in person? (Chatting on the Internet can be so impersonal.)
Posted by KaraS on August 2, 2004, at 19:01:21
In reply to Re: Hey Lar, you forgot to tell us ... » KaraS, posted by simus on August 2, 2004, at 18:44:02
> > You forgot to tell us where you're going to be so we can all (hundreds of us) drop in and say hello!!! (LOL)
>
> And since at that point the all the romance would be out the window, could we bring some health questions for you to answer in person? (Chatting on the Internet can be so impersonal.)
>
>Simus,
I KNEW you were going to answer that post!!!
But you have a great idea there. I'm making a list of questions for Lar as we speak. His girlfriend sounds like such a nice person - I'm certain she won't mind.
Kara
Posted by simus on August 2, 2004, at 20:51:05
In reply to Re: Hey Lar, you forgot to tell us ..., posted by KaraS on August 2, 2004, at 19:01:21
> I KNEW you were going to answer that post!!!
LOL It's one of the few that I actually understood (no big words). =)
Posted by KaraS on August 2, 2004, at 21:47:58
In reply to Re: Hey Lar, you forgot to tell us ..., posted by simus on August 2, 2004, at 20:51:05
> > I KNEW you were going to answer that post!!!
>
>
> LOL It's one of the few that I actually understood (no big words). =)
You're too funny! (I hear you about the big words.) I hope Dr. Bob will keep these last few posts on the board until Larry gets back. I'm sure he'd get a chuckle out of them.I'm going to order the book you recommended tonight. I looked it over on Amazon.com and it's exactly what I'm looking for. (I can't remember if I told you that already. The mind is a terrible thing to fry.)
BTW, my sister and the bright hotel lights set me straight on the thinking that I look younger than I am. (The people at that clinic were either trying to flatter me or they were idiots.) I preferred being kept in the dark on this one though. But I still think I can fool people into thinking I'm healthy and happy. (Perhaps we all need our delusions.)
Kara
Posted by simus on August 3, 2004, at 0:40:44
In reply to Re: Hey Lar, you forgot to tell us ... » simus, posted by KaraS on August 2, 2004, at 21:47:58
> I still think I can fool people into thinking I'm healthy and happy.
Mental illness is tough. I don't really want most people to know I have it due to the stigma attached. But then with the battles with memory and concentration, not to mention lack of motivation and antisocial behavior (the list goes on), I seem to want to at least let people know that this isn't the real me. Oh, what to do...
Since you have so much in common with me (and before the good Dr. Bob boots us over to PB Social), would you be willing to tell me what you are taking both in meds and in vitamins/minerals/herbs/etc, and how well they have worked for you?
Thanks,
Simus
P.S. I don't think Larry's female companion would mind in the least if his adoring "fan club" showed up on their special weekend.
Posted by KaraS on August 3, 2004, at 2:56:27
In reply to Re: Hey Lar, you forgot to tell us ... » KaraS, posted by simus on August 3, 2004, at 0:40:44
> > I still think I can fool people into thinking I'm healthy and happy.
>
> Mental illness is tough. I don't really want most people to know I have it due to the stigma attached. But then with the battles with memory and concentration, not to mention lack of motivation and antisocial behavior (the list goes on), I seem to want to at least let people know that this isn't the real me. Oh, what to do...
>
> Since you have so much in common with me (and before the good Dr. Bob boots us over to PB Social), would you be willing to tell me what you are taking both in meds and in vitamins/minerals/herbs/etc, and how well they have worked for you?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Simus
>
> P.S. I don't think Larry's female companion would mind in the least if his adoring "fan club" showed up on their special weekend.
Simus,I don't mind at all telling you or a few hundred of our close friends on-line (LOL) what I'm taking or what I have tried in the past. First, though, let me clarify something I mentioned earlier.
I should have said that I still think I can fool people into thinking that I'm happy and healthy IN THE SHORT-RUN. It's too hard to keep up the facade long-term. I recently went on vacation with my sister and her family. I was quite worried before I left about not having the energy to make conversation the whole time and I was afraid that I'd be a total drag and ruin everyone's time. Fortunately that didn't happen - I think because I'm anergic but not totally anhedonic. I was able to enjoy some things and to laugh quite a bit. Your sense of humor is wonderful so I'm thinking you might be the same way.
