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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 128 to 152 of 157. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on December 29, 2006, at 11:40:24
In reply to Re: clarification for SLS - trigger I think., posted by madeline on December 29, 2006, at 10:01:40
Hi Maddie.
Thanks for clarifying.
I'll have to think about that for awhile.
- Scott
> I think that the ability of posters to discuss suicide ideation and seek support to fight that ideation is a valuable component of babble. A lot of posters, including me, have received this support and it has really helped to move them toward a more hopeful place.
>
> However, when you allow this kind of discussion you also open the door for all kinds of abuse of that support.
>
> I think this kind of abuse is most acute when it is reference to the behavior of other posters or even the routine administration of the board.
>
> For instance, I think it is appropriate for a poster to say that "you know, I feel very triggered when people don't do/say/act in the way that I want and I need some help working through this"
>
> You see, that post elicits support and help from the other posters. No one feels put down or responsible for the way the poster is reacting. In fact, the door is opened for them to help the other poster.
>
> What I think is not okay is when a poster says "What you said/did made me feel like committing suicide"
>
> This is not a post asking for help, it makes people feel accused and directly responsible for the way that person feels. I don't think anyone could argue it is a not so subtle form of manipulation.
>
> To me, it makes the other posters feel very hurt, unsafe, taken advantage of and coerced.
>
> Also a characteristic of this form of communication is that it tends to escalate and repeat until the desired behaviour from people is achieved.
>
> To me, threatening suicide in order to elicit a behaviour from someone clearly falls well below the civility requirements of babble and yet, to me, I haven't seen it addressed by the the powers that be (although it may have been).
>
> If the powers agree with me, I would like to see a policy explicitly stated (restated) that covers suicide threats in reponse to other posters. I would also like to see the specific adminstrative action that could result from this kind of "offense".
>
> Now, having said all this, I will add a caveat. It may allow people to completely write off my concerns as specific to me, or just as a function of some deficit on my part. My mother was the queen of this kind of coercion. Everything I said or did would lead to a suicide threat on her part - leading me to suspect that one day I would just finally kill my mother by simply being around.
>
> That kind of responsiblity is simply too much for anyone to bear.
>
> It may not be possible, but I would simply like to be free from this on babble.
>
> Maddie
Posted by AuntieMel on December 29, 2006, at 15:47:07
In reply to (((((auntie mel))))) » AuntieMel, posted by karen_kay on December 28, 2006, at 14:07:59
Over your knee? Could be fun.
Thanks for understanding. And I'm doing fine, considering.
Posted by karen_kay on December 29, 2006, at 16:05:21
In reply to Re: Ooohhhhh » karen_kay, posted by AuntieMel on December 29, 2006, at 15:47:07
you reminded me a little of me when you posted that. and i understood it completely. geez, you try to liven a situation up a bit (and that can be very helpful btw. my husband and i fight all the time and sometimes in the middle of a fight i'll say something stupid and it helps. not that you said anything stupid. geez, i give up.
but, i felt bad for you anyway. doesn't seem fair that someone tries to help and it gets taken the wrong way completely. see, you may feel a bit better now, because everyone'll say i'm being insensitive. (grunt)
back to that spanking.....
kk
Posted by Declan on December 29, 2006, at 16:35:34
In reply to Re: Ooohhhhh » AuntieMel, posted by karen_kay on December 29, 2006, at 16:05:21
We couldn't have, like, a Spanking Board, could we?
How would it work?
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 29, 2006, at 16:47:34
In reply to Re: Ooohhhhh » AuntieMel, posted by karen_kay on December 29, 2006, at 16:05:21
> you reminded me a little of me when you posted that. and i understood it completely. geez, you try to liven a situation up a bit (and that can be very helpful btw. my husband and i fight all the time and sometimes in the middle of a fight i'll say something stupid and it helps. not that you said anything stupid. geez, i give up.
