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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 181 to 205 of 225. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2013, at 11:38:27
In reply to Re: present and former deputies, posted by Dr. Bob on October 6, 2013, at 1:16:19
Of course we feel hurt, Dr. Bob. You know that the consistency of this poster has been a large part of the decision of more than one deputy to avoid Babble entirely.
It's the incessant nature of it. Any one thing may not be so bad. I should exercise my free will not to open posts I know will have a fairly decent chance of hurting me. I should know that after many years of crying over posts I've opened. Yet oddly I value this poster's contributions, as a whole, enough to not wish to do this. So I too begin to avoid Babble. If it's kept to Admin, I can just avoid Admin.
Which is why I didn't overmuch complain. If I open a Cygnet's posts on Admin, I deserve whatever pain I feel.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 10, 2013, at 1:04:49
In reply to Re: present and former deputies, posted by Dr. Bob on October 6, 2013, at 1:16:19
> I value their present and former contributions and sacrifices. Anybody else?
I wouldn't say there's been an outpouring of appreciation from posters. I hope that doesn't hurt them further. I feel disappointed.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 10, 2013, at 1:10:38
In reply to Do you have any hobbies besides Babble? » Dr. Bob, posted by HomelyCygnet on October 5, 2013, at 7:00:30
> the willingness of your present and former deputies to carry out your nastiness was and is despicable
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
PS: This block is the result of one action, but its length is the result of a pattern of actions. The block length formula:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
takes into account how long the previous block was, how long it's been since the previous block, and how uncivil the current post is:
duration of previous block = 4 weeks
period of time since previous block = 2 weeks
severity = 2 (default) + 1 (uncivil toward particular individual or group) = 3
block length = 11.42 rounded = 11 weeks
Posted by jane d on October 10, 2013, at 22:45:55
In reply to Re: present and former deputies, posted by Dr. Bob on October 10, 2013, at 1:04:49
> > I value their present and former contributions and sacrifices. Anybody else?
>
> I wouldn't say there's been an outpouring of appreciation from posters. I hope that doesn't hurt them further. I feel disappointed.
>
> Bob
I didn't see this thread before or I would have responded. I am very grateful to the deputies for what they did. If I were able to put in that much hard work, reply so consistently, articulately and usually kindly I would have considered trying to be a deputy myself. As it is, I am glad that they were here. And very much in awe of them.Jane
Posted by 10derheart on October 11, 2013, at 2:15:00
In reply to Re: present and former deputies, posted by jane d on October 10, 2013, at 22:45:55
Thank you, jane. It was difficult sometimes. But hardly all bad. I was/am honored to have worked with the other deputies because they are good people.
But please don't be in awe. Not of me, anyway :-)
Posted by SLS on October 11, 2013, at 6:14:42
In reply to Re: present and former deputies, posted by jane d on October 10, 2013, at 22:45:55
Hi Jane
> I am very grateful to the deputies for what they did. If I were able to put in that much hard work, reply so consistently, articulately and usually kindly I would have considered trying to be a deputy myself. As it is, I am glad that they were here. And very much in awe of them.
Me, too. I just wish that I had thought to acknowledge them as you have here.
- Scott
Posted by Twinleaf on October 11, 2013, at 17:55:48
In reply to Re: blocked for 11 weeks » HomelyCygnet, posted by Dr. Bob on October 10, 2013, at 1:10:38
I am very disappointed and discouraged to see the same old block formula. I think one of the reasons we can't offer more support for the former deputies is that they were basically forced to implement this extremely unpopular and unconstructive policy.
Posted by 10derheart on October 11, 2013, at 20:43:36
In reply to Re: blocked for 11 weeks Dr.Bob, posted by Twinleaf on October 11, 2013, at 17:55:48
>>I think one of the reasons we can't offer more support for the former deputies is that they were basically forced to implement this extremely unpopular and unconstructive policy.