Still, it was hard for me to be with my family in the sense that they don't fully get it. Their attitude is "just do it and don't think about it so much." Arrrggg!! You just want to scream. I try to tell them that what they're saying to me is like trying to tell a blind person to see or telling someone with broken legs to walk. The lack of motivation is the nature of the beast! All to no avail of course. But I digress...
Back to what I'm taking. Right now I'm taking about 18 mg. of Effexor as I slowly decrease it in hopes of going off of it entirely. It helped me a little bit but not a lot. I have tried several other meds (doxepin, Prozac, nortriptyline, desipramine, Zoloft and Paxil). Only the Prozac was I able to tolerate and get a successful antidepressant response from but it only lasted a short while. The doxepin totally got rid of the anxiety and panic attacks however. I have tried l-tyrosine and DLPA. The tyrosine did nothing at all and I increased up to 3,200 mg. per day. DLPA made me a little jittery but I didn't notice anything else. I'm still going to try taking that at a higher dosage and possibly combining it with selegiline.
One thing that sounds different for the two of us is that your situation sounds fairly recent. I have been battling depression my entire adult life. Stress may have thrown your system out of kilter but I know that I have a strong genetic component to my depression. I have also had different kinds of depression over the years. Most of the time it has been anxious depression but now it is lethargic in nature or atypical so what might have worked for me a few years ago might not work for me at all now. The different manifestation of the depression might have something to do with adrenal fatigue however.
I hope I haven't scared you by telling you that I've been battling this demon for such a long time. For one thing they haven't had much of a selection of medications until fairly recently. For another thing, I've been exceptionally cautious in trying things. (The reason for that is another story for another day about my first couple of experiences with inept doctors.) I am pretty hopeful right now that I will find things that work for me because I know so much more about my condition at this point and about what's out there to help (that's in large part because of this site). I'm also determined to force myself to try more things.
In terms of vitamins and supplements, I'm taking a good multi, B-complex, Ester C, E, small amount of fish oil, Evening Primrose Oil, MSN, Calcium/Magnesium and sometimes extra folic acid and B12. Nothing too exciting there but I find that when I take them religiously I get sick less often and I'm less likely to get a CFS attack. I've tried a few things for immune support: Echinnacea, Beta-Glucan, Olive Leaf, reishi mushrooms. I don't know if they help or not but I take them when I feel sick anyway.
I've tried taking alpha lipoic acid (maybe not enough of it though), DMAE, acetyl-l-carnitine, NAC and phosphatydlserine (maybe not enough of that either but who can afford it). They probably worked as antioxidants and such but these aren't the kinds of things that have a huge immediate impact on your state of mind.
I have a long list of meds and supplements that I am going to try. These are much more interesting and promising than most of what I've mentioned so far. I've started with Rhodiola Rosea. The first brand was a bit of a disappointment. I will probably try two other brands before giving up on it. Then I'm going to try Perika - the one St. John's Wort formulation that is quite activating/stimulating. I have high hopes for that one.
Are you still awake? I'll save all the rest of the meds and herbs I plan to take for another post. I'll just put them into a list. I don't want to bore you to death by listing all of them now.
You mentioned in an earlier post what you are taking now at least in terms of the adrenal fatigue. I don't remember if you listed any meds. What have you taken in the past? What are you planning to add or change from what you're taking now?
KaraP.S. I agree about Larry's girlfriend. Surely she's as interested in meeting us as we are in meeting her (and as they say, there's no time like the present)!!
P.P.S. We could go on and on with this silliness, couldn't we?
Posted by Simus on August 3, 2004, at 10:14:59
In reply to Re: what I'm taking » simus, posted by KaraS on August 3, 2004, at 2:56:27
> I recently went on vacation with my sister and her family. I was quite worried before I left about not having the energy to make conversation the whole time and I was afraid that I'd be a total drag and ruin everyone's time. Fortunately that didn't happen - I think because I'm anergic but not totally anhedonic. I was able to enjoy some things and to laugh quite a bit. Your sense of humor is wonderful so I'm thinking you might be the same way.
Exactly the same.
> Still, it was hard for me to be with my family in the sense that they don't fully get it. Their attitude is "just do it and don't think about it so much." Arrrggg!! You just want to scream. I try to tell them that what they're saying to me is like trying to tell a blind person to see or telling someone with broken legs to walk. The lack of motivation is the nature of the beast! All to no avail of course. But I digress...As if anyone would intentionally live like this...
> Back to what I'm taking. Right now I'm taking about 18 mg. of Effexor as I slowly decrease it in hopes of going off of it entirely. It helped me a little bit but not a lot. I have tried several other meds (doxepin, Prozac, nortriptyline, desipramine, Zoloft and Paxil). Only the Prozac was I able to tolerate and get a successful antidepressant response from but it only lasted a short while. The doxepin totally got rid of the anxiety and panic attacks however.I am currently on Wellbutrin and Xanax. The Wellbutrin has helped the depression and I feel (relatively) quite well with the exception of insomnia, but I am wondering if the Wellbutrin has contributed to the overtaxing of my adrenal system. Not sure... But if it works for the depression/anxiety, I don't dare touch it! I have been on Effexor too, and have done fairly well on it. Just recently I was on Lexapro and that didn't go well at all. I have also taken Paxil, Zoloft, Buspar, Seroquel, and a few others that escape my memory. I have been on meds for over 9 years now.
> One thing that sounds different for the two of us is that your situation sounds fairly recent. I have been battling depression my entire adult life. Stress may have thrown your system out of kilter but I know that I have a strong genetic component to my depression. I have also had different kinds of depression over the years. Most of the time it has been anxious depression but now it is lethargic in nature or atypical so what might have worked for me a few years ago might not work for me at all now. The different manifestation of the depression might have something to do with adrenal fatigue however.
Well, actually there again we are quite similar. I have had depression since childhood. My earliest memory of depressive behavior was at around 8 years old when my father died. And it basically followed me to some degree my whole life (I am now 43). I remember anxiety even earlier than that. I didn't start having panic attacks though until after my first daughter was born when I was 28. There is a strong genetic tendency on my mother's side for alcohol/drug abuse (ALL of her brother and sisters), although I don't really remember any of them being treated for depressed or anxiety per se.
> In terms of vitamins and supplements, I'm taking a good multi, B-complex, Ester C, E, small amount of fish oil, Evening Primrose Oil, MSN, Calcium/Magnesium and sometimes extra folic acid and B12. Nothing too exciting there but I find that when I take them religiously I get sick less often and I'm less likely to get a CFS attack. I've tried a few things for immune support: Echinnacea, Beta-Glucan, Olive Leaf, reishi mushrooms. I don't know if they help or not but I take them when I feel sick anyway.
I take very similar supplements, except that extra vitamin C and B5 are suggested for adrenal fatigue (among other things). I also try to do the ginseng/ginger/green tea daily. I need to get into the digestive enzymes more faithfully, along with some of the amino acids and herbals.
Right now I am struggling with what to do about the weight I have gained on the meds, especially in light of the fact that I need to not over-stress my body until my adrenals have recovered. Any ideas???(Thanks for taking the time to respond.)
Simus
P.S. Or you could save the response for when we are chatting with Larry and his better half in the hot-tub. LOL
Posted by KaraS on August 3, 2004, at 14:09:55
In reply to Re: what I'm taking » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 3, 2004, at 10:14:59
> > I recently went on vacation with my sister and her family. I was quite worried before I left about not having the energy to make conversation the whole time and I was afraid that I'd be a total drag and ruin everyone's time. Fortunately that didn't happen - I think because I'm anergic but not totally anhedonic. I was able to enjoy some things and to laugh quite a bit. Your sense of humor is wonderful so I'm thinking you might be the same way.
>
> Exactly the same.
>
> > Still, it was hard for me to be with my family in the sense that they don't fully get it. Their attitude is "just do it and don't think about it so much." Arrrggg!! You just want to scream. I try to tell them that what they're saying to me is like trying to tell a blind person to see or telling someone with broken legs to walk. The lack of motivation is the nature of the beast! All to no avail of course. But I digress...
>
> As if anyone would intentionally live like this...YES! THANK YOU!
>
> > Back to what I'm taking. Right now I'm taking about 18 mg. of Effexor as I slowly decrease it in hopes of going off of it entirely. It helped me a little bit but not a lot. I have tried several other meds (doxepin, Prozac, nortriptyline, desipramine, Zoloft and Paxil). Only the Prozac was I able to tolerate and get a successful antidepressant response from but it only lasted a short while. The doxepin totally got rid of the anxiety and panic attacks however.
>
> I am currently on Wellbutrin and Xanax. The Wellbutrin has helped the depression and I feel (relatively) quite well with the exception of insomnia, but I am wondering if the Wellbutrin has contributed to the overtaxing of my adrenal system. Not sure... But if it works for the depression/anxiety, I don't dare touch it! I have been on Effexor too, and have done fairly well on it. Just recently I was on Lexapro and that didn't go well at all. I have also taken Paxil, Zoloft, Buspar, Seroquel, and a few others that escape my memory. I have been on meds for over 9 years now.
>
> > One thing that sounds different for the two of us is that your situation sounds fairly recent. I have been battling depression my entire adult life. Stress may have thrown your system out of kilter but I know that I have a strong genetic component to my depression. I have also had different kinds of depression over the years. Most of the time it has been anxious depression but now it is lethargic in nature or atypical so what might have worked for me a few years ago might not work for me at all now. The different manifestation of the depression might have something to do with adrenal fatigue however.
>
> Well, actually there again we are quite similar. I have had depression since childhood. My earliest memory of depressive behavior was at around 8 years old when my father died. And it basically followed me to some degree my whole life (I am now 43). I remember anxiety even earlier than that. I didn't start having panic attacks though until after my first daughter was born when I was 28. There is a strong genetic tendency on my mother's side for alcohol/drug abuse (ALL of her brother and sisters), although I don't really remember any of them being treated for depressed or anxiety per se.
>WOW, Simus, you're not going to believe this but my father also died when I was 8 years old. I never married or had children so in that we definitely differ. I don't have the support network you have but neither do I have the constant pressure of having to interact with my family's friends or co-workers. I have less to worry about in terms of living up to their expectations as well. My mother is a very anxious/neurotic person with a slight tendency towards depression (but not to the degree that I am). I mean she's much more neurotic but not as depressive. My panic attacks started when I was 24 and I'm 49 now so we are similar there too. (I haven't had a panic attack in eons - thank G-d for small favors.)
> > In terms of vitamins and supplements, I'm taking a good multi, B-complex, Ester C, E, small amount of fish oil, Evening Primrose Oil, MSN, Calcium/Magnesium and sometimes extra folic acid and B12. Nothing too exciting there but I find that when I take them religiously I get sick less often and I'm less likely to get a CFS attack. I've tried a few things for immune support: Echinnacea, Beta-Glucan, Olive Leaf, reishi mushrooms. I don't know if they help or not but I take them when I feel sick anyway.
>
> I take very similar supplements, except that extra vitamin C and B5 are suggested for adrenal fatigue (among other things). I also try to do the ginseng/ginger/green tea daily. I need to get into the digestive enzymes more faithfully, along with some of the amino acids and herbals.
>You definitely sound better and on the road to recovery. Have you ever considered taking probiotics or triphala?
> Right now I am struggling with what to do about the weight I have gained on the meds, especially in light of the fact that I need to not over-stress my body until my adrenals have recovered. Any ideas???
>
Do you take anything to help with sleep? Tryptophan is supposed to help with that and it is also supposed to dampen the appetite. That wouldn't tax your adrenals either.
I'll send you another message later with all of the things I want to try in the future.
Also, would you mind telling me what part of the country you live in? I live in L.A - at least for now.
> (Thanks for taking the time to respond.)
>
> Simus
>
> P.S. Or you could save the response for when we are chatting with Larry and his better half in the hot-tub. LOL
Kara
P.S. We should call over and make sure Larry and his girlfriend save us some space. If not, we could always ask them later at night when we're camped out with our sleeping bags in their hotel room!
Posted by Simus on August 3, 2004, at 21:36:25
In reply to Re: what I'm taking » Simus, posted by KaraS on August 3, 2004, at 14:09:55
> WOW, Simus, you're not going to believe this but my father also died when I was 8 years old. I never married or had children so in that we definitely differ. I don't have the support network you have but neither do I have the constant pressure of having to interact with my family's friends or co-workers. I have less to worry about in terms of living up to their expectations as well.
I don't know how/if I would have made it through if it hadn't been for my kids. The thought of the tears on their sweet faces has made me pull out of many episodes of just wanting to "permanently quit" this battle.
>My mother is a very anxious/neurotic person with a slight tendency towards depression (but not to the degree that I am). I mean she's much more neurotic but not as depressive.
Exactly like mine. My mother was the only one in her family that didn't fight substance abuse, but she always had "bad nerves".
> You definitely sound better and on the road to recovery. Have you ever considered taking probiotics or triphala?
I know little about probiotics and absolutely nothing about triphala. What do you know about them? Have you tried them?
> Do you take anything to help with sleep? Tryptophan is supposed to help with that and it is also supposed to dampen the appetite. That wouldn't tax your adrenals either.I need serious help with sleep! Isn't tryptophan the amino acid that was banned in this country? I have read a lot about 5HTP (I think that is right), but I was a little concerned about serotonin syndrome when I was on Lexapro so I didn't try it. But that probably wouldn't be a problem now that I am on Wellbutrin. I will have to look into it again.
> Also, would you mind telling me what part of the country you live in? I live in L.A - at least for now.Central Michigan.
By the way, I sure hope Larry has a sense of humor! LOL
Simus
Posted by KaraS on August 4, 2004, at 1:17:30
In reply to Re: what I'm taking » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 3, 2004, at 21:36:25
> > WOW, Simus, you're not going to believe this but my father also died when I was 8 years old. I never married or had children so in that we definitely differ. I don't have the support network you have but neither do I have the constant pressure of having to interact with my family's friends or co-workers. I have less to worry about in terms of living up to their expectations as well.
>
> I don't know how/if I would have made it through if it hadn't been for my kids. The thought of the tears on their sweet faces has made me pull out of many episodes of just wanting to "permanently quit" this battle.
>I'm glad that you have your children in your life. I'm on better terms now with my mother and sister but there was a time when I didn't hear much from either of them. My sister was too busy in her life and my mother was disgusted with me because she doesn't understand that I'm ill. I don't know how I kept going some of that time.
> >My mother is a very anxious/neurotic person with a slight tendency towards depression (but not to the degree that I am). I mean she's much more neurotic but not as depressive.
>
> Exactly like mine. My mother was the only one in her family that didn't fight substance abuse, but she always had "bad nerves".> > You definitely sound better and on the road to recovery. Have you ever considered taking probiotics or triphala?
>
> I know little about probiotics and absolutely nothing about triphala. What do you know about them? Have you tried them?Probiotics basically means acidophilus and the like. It's good for your system and digestion to keep the balance of good bacteria. Triphala is something I only recently learned about. It's Ayurvedic and it's supposed to be a great "tonic" for the body. My friend is taking it now. Do a search or look at the info on it at iHerb.com. It seems exactly like the kind of thing that would help a lot with adrenal fatigue. I think I'm going to order it.
>
> > Do you take anything to help with sleep? Tryptophan is supposed to help with that and it is also supposed to dampen the appetite. That wouldn't tax your adrenals either.> I need serious help with sleep! Isn't tryptophan the amino acid that was banned in this country? I have read a lot about 5HTP (I think that is right), but I was a little concerned about serotonin syndrome when I was on Lexapro so I didn't try it. But that probably wouldn't be a problem now that I am on Wellbutrin. I will have to look into it again.
>Yes, tryptophan was banned here because there was some out of Japan that wasn't pure - had some other stuff in it that made people quite ill. But it wasn't the tryptophan itself. It's still sold here in certain holistic doctor's offices or you can order it on-line from abroad. Larry gave us a site on-line that he gets it from which is a site for veterinary supplies. As he put it "no one feeds crap to very expensive horses." If you're not comfortable with that, I understand. I'm a little uncomfortable with it myself and if it didn't come from Larry, I wouldn't consider it at all. The 5-htp, that's also somewhat controversial. Some people think that it becomes serotonin outside of the brain which could lead to problems. Larry thinks that it is harmless but that it's not terribly efficient. You can search for his answers on both of these things.
Did you say that you take ginseng? If so, which kind and how much? I guess it's not supposed to be a good thing to take if you're hypoglycemic so I'm trying to find another adaptogen to take. I was on Maca for hotflashes which worked so well and then pooped out. Maybe I just need to take much more of it. I'm not having much luck with rhodiola either yet. I guess I'll try Ashwagandha next. I'm running out of choices for adaptogens which seems to be a really important part of the healing for adrenal fatigue.
> > Also, would you mind telling me what part of the country you live in? I live in L.A - at least for now.
>
> Central Michigan.
>It's erie how many similarities there are in our lives. I went to the University of Michigan and lived in Ann Arbor for about 9 years.
> By the way, I sure hope Larry has a sense of humor! LOL
>> Simus
I'm sure Larry would laugh at all of our wise-cracks. (His girlfriend might not find it as funny.)
Posted by KaraS on August 4, 2004, at 23:08:43
In reply to Re: what I'm taking, posted by KaraS on August 4, 2004, at 1:17:30
In terms of things I'm trying or planning on trying here's most of them. I'll try the majority of them separately of course.
FOR DEPRESSION:
Rhodiola Rosea (also for adaptogen purposes)
St. John's Wort (Perika)
Inositol
TMG
L-tyrosine
DLPA (in larger dose than tried before)
L-glutamineCymbalta
Selegiline Patch (EnSam when it's approved)
Wellbutrin? (may try it again)
Nortriptyline? (may try this again too)
Selegiline with DLPA
Parnate
Marplan
Myrapex?
Amisulpride?
FOR FOCUS/CONCENTRATION:
Concerta?Adderall (I'd take this with NAC (N-Acetyl-Cysteine) and something to prevent tolerance if necessary.)
Strattera
Gingko (also for health benefits and AD)
Picamilon
Piracetam and/or Aniracetam
Hydergine(These last 4 are "smart drugs" or nootropics for increased focus and concentration.)
FOR HEALTH AND ADRENAL FUNCTION:probiotics (probably not everyday)
Ashwagandha
Maca
(the last 2 are adaptogens since I can't take
gingseng and may not be able to take Rhodiola)
Jarrow green drink (with lots of antioxidants including ginger and green tea and a small amount of the adaptogen licorice.)
NOW Brand Candida CleanseChromium (just started that for stabilizing blood sugar and possible AD effect)
Wolfberry
MSM with Glucosamine and Chondroitin
Coenzyme Q10
Idebenone
Phosphatydlserine?
NAC
Alpha Lipoic Acid
FOR SLEEP IF NEEDED:valerian (makes 10% of people hyper though - my luck I'll be one of them)
tryptophan/5-htp
GABA
taurine
Ambien and Sonata
Benzos (only if absolutely necessary)
I just reread the description of triphala and I don't think I'm going to go with that right now. It's for colon cleansing and more in line with candidiasis treatment.By now you're probably very sorry you asked!
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2004, at 0:33:18
In reply to Re: Hey Lar, you forgot to tell us ... » KaraS, posted by simus on August 2, 2004, at 18:44:02
> > You forgot to tell us where you're going to be so we can all (hundreds of us) drop in and say hello!!! (LOL)
>
> And since at that point the all the romance would be out the window, could we bring some health questions for you to answer in person? (Chatting on the Internet can be so impersonal.)I'll have you know I didn't get a wink of sleep that first night, worrying as I was about my privacy. ;-)
Later,
LarP.S. I should be home Friday the 13th, the most auspicious day to travel.
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