>
> but, i felt bad for you anyway. doesn't seem fair that someone tries to help and it gets taken the wrong way completely. see, you may feel a bit better now, because everyone'll say i'm being insensitive. (grunt)
>
> back to that spanking.....
>
> kkFriends,
It is written here,[...g*ez, you try to liven up a situation...it gets >taken the wrong way {completly}<...back to that...].
I have a different point of view to the aspects of this and could email with anyone if they like to see my perspective.
Lou
lpilder_1188@fuse.net
Posted by karen_kay on December 29, 2006, at 20:37:21
In reply to Re: Ooohhhhh » karen_kay, posted by Declan on December 29, 2006, at 16:35:34
in my closet (some call it a paddle) and i could only imagine how that would work on the internet. who'd have thought that thinking cap could be so fun (and dirty :)
Posted by Declan on December 29, 2006, at 21:58:39
In reply to i've got a spanking board.. » Declan, posted by karen_kay on December 29, 2006, at 20:37:21
Hmmmmmm
Posted by muffled on December 29, 2006, at 23:33:47
In reply to Paddle hey? » karen_kay, posted by Declan on December 29, 2006, at 21:58:39
Not to offend anyone, but, HF is blocked, but she CAN still read, and no doubt does.
I think many of us have a hard time dragging ourselves away, even if we know its triggering us.
In this very thread HF states that abuse, or anything that links to 'that' type of abuse(beating) is terribly triggering to her at this time.
I would just respectfully ask that mebbe we can stop talking bout that kinda stuff, when a poster we care about is obviosly struggling hard, and as I said, has already specifically and clearly stated that its triggering to her.
So I don't know how else to phrase this?
I am trying to be polite.
If I get blocked for this, well, then I just DON'T understand. And thats why I have fear on this site, and why I come to admin too, cuz I want to understand, and recently I can't understand some of these blocks :(
And noone will explain.
Muffled
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 30, 2006, at 0:18:41
In reply to Re: clarification for SLS - trigger I think., posted by madeline on December 29, 2006, at 10:01:40
Beautifully written. I FEEL I can totally agree with you. Well said
> I think that the ability of posters to discuss suicide ideation and seek support to fight that ideation is a valuable component of babble. A lot of posters, including me, have received this support and it has really helped to move them toward a more hopeful place.
>
> However, when you allow this kind of discussion you also open the door for all kinds of abuse of that support.
>
> I think this kind of abuse is most acute when it is reference to the behavior of other posters or even the routine administration of the board.
>
> For instance, I think it is appropriate for a poster to say that "you know, I feel very triggered when people don't do/say/act in the way that I want and I need some help working through this"
>
> You see, that post elicits support and help from the other posters. No one feels put down or responsible for the way the poster is reacting. In fact, the door is opened for them to help the other poster.
>
> What I think is not okay is when a poster says "What you said/did made me feel like committing suicide"
>
> This is not a post asking for help, it makes people feel accused and directly responsible for the way that person feels. I don't think anyone could argue it is a not so subtle form of manipulation.
>
> To me, it makes the other posters feel very hurt, unsafe, taken advantage of and coerced.
>
> Also a characteristic of this form of communication is that it tends to escalate and repeat until the desired behaviour from people is achieved.
>
> To me, threatening suicide in order to elicit a behaviour from someone clearly falls well below the civility requirements of babble and yet, to me, I haven't seen it addressed by the the powers that be (although it may have been).
>
> If the powers agree with me, I would like to see a policy explicitly stated (restated) that covers suicide threats in reponse to other posters. I would also like to see the specific adminstrative action that could result from this kind of "offense".
>
> Now, having said all this, I will add a caveat. It may allow people to completely write off my concerns as specific to me, or just as a function of some deficit on my part. My mother was the queen of this kind of coercion. Everything I said or did would lead to a suicide threat on her part - leading me to suspect that one day I would just finally kill my mother by simply being around.