First, that's not so. We were never forced to do anything, unless you count accepting Dr. Bob was in charge and was/is who he was/is...and even then we could abstain from certain boards, dealing with some posters, etc., or resign. I didn't mind the formula, for the most part, because I knew the spirit behind it was to try to respond to posters' complaints. Posters had been saying - repeatedly - that all of admin was arbitrary and not objective and so the formula was Dr. Bob's logical effort to eliminate the possibility (or the appearance) of that.
But at times when I saw it would result in a block that didn't sit well with me,given all the circumstances, I gave shorter lengths. No forcing.
If Dr. Bob didn't like it, he could lengthen it. He could always do anything he wanted with any block or anything else we did. His boards.Not sure I follow your thought here...what does offering support have to do with various blocking policies? I thought the support was a counterpoint to the idea we were carrying out nastiness and despicable for doing that. Perhaps you agree with that characterization, as is your right.
I guess janed sees other aspects to support. This must be since I doubt she offers her kind words due to what we did or did not do about blocks. Although, I could be wrong, as posters have expressed gratitude more than once for blocks they felt helped the community and were appropriate. There was **so** much more to being a deputy than blocking people. I doubt it would comprise even 20% of the time spent being a deputy here.
Anyway...you can't win with *any* particular blocking policy, IMO. People will dislike them all for different reasons.
Posted by Twinleaf on October 11, 2013, at 22:57:13
In reply to Re: blocked for 11 weeks Dr.Bob » Twinleaf, posted by 10derheart on October 11, 2013, at 20:43:36
As to the administrative policies, I never agreed with many of the pbc's, and thought that a blocking policy which lengthened so rapidly for (often) very minor or questionable incivilities was harmful. I think blocks are occasionally needed, but it may be just as effective if they are kept short. Those are just my own views
It would never occur to me to think of any of the deputies as nasty or despicable, but it was hard seeing you carry out, and hard to be supportive of policies which I felt were not helpful to the community - just my own view, not meant as any kind of personal attack at all.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 12, 2013, at 0:56:56
In reply to Re: blocked for 11 weeks Dr.Bob, posted by Twinleaf on October 11, 2013, at 17:55:48
> I am very disappointed and discouraged to see the same old block formula. I think one of the reasons we can't offer more support for the former deputies is that they were basically forced to implement this extremely unpopular and unconstructive policy.
I was disappointed to see the same old lack of support for deputies. If people receive more support, maybe incivility won't hurt as much. And blocking won't be as necessary. I didn't want to leave them sitting, um, ducks.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on October 12, 2013, at 8:23:39
In reply to Re: present and former deputies, posted by jane d on October 10, 2013, at 22:45:55
Thank you, Jane.
Your support has always meant so much to me.
Posted by Dinah on October 12, 2013, at 8:24:10
In reply to Re: present and former deputies » jane d, posted by SLS on October 11, 2013, at 6:14:42
Thank you, Scott.
Posted by Dinah on October 12, 2013, at 8:45:07
In reply to Re: support, posted by Dr. Bob on October 12, 2013, at 0:56:56
I appreciate your desire to help us feel supported, Dr. Bob. But I fear your efforts might lead to more pain for us as people explain why they can't give it.
How long has it been since we have had active deputies? My wish would only be for people to give up already on mentioning us in any complaints against current management. How long must we be punished? If we are willing, as I certainly am, to try to move past past hurts from posters, why can't others at least leave us alone?
The unkindnesses to us are far less than they once were. But it's like water on stone. The constant drip drip drip of negative comments. Why bother? There are no present deputies, and none are expected.
If people think we were misguided, or unkind, or cruel... If people don't realize how often we tried to avert blocks entirely... If people don't realize how we agonized over fairness and supportiveness... Well, can't they at least be glad we're no longer here as deputies? And in most cases not even here anymore as posters or administrative supporters. Is that not punishment enough?
Must people bring it up again and again and again? It isn't necessary to say whatever is in one's mind. If it is no longer relevant, why continue to mention it? The only result is to cause pain among present and former deputies. If that's not the goal, then why bother? If that is the goal, then it is being achieved and I wish those people who can be happy in it happy in it.
Posted by Dinah on October 12, 2013, at 8:47:05
In reply to Re: support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on October 12, 2013, at 8:45:07
I'm sorry. Of course there is a deputy. But I've seen no signs of current activity in quite a while.
Posted by Twinleaf on October 12, 2013, at 11:35:40
In reply to Re: support, posted by Dr. Bob on October 12, 2013, at 0:56:56
Just to make sure I am clear: I feel great admiration and support for all of the former deputies as people and as valuable members of our community. I have had wonderful and meaningful Interactions actions with them. I had a lot of empathy for them, watching them struggle to administer the policies as fairly as they could. I know it was very, very hard at times. I just can't support either Dr.Bob or the deputies carrying out policies which I felt were destructive to the well- being of the community. I think you all know this about me by now, and it doesn't need to keep coming up. It's really getting old!
Posted by Phillipa on October 12, 2013, at 18:29:53
In reply to Re: support, posted by Dinah on October 12, 2013, at 8:47:05
A few years at least is there really one or just a name? Phillipa
Posted by 10derheart on October 12, 2013, at 20:08:47
In reply to Re: present and former deputies » jane d, posted by SLS on October 11, 2013, at 6:14:42
Don't sweat it, Scott. I am not keeping track.
We already know how you feel :-)
Posted by 10derheart on October 12, 2013, at 20:10:04
In reply to Re: blocked for 11 weeks Dr.Bob » 10derheart, posted by Twinleaf on October 11, 2013, at 22:57:13
>>It would never occur to me to think of any of the deputies as nasty or despicable
I'm glad of that and thanks for taking the time to say so.
Posted by Dinah on October 13, 2013, at 8:37:26
In reply to Re: support » Dr. Bob, posted by Twinleaf on October 12, 2013, at 11:35:40
> Just to make sure I am clear: I feel great admiration and support for all of the former deputies as people and as valuable members of our community. I have had wonderful and meaningful Interactions actions with them. I had a lot of empathy for them, watching them struggle to administer the policies as fairly as they could. I know it was very, very hard at times.
I appreciate this, Twinleaf. And I also appreciate and thank you for saying it.
> I think you all know this about me by now, and it doesn't need to keep coming up. It's really getting old!
I appreciate and thank you for saying this as well.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 13, 2013, at 22:40:52
In reply to Re: support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on October 12, 2013, at 8:45:07
> I just can't support either Dr.Bob or the deputies carrying out policies which I felt were destructive to the well- being of the community.
>
> Twinleaf> I appreciate your desire to help us feel supported, Dr. Bob. But I fear your efforts might lead to more pain for us as people explain why they can't give it.
You may be right.
> My wish would only be for people to give up already on mentioning us in any complaints against current management.
>
> The unkindnesses to us are far less than they once were. But it's like water on stone. The constant drip drip drip of negative comments.
>
> Must people bring it up again and again and again? It isn't necessary to say whatever is in one's mind. If it is no longer relevant, why continue to mention it? The only result is to cause pain among present and former deputies. If that's not the goal, then why bother?
>
> DinahThe goal could be to improve Babble. Making it better for everyone might outweigh causing some people some pain. I feel that way myself at times. A civil community is better for everyone, so it's OK to cause some people some pain by blocking them, for example.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on October 14, 2013, at 8:15:37
In reply to Re: support, posted by Dr. Bob on October 13, 2013, at 22:40:52
How would mentioning deputies, when there are no active deputies and are not likely to be, improve Babble? What gains can there be above the pain caused to former deputies?
But that you can see gain that outweighs the pain, despite the lack of current deputies, reinforces my belief that **this** Babble is not really the sort of environment I wish to put myself in. I can change my life by changing my environment. I choose not be in an uncivil environment.
I guess I can thank you for that.
Posted by Twinleaf on October 14, 2013, at 16:04:06
In reply to Re: support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on October 14, 2013, at 8:15:37
Dinah has a very good point. It has been several years since there were any active deputies (I know Racer still contributes, but rarely). The deputies' ability to help you carry out the civility and blocking policies of several years ago apparently weakened and then ceased at the same time that you stopped actively administering these policies, in what seemed like a tacit recognition that they were causing a lot of stress and distress. I think we assumed that you knew that a site dedicated to mutual support and education had gone off-course, and you wanted to find a way to correct that.
Do you really expect that we will support the deputies for trying to carry out policies which simply weren't working well? Isn't it a given that they have all been outstanding members of the community who are all valued and supported as people? What is missing , in your mind? What support would you like from us that you feel we are not giving? It actually appears that you are asking for support for your own previous policies. I had hoped, and thought, that we had all grown from acknowledging the mistakes of that era, and are now working together to put them behind us. But, sadly, as Sigi has noted, perhaps not.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 20, 2013, at 23:47:21
In reply to Re: support. Dr.Bob, posted by Twinleaf on October 14, 2013, at 16:04:06
> How would mentioning deputies, when there are no active deputies and are not likely to be, improve Babble? What gains can there be above the pain caused to former deputies?
Support could be above, or at least at the same level as, pain.
> But that you can see gain that outweighs the pain, despite the lack of current deputies, reinforces my belief that **this** Babble is not really the sort of environment I wish to put myself in. I can change my life by changing my environment. I choose not be in an uncivil environment.
>
> DinahI still consider this environment civil, even if it's not exactly a refuge. (Reasonable people can disagree.)
> Do you really expect that we will support the deputies for trying to carry out policies which simply weren't working well? ... What is missing , in your mind? What support would you like from us that you feel we are not giving?
>
> TwinleafI do expect posters to support the deputies for contributing to and making sacrifices for Babble. They put themselves in harm's way. Maybe Deputies Day could be the Babble version of Veterans Day.
Bob
Posted by Twinleaf on October 21, 2013, at 6:31:04
In reply to Re: support, posted by Dr. Bob on October 20, 2013, at 23:47:21
This is where we have a difference of opinin which I'm afraid cannot be bridged. You know that I feel great respect and support for each deputy, and I do admire their willingness to help administer your policies - including bearing the stresses which came with doing that. You mention that they put themselves in harm's way, and that is true. But - and this is all-important to me - I never harmed them , but they did harm me by helping to administer blocking policies towards me which to this day I consider very harsh and extreme. I have forgiven it but I would be stupid to forget it. I think it is very disrespectful of you to expect me to support actions which were harmful to me. I do feel the deputies were trying to be helpful, and did not mean to hurt anyone, but the blocking policy towards me in particular at that time was so harsh that hostility, punishment and emotional hurt were, unfortunately, an inevitable part of it.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 21, 2013, at 23:37:36
In reply to Re: support » Dr. Bob, posted by Twinleaf on October 21, 2013, at 6:31:04
> I feel great respect and support for each deputy, and I do admire their willingness to help administer your policies - including bearing the stresses which came with doing that. You mention that they put themselves in harm's way, and that is true.
Thanks, I appreciate that.
> But - and this is all-important to me - I never harmed them , but they did harm me by helping to administer blocking policies towards me which to this day I consider very harsh and extreme. I have forgiven it but I would be stupid to forget it. I think it is very disrespectful of you to expect me to support actions which were harmful to me. I do feel the deputies were trying to be helpful, and did not mean to hurt anyone, but the blocking policy towards me in particular at that time was so harsh that hostility, punishment and emotional hurt were, unfortunately, an inevitable part of it.
I accept, and regret, that my policies harmed you.
Maybe it's asking too much to expect posters who've been harmed by my policies to support the deputies. Maybe it's like expecting victims of friendly fire to support the military. Maybe forgiveness is all that can be expected.
(You may not have intended to harm the deputies, but may have. Just like they may not have intended to harm you, but may have.)
I wonder if a rapprochement might be possible. Should we start with me? Do you also feel I, through my policies, was trying to be helpful and didn't mean to hurt anyone?
Bob
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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