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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 41 to 65 of 77. Go back in thread:
Posted by doxogenic boy on March 4, 2014, at 10:50:10
In reply to Re: Trolls and Freedom of Speech » doxogenic boy, posted by SLS on March 4, 2014, at 7:11:19
> I am in agreement with 10derheart regarding your initial post along this thread. I neglected to tell you that I appreciated your post and the time it took you to compose it.
Thank you very much. :)
I appreciate your arguments, it helps me to think further whether a no-troll-policy is good or not.- doxogenic
Posted by SLS on March 4, 2014, at 11:24:25
In reply to Zero-tolerance Policies, posted by Ronnjee on March 4, 2014, at 10:39:08
> That's my understanding of what the thread-starter (and others) was advocating. Problem is, such policies lead to some really effed-up results, like the following:
>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/04/student-points-finger-like-gun_n_4895507.htmlThe rule instituted by the school was certainly draconian and ought to be repealed. I'm not inclined to blame "zero tolerance" as the factor that makes this situation untenable. The rule is untenable. If there were a rule to prohibit students from urinating on the lunch counter, would a zero tolerance policy be desirable? Can you envisage a posting behavior on Psycho-Babble that should be treated with equal urgency? Interestingly, Dr. Bob always gives a warning rather than a posting block for the first offense. This is not zero tolerance.
- Scott
Posted by Ronnjee on March 4, 2014, at 11:37:41
In reply to Re: Zero-tolerance Policies » Ronnjee, posted by SLS on March 4, 2014, at 11:24:25
All very good points, Scott! I'm just saying, proceed with caution.
Posted by SLS on March 4, 2014, at 11:53:58
In reply to Re: Zero-tolerance Policies » SLS, posted by Ronnjee on March 4, 2014, at 11:37:41
> All very good points, Scott! I'm just saying, proceed with caution.
You are right.
I think Dr. Bob is currently trying to move away from the (near) zero tolerance policy that upset so many people several years ago. I was very unhappy with the situation back then. I don't think I offered any alternatives, though. In my mind, it was an all-or-nothing of thing. I wasn't very helpful.
- Scott
Posted by Ronnjee on March 4, 2014, at 12:19:07
In reply to Re: Zero-tolerance Policies » Ronnjee, posted by SLS on March 4, 2014, at 11:53:58
All-or-nothing is not the way to go, for sure. I think the desire for a perfect set of rules is an unreasonable one, but from what I see, all to common. This is vividly shown in the news, where seemingly everybody is sure their way is the right way.
"Nobody's right if everybody's wrong". ~ Stephen Stills
I think Bob has become aware of all this, and is simply trying to moderate on a case-by-case basis, and as little as possible. He seems to know now that there isn't a panacea. Like Dirty Harry said, "A man's gotta know his limitations".
Posted by SLS on March 4, 2014, at 16:05:05
In reply to Re: Zero-tolerance Policies, posted by Ronnjee on March 4, 2014, at 12:19:07
> "Nobody's right if everybody's wrong". ~ Stephen Stills
One of my absolute favorites!
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2014, at 1:19:18
In reply to Re: Trolls and Vulnerable People » Ronnjee, posted by doxogenic boy on March 3, 2014, at 17:18:17
Hi, everyone,
I do like the idea of having a safe place to go. Maybe it would help after all to have a Refuge board with more moderation. Some posters might appreciate a third-party solution while they work on a first-party solution. Maybe it would be easier for them to learn to fish if they weren't hungry. Also, as I mentioned before:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20140214/msgs/1061603.html
I'm thinking about "blinders", a feature that would keep posters from even seeing the posts of other posters, also to help them feel safe.
I don't want others to see me as unable to change, so I try to see others that way. Plus, the rule is just to be civil, not to be empathic.
My view is that it's OK to educate people about trolls in general, but uncivil to accuse particular posters of being trolls.
On the one hand, the idea that posters who react to trolls shouldn't be treated like trolls is incorporated into the block length formula, since I take into account whether someone seems to be provoked. OTOH, what if a "troll" were reacting to someone we're not aware of?
The idea of not feeding trolls is not to respond the way they want, which would reinforce their behavior. One alternative way to respond is to ignore them. What about supporting them? I realize that isn't the routine recommendation. This isn't a routine site.
Bob
--
> I think censored support groups/discussion boards can give more freedom of speech, because then will people who are afraid of aggressive posters, dare to use the forum.
>
> He or she may even commit suicide, and no one knows that it was the troll who caused it.
>
> There is no reason for giving the troll a second, third, fourth, fifth ... chance, because they are often cyber psychopaths, who hurt other people for fun. And psychopaths never learn
>
> So, therefore it should be allowed to say in a support group that a troll is a troll, a cyber psychopath is a cyber psychopath and a cyber stalker is a cyber stalker, to warn other users on the support group, and to stop the troll from posting.> If moderation is done often or fast enough, this will keep trolls away.
> I think posters who react to trolls shouldn't be treated like trolls.
>
> - doxogenic> Maybe a troll can learn not to be a troll?
>
> Having said all of that, it is still my intention to offer resistance to what I feel is undesirable behavior by posting my usual confrontational silliness.
>
> - Scott> it appears that the most defensive are the ones who want a third-party solution the most. ... Why do they feel the need to defend? Why are they so sure that someone or the website need defending? ... Is it about virtue and nobility, ala Don Quixote?
> I'm thinking about a psyche version of "give a man a fish.......", where learning to deal with the "slings and arrows" may be better than expecting to control the slingers. I think of road rage, and learning how to avoid it, starting with the acceptance that other drivers will always, at one time or another, do stupid or careless things on the road (as will we sometimes). We can't control that but we can learn to not be so surprised by it and not freak out about it.
>
> Ronnjee> The reason why I think it can be of importance to know if a poster is a troll is that he can be dangerous for other posters' mental health because of his sadistic and psychopathic personality.
>
> A person with psychopathic personality traits is biologically unable to learn empathy.> > novice Internet users are routinely admonished, 'Do not feed the trolls!'
> I think vulnerable people should have at least one safe place to go.
>
> - doxogenic
Posted by SLS on March 5, 2014, at 7:07:28
In reply to Re: Vulnerable People, posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2014, at 1:19:18
> Hi, everyone,
>
> I do like the idea of having a safe place to go. Maybe it would help after all to have a Refuge board with more moderation. Some posters might appreciate a third-party solution while they work on a first-party solution. Maybe it would be easier for them to learn to fish if they weren't hungry. Also, as I mentioned before:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20140214/msgs/1061603.html
>
> I'm thinking about "blinders", a feature that would keep posters from even seeing the posts of other posters, also to help them feel safe.
>
> I don't want others to see me as unable to change, so I try to see others that way. Plus, the rule is just to be civil, not to be empathic.
>
> My view is that it's OK to educate people about trolls in general, but uncivil to accuse particular posters of being trolls.
>
> On the one hand, the idea that posters who react to trolls shouldn't be treated like trolls is incorporated into the block length formula, since I take into account whether someone seems to be provoked. OTOH, what if a "troll" were reacting to someone we're not aware of?
>
> The idea of not feeding trolls is not to respond the way they want, which would reinforce their behavior. One alternative way to respond is to ignore them. What about supporting them? I realize that isn't the routine recommendation. This isn't a routine site.
>
> BobThis sounds good.
Will there be a special sign-up procedure for entrance into a refuge forum?
- Scott
Posted by Ronnjee on March 5, 2014, at 7:26:14
In reply to Re: Vulnerable People, posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2014, at 1:19:18
I can see how such a "safe" place might be quite agreeable to some members. I personally have no interest in it, but I'll be interested in seeing how the civility rules, blocks, etc. might be different there, and how the existence of such a place will, in turn, affect the civility situation on the "regular" boards. Cross-talk might be a potential problem, as I see it.
Posted by Twinleaf on March 5, 2014, at 8:21:41
In reply to Re: Vulnerable People, posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2014, at 1:19:18
Support is great -at least, almost always. But if posters are acting out hostilities or emotional/cognitive distortions, focussing on them excessively could be having the effect of rewarding and reinforcing unhealthy behaviors. I believe this is, unfortunately, happening with Lou presently. If "trolls" are supported as they act out destructive behaviors, that would be equally unfortunate and equally unlikely to promote healthier, more constructive interactions.
I would like to see destructive comments either ignored or mildly sanctioned, with support reserved for constructive, or at least neutral, interactions. But the board seems to be going in a direction which is increasingly irrelevant for minorities like me!
Posted by SLS on March 5, 2014, at 8:32:39
In reply to Re: Vulnerable People, posted by Twinleaf on March 5, 2014, at 8:21:41
> Support is great -at least, almost always. But if posters are acting out hostilities or emotional/cognitive distortions, focussing on them excessively could be having the effect of rewarding and reinforcing unhealthy behaviors. I believe this is, unfortunately, happening with Lou presently. If "trolls" are supported as they act out destructive behaviors, that would be equally unfortunate and equally unlikely to promote healthier, more constructive interactions.
This makes sense.
> I would like to see destructive comments either ignored or mildly sanctioned, with support reserved for constructive, or at least neutral, interactions.
> But the board seems to be going in a direction which is increasingly irrelevant for minorities like me!
I'm not sure that you are a minority, but you are perfect.
- Scott
Posted by doxogenic boy on March 5, 2014, at 8:49:04
In reply to Re: Vulnerable People, posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2014, at 1:19:18
> Hi, everyone,
> I do like the idea of having a safe place to go.Thank you very much for your reply. I hope it is possible to find a solution that most users on Babble are satisfied with. It seems like the majority would like a stricter enforcement of the civility rules, and I think that would make Babble safer for vulnerable people.
> Maybe it would help after all to have a Refuge board with more moderation.
I think it is worth a try. If it works, what about making all Babble forums to Refuge boards?
> Some posters might appreciate a third-party solution while they work on a first-party solution. Maybe it would be easier for them to learn to fish if they weren't hungry.
Can you elaborate this? I haven't read all the threads here on Admin, so I may have missed a point.
> Also, as I mentioned before:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20140214/msgs/1061603.html
> I'm thinking about "blinders", a feature that would keep posters from even seeing the posts of other posters, also to help them feel safe.
I support this idea. But one can see what the unwanted poster says, if other users quote him/her, unless it also is possible to blind replies to the unwanted poster. Maybe it can be a choice whether to blind just the unwanted poster or to blind replies to the poster too?
> I don't want others to see me as unable to change, so I try to see others that way.
Thanks.
>Plus, the rule is just to be civil, not to be empathic.
Yes, but if a poster shows lack of empathy, it could me uncivil?
> My view is that it's OK to educate people about trolls in general, but uncivil to accuse particular posters of being trolls.
Thank you for this clarification. But can you see the arguments for warning other posters againts malicious trolls, to protect their mental health and that those who warn about this can have good intentions?
> On the one hand, the idea that posters who react to trolls shouldn't be treated like trolls is incorporated into the block length formula, since I take into account whether someone seems to be provoked.
That is great. I didn't know about this.
> OTOH, what if a "troll" were reacting to someone we're not aware of?
Even if we try to be fair, we can fail sometimes, but I don't think this will happen very often.
> The idea of not feeding trolls is not to respond the way they want, which would reinforce their behavior. One alternative way to respond is to ignore them. What about supporting them? I realize that isn't the routine recommendation. This isn't a routine site.
If trolls are sadists, such as Canadian researchers say in the sciencific journal "Personality and Individual Differences" in the study "Trolls just want to have fun" (I have now found the fulltext article on the Internet, and it shows on the link below), then it is very difficult to support trolls without being exploited. If one realize after a long time that one has been exploited in a long-term troll strategy, it can be very hurtful and make it more difficult to trust other people. And the mentally ill often have problems with trusting other people. Supporting trolls may worsen their problems.
http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/trolls-just-want-to-have-fun.pdf
Two quotes from the link above:
"Online trolling is the practice of behaving in a deceptive, destructive, or disruptive manner in a social setting on the Internet with no apparent instrumental purpose."
[...]
"Also as expected, sadism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism scores were positively correlated with self-reported enjoyment of trolling, all rs >.37 (see Table 1), even when controlling for overall Internet use, all rs >.39"
End quote.What do you think about the above-mentioned study, as a mental health professional?
- doxogenic
Posted by Ronnjee on March 5, 2014, at 12:35:37
In reply to Re: Vulnerable People » Dr. Bob, posted by doxogenic boy on March 5, 2014, at 8:49:04
People spewing vitriol in some sort of media is far from a new thing, and it's not limited to online activity. In recent years, 24-hour TV and radio news media (like Fox News) and the interweb have provided endless outlets for outrage, and it's become an unfortunately common part of people's mode of expression, and it's not just coming from the rabble. We often see it from our elected officials, religious leaders, etc.. What happens here is merely a reflection of a broader phenomenon, and I don't find it a bit surprising; it really shouldn't surprise anyone whose eyes are open, as we're living in a very polarized and frightened world. These facts must be taken in account when viewing activity here.
Posted by doxogenic boy on March 5, 2014, at 15:11:10
In reply to Zero-tolerance Policies, posted by Ronnjee on March 4, 2014, at 10:39:08
> That's my understanding of what the thread-starter (and others) was advocating. Problem is, such policies lead to some really effed-up results, like the following:
>http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/04/student-points-finger-like-gun_n_4895507.htmlHow and why do you think this is comparable with a no-troll-policy to make a safe place for vulnerable people?
- doxogenic
Posted by doxogenic boy on March 5, 2014, at 15:19:55
In reply to Reality Check Regarding 'Trolls', posted by Ronnjee on March 5, 2014, at 12:35:37
> People spewing vitriol in some sort of media is far from a new thing, and it's not limited to online activity. In recent years, 24-hour TV and radio news media (like Fox News) and the interweb have provided endless outlets for outrage, and it's become an unfortunately common part of people's mode of expression, and it's not just coming from the rabble. We often see it from our elected officials, religious leaders, etc.. What happens here is merely a reflection of a broader phenomenon, and I don't find it a bit surprising; it really shouldn't surprise anyone whose eyes are open, as we're living in a very polarized and frightened world. These facts must be taken in account when viewing activity here.
I think we can have a safe and quiet place here even though trolls are dominating TV, radio, newspapers, politics and religion. It can be like going for a walk in the woods, to get a break from the noise in the city.A no-trolling area in a trollish society.
- doxogenic
Posted by Ronnjee on March 5, 2014, at 15:52:44
In reply to Re: A no-trolling area in a trollish society » Ronnjee, posted by doxogenic boy on March 5, 2014, at 15:19:55
I've already, in many posts, voiced my opinions about rules, unintended consequence, overkill, etc., so I won't repeat. Suffice it to say that there are no cut and dry answers to your questions. There is a lot of sublety involved, and it seems that somebody always gets the short end of the stick, so to speak, no matter what. It appears that Bob is trying to address your concerns, while not excluding others in the process.
I understand your feelings, but you might try to understand that they are not universal.
Posted by Ronnjee on March 5, 2014, at 16:27:43
In reply to Dox » doxogenic boy, posted by Ronnjee on March 5, 2014, at 15:52:44
When I moved to Florida, I bought a home with a swimming pool. My son was 5 at the time, and his worried mother started talking about special security fences, floating alarms and such safety devices. I said, "Why don't we just teach him how to swim?". And that's what we did. Boy, did he enjoy that pool, and that freedom! As did we.
Posted by doxogenic boy on March 5, 2014, at 17:31:48
In reply to A Little Tale, posted by Ronnjee on March 5, 2014, at 16:27:43
> When I moved to Florida, I bought a home with a swimming pool. My son was 5 at the time, and his worried mother started talking about special security fences, floating alarms and such safety devices. I said, "Why don't we just teach him how to swim?". And that's what we did. Boy, did he enjoy that pool, and that freedom! As did we.
What about kids who can't swim who jump into the swimming pool? There will always be someone who is unable to learn to swim, or who can't get swimming lessons.
- doxogenic
Posted by Ronnjee on March 5, 2014, at 17:40:44
In reply to Re: A Little Tale » Ronnjee, posted by doxogenic boy on March 5, 2014, at 17:31:48
That is true, but we don't just drain the entire pool to suit them. We set up one of those little inflatable pools, instead, while not robbing the adults of their fun. If Bob decides on an analog to that, will that suffice?
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 6, 2014, at 11:35:47
In reply to Re: Vulnerable People, posted by Twinleaf on March 5, 2014, at 8:21:41
> Support is great -at least, almost always. But if posters are acting out hostilities or emotional/cognitive distortions, focussing on them excessively could be having the effect of rewarding and reinforcing unhealthy behaviors. I believe this is, unfortunately, happening with Lou presently. If "trolls" are supported as they act out destructive behaviors, that would be equally unfortunate and equally unlikely to promote healthier, more constructive interactions.
>
> I would like to see destructive comments either ignored or mildly sanctioned, with support reserved for constructive, or at least neutral, interactions. But the board seems to be going in a direction which is increasingly irrelevant for minorities like me!
>
>
T_l,
You wrote,[...hostilities or emotional/cognitive distortions...unhealthy behaviors...destructive behaviors...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean by that. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. What are the hostilities that you are wanting to mean here?
B. What are the emotional/cognitive distortions that you are wanting to mean here?
C. What are the unhealthy behaviors that you are wanting to mean here?
D. By what authority do you use, if any, to include my name in your post that a subset of readers could think that you are using me as the subject person in your post?
E. What are the destructive behaviors that you are wanting to mean in your post?
F. redacted by respondent
Lou
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2014, at 10:55:52
In reply to Re: Vulnerable People, posted by Twinleaf on March 5, 2014, at 8:21:41
> > My view is that it's OK to educate people about trolls in general, but uncivil to accuse particular posters of being trolls.
> if posters are acting out hostilities or emotional/cognitive distortions ... I believe this is ... happening with Lou
>
> I would like to see destructive comments either ignored or mildly sanctionedPlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Twinleaf on March 11, 2014, at 11:45:25
In reply to Re: mild sanction » Twinleaf, posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2014, at 10:55:52
I am having a difficult time understanding what is uncivil about my saying that I would like to see destructive messages ignored or lightly sanctioned. I feel what I said was civil and respectful. Could you explain what you felt was uncivil?
Posted by SLS on March 11, 2014, at 12:21:26
In reply to Re: mild sanction, posted by Twinleaf on March 11, 2014, at 11:45:25
> I am having a difficult time understanding what is uncivil about my saying that I would like to see destructive messages ignored or lightly sanctioned. I feel what I said was civil and respectful. Could you explain what you felt was uncivil?
Pardon my intrusion and presumptions. I am *guessing* that your post would have been fine had you not identified a specific person as:
...posters are acting out hostilities or emotional/cognitive distortions
...rewarding and reinforcing unhealthy behaviors.
...I believe this is, unfortunately, happening with Lou presently.
> If "trolls" are supported as they act out destructive behaviors, that would be equally unfortunate and equally unlikely to promote healthier, more constructive interactions.
Rightly or wrongly, one might associate this statement with your earlier reference to a specific poster. Thus, it might appear that you are calling him a troll.
- Scott
Posted by Twinleaf on March 11, 2014, at 12:37:45
In reply to Re: mild sanction » Twinleaf, posted by SLS on March 11, 2014, at 12:21:26
Oh OK; I thnk you're right. I wasn't even thinking of him in terms of being a troll, but just questioning whether so much attention to what seemed to me like negative behavior would help him change in a positive way.
Those of us who have had children have learned, often through our own errors, that lots of genuine praise for correct, healthy behaviors combined with benign neglect and rare mild punishment for less desirable behaviors works really well - the child wants to do well and retains hgh self-esteem.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2014, at 14:11:17
In reply to Re: A no-trolling area in a trollish society » Ronnjee, posted by doxogenic boy on March 5, 2014, at 15:19:55
> Will there be a special sign-up procedure for entrance into a refuge forum?
>
> - ScottI was thinking it could be entered just like any other board. The introduction would explain how it was different.
--
> > I'm thinking about "blinders", a feature that would keep posters from even seeing the posts of other posters, also to help them feel safe.
>
> I support this idea. But one can see what the unwanted poster says, if other users quote him/her, unless it also is possible to blind replies to the unwanted poster. Maybe it can be a choice whether to blind just the unwanted poster or to blind replies to the poster too?Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. If X is blind to Y, should X also be blind to replies to Y, replies to those replies, etc.?
1. Y could be quoted in a post that's a reply to Z.
2. My inclination is to err on the side of being less blind than more.
> > My view is that it's OK to educate people about trolls in general, but uncivil to accuse particular posters of being trolls.
>
> Thank you for this clarification. But can you see the arguments for warning other posters againts malicious trolls, to protect their mental health and that those who warn about this can have good intentions?Yes, I see those arguments. Can you see the arguments against accusing particular posters of being trolls?
> then it is very difficult to support trolls without being exploited.
Why do you say that?
> http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/trolls-just-want-to-have-fun.pdf
>
> "Online trolling is the practice of behaving in a deceptive, destructive, or disruptive manner in a social setting on the Internet with no apparent instrumental purpose."
>
> "Also as expected, sadism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism scores were positively correlated with self-reported enjoyment of trolling, all rs >.37 (see Table 1), even when controlling for overall Internet use, all rs >.39"
>
> What do you think about the above-mentioned study, as a mental health professional?1. I wonder about their method of identifying trolls:
> > A second question probed their preferred activity when commenting online: "What do you enjoy doing most on these comment sites?" with five response options: "debating issues that are important to you", "chatting with other users", "making new friends", "trolling other users", and "other (specify)".
2. It makes them sound like bad people.
> I think we can have a safe and quiet place here even though trolls are dominating TV, radio, newspapers, politics and religion. It can be like going for a walk in the woods, to get a break from the noise in the city.
>
> A no-trolling area in a trollish society.
>
> - doxogenicThat would be the general idea of a Refuge board. But how would you define "troll"? Or operationalize "sadistic", "psychopathic", and "Machiavellian"? I don't think it would work to make everyone fill out a personality measure.
Bob
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