>
> That kind of responsiblity is simply too much for anyone to bear.
>
> It may not be possible, but I would simply like to be free from this on babble.
>
> Maddie
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 30, 2006, at 0:21:12
In reply to i've got a spanking board.. » Declan, posted by karen_kay on December 29, 2006, at 20:37:21
???? How is this supportive ? Is it a joke? Maybe a trigger on it in social would be best for others who have had to deal with cs?
> in my closet (some call it a paddle) and i could only imagine how that would work on the internet. who'd have thought that thinking cap could be so fun (and dirty :)
Posted by karen_kay on December 30, 2006, at 9:15:26
In reply to GUYS?, posted by muffled on December 29, 2006, at 23:33:47
sorry.
Posted by 10derHeart on December 30, 2006, at 12:22:45
In reply to GUYS?, posted by muffled on December 29, 2006, at 23:33:47
Posted by Declan on December 30, 2006, at 19:48:12
In reply to right » muffled, posted by karen_kay on December 30, 2006, at 9:15:26
So you took the rap?
That's good.
Posted by madeline on December 31, 2006, at 7:56:54
In reply to Blocked » Happyflower, posted by gardenergirl on December 27, 2006, at 12:50:37
How long will happyflower's block be?
Posted by karen_kay on December 31, 2006, at 9:55:42
In reply to Re: right » karen_kay, posted by Declan on December 30, 2006, at 19:48:12
sometimes i don't think before i type. my problem. nothing a good, long block won't cure.
sorry happyflower, i wasn't trying to be disrespectful, even though i was. sorry again.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 31, 2006, at 15:25:06
In reply to Please do not post to me Notfred » notfred, posted by Deneb on December 26, 2006, at 20:21:07
> I'm not reading this thread. It upsets me too much. I saw you posted something above. I just realized I rescinded my DNP when I replied to you. I'm reinstating my DNP.
I've been thinking:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20061018/msgs/696737.html
and I'd like to try something new. You can request that notfred not post to you, but I'd rather lines of communication stayed open, so I think I'd prefer not to enforce this unless you feel harassed and it's necessary as a last resort. If you do feel harassed and see this a last resort, could you let me know, by babblemail or email, what it is that makes you feel that way and what steps you've already taken to address this? Then I'll post something if I'm going to enforce this.
Since this is a new procedure, I'm also interested in questions, comments, and suggestions regarding it.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 31, 2006, at 15:25:09
In reply to Blocked » Happyflower, posted by gardenergirl on December 27, 2006, at 12:50:37
> I've asked Dr. Bob to determine the length of the block.
According to the current system:
previous block: 3 weeks
period of time since previous block: 24 weeks
uncivil toward a particular individual or group: yes
particularly uncivil: no
different type of incivility: no
clearly didn't understand PBC and made effort to reply: no
provoked: no
uncivil in multiple posts at same time: no
already archived: noIf we take 24 weeks, divide by 10, and round, that's a reduction of 2 weeks. If we apply that to her previous block, that's 3 - 2 = 1 week. And if we triple that, that's 3 weeks again.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 31, 2006, at 15:25:12
In reply to Re: clarification for SLS - trigger I think., posted by madeline on December 29, 2006, at 10:01:40
> When people imply that they are going to swallow 300 pills with Vodka, I feel very helpless because there is little I can do to change their actions if they are no longer posting. Such behaviour makes me feel manipulated in some ways. I don't know if the person is half dead somewhere or reading the board looking to see the reactions of other members on the board. It's not healthy to receive or look for negative attention.
>
> it's not healthy for me to read these type of posts so I will just ignore them.
>
> MaximeThanks for the I-statements. It's hard to care about someone and at the same time to feel unable to help them.
Negative attention may not be healthy, but some people prefer it to no attention at all. It is, however, healthy to refrain from something that's not healthy for you, and I'm glad you're able to do that.
--
> > > I am more upset by "threats" - especially those that that imply suicide to be the consequences of the content/action/support gotten or NOT gotten from other posters or Adm.
> >
> > It's a policy here not to pressure others, so that should be covered?
>
> Yes, that *would* cover it. I don't see that guideline used very often on the boards.
>
> FarkusWell, at least it's covered. Maybe it's not used as much as it should be, I don't know. Please notify us (with the notification button) if you think there's an issue. It may be hard to agree on what's implied and how to take that into account, but I do think this is important for us to address.
> I would like to see a policy explicitly stated (restated) that covers suicide threats in reponse to other posters. I would also like to see the specific adminstrative action that could result from this kind of "offense".
>
> MaddieIt's a policy here not to pressure others, and that includes by threatening suicide. Regarding enforcement, see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
--
> Theoretically, I would feel manipulated if suicide was repeatedly, and knowingly, used inplace of a (perhaps less loaded) emotion. I feel that reducing such a devastating act to a synonym for "confused", "hurt", "angry", "afraid", "rejected", "lonely", or any other emotion makes light of that type of death.
Manipulated to what end, with what goal in mind? I'm not sure about "in place of", people can feel both confused and suicidal, hurt and suicidal, etc.
> I would feel offended if a process like that could be acknowledged by each party involved, "apoligized" for, and yet repeated over - without consequence. It would make me feel manipulated and unsafe
>
> ElaineMI understand, it can be hard. But OTOH it's not necessarily easy for people to break patterns of behavior, either.
> I think it would be very helpful to hear, "you can get help, you can do this, this, and this and here's what happened when I did it, and I'm glad I did it" rather than "snap out of it", "you're such a downer", "stop being so dramatic", or "be more responsable for yourself". Unfortuneately, such sentiments are fairly common with a lot of people who don't know what it is like to feel very depressed, and getting loads of such "advice" can be very discouraging.
>
> laimaI agree, it's not helpful to hear. But maybe even if they did know what depression was like, they could still feel manipulated or something?
> What I think is not okay is when a poster says "What you said/did made me feel like committing suicide"
>
> This is not a post asking for help, it makes people feel accused and directly responsible for the way that person feels. I don't think anyone could argue it is a not so subtle form of manipulation.I agree, it could lead someone to feel accused and therefore be considered uncivil.
OTOH, it could also be a way of asking for help. Or of explaining something without a hidden agenda. I'm wary of jumping to conclusions.
> Now, having said all this, I will add a caveat. ... My mother was the queen of this kind of coercion. Everything I said or did would lead to a suicide threat on her part - leading me to suspect that one day I would just finally kill my mother by simply being around.
>
> That kind of responsiblity is simply too much for anyone to bear.
>
> It may not be possible, but I would simply like to be free from this on babble.
>
> MaddieThanks for connecting this with other issues. Suicide threats are something we can try to do something about, but always feeling responsible may be up to you to work on...
Bob
Posted by notfred on December 31, 2006, at 15:54:05
In reply to Re: requests not to be posted to » Deneb, posted by Dr. Bob on December 31, 2006, at 15:25:06
I think this is generally a good idea. I think in some cases DNP's are used as a weapon or to attempt to inflict hurt.
In this case I think it is best if I do not post to Deneb. That is just my personal choice & she is free to post to me.> > I'm not reading this thread. It upsets me too much. I saw you posted something above. I just realized I rescinded my DNP when I replied to you. I'm reinstating my DNP.
>
> I've been thinking:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20061018/msgs/696737.html
>
> and I'd like to try something new. You can request that notfred not post to you, but I'd rather lines of communication stayed open, so I think I'd prefer not to enforce this unless you feel harassed and it's necessary as a last resort. If you do feel harassed and see this a last resort, could you let me know, by babblemail or email, what it is that makes you feel that way and what steps you've already taken to address this? Then I'll post something if I'm going to enforce this.
>
> Since this is a new procedure, I'm also interested in questions, comments, and suggestions regarding it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
Posted by Declan on December 31, 2006, at 15:57:54
In reply to Re: requests not to be posted to » Deneb, posted by Dr. Bob on December 31, 2006, at 15:25:06
Despite the rationale for DNPs, they seem to mean 'you're not allowed to talk to me, and if you do I can get you in trouble'.
So, I think this is an improvement.
Empowering anger is not going to protect anyone, is it?
Posted by muffled on December 31, 2006, at 16:20:55
In reply to Re: requests not to be posted to, posted by notfred on December 31, 2006, at 15:54:05
> In this case I think it is best if I do not post to Deneb. That is just my personal choice & she is free to post to me.**Aaack, yeah, don't post. Same thing happened to me. Bob said he wanted us to talk about it, so I said what would happen if I posted?...and Bob said I would be blocked! But the way he phrased it was like I was SUPPOSED to post. Can't find the thread.
>
> > > I'm not reading this thread. It upsets me too much. I saw you posted something above. I just realized I rescinded my DNP when I replied to you. I'm reinstating my DNP
> > http://www.dr-b.org/babble/admin/20061018/msgs/696737.html**I pasted this thread and all I got was something in german.
> >
> > and I'd like to try something new. You can request that notfred not post to you, but I'd rather lines of communication stayed open, so I think I'd prefer not to enforce this unless you feel harassed and it's necessary as a last resort. If you do feel harassed and see this a last resort, could you let me know, by babblemail or email, what it is that makes you feel that way and what steps you've already taken to address this? Then I'll post something if I'm going to enforce this.**YEAH! Like this. So is the DNP still valid or not????? This is very UNCLEAR TO ME.
> >
> > Since this is a new procedure, I'm also interested in questions, comments, and suggestions regarding it.
>**So at this point, if notfred posted to Deneb he would be blocked?
Even though Deneb broke the DNP by posting to notfred,and notfred posted back, can notfred STILL be blocked for this if Deneb complains?
This is all so unclear to me.
I must be terrible dense.
Forget it, I KNOW I dense.
Muffled
Posted by notfred on December 31, 2006, at 16:45:49
In reply to DON'T POST/Bob » notfred, posted by muffled on December 31, 2006, at 16:20:55
>
> Forget it,
> Muffled
Good idea.
Posted by muffled on December 31, 2006, at 19:30:10
In reply to Re: DON'T POST/Bob, posted by notfred on December 31, 2006, at 16:45:49
Posted by notfred on January 1, 2007, at 1:39:48
In reply to Re: feeling pressured or accused, posted by Dr. Bob on December 31, 2006, at 15:25:12
> I think it would be very helpful to hear, "you can get help, you can do this, this, and this and here's what happened when I did it, and I'm glad I did it" rather than "snap out of it", "you're such a downer", "stop being so dramatic", or "be more responsable for yourself". Unfortuneately, such sentiments are fairly common with a lot of people who don't know what it is like to feel very depressed, and getting loads of such "advice" can be very discouraging.
>
> laimaI think this board is a place were most everyone
has very personal knowledge about being very depressed, or some other mental illness. Some of us have decades of personal experience in this area.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 1, 2007, at 4:49:09
In reply to DON'T POST/Bob » notfred, posted by muffled on December 31, 2006, at 16:20:55
> Same thing happened to me. Bob said he wanted us to talk about it, so I said what would happen if I posted?...and Bob said I would be blocked! But the way he phrased it was like I was SUPPOSED to post. Can't find the thread.
Let me know if you find that thread. I think I know which one you're talking about, and don't think that's what I meant.
> > > http://www.dr-b.org/babble/admin/20061018/msgs/696737.html
>
> I pasted this thread and all I got was something in german.Try this link instead:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20061018/msgs/696737.html
> > > and I'd like to try something new. You can request that notfred not post to you, but I'd rather lines of communication stayed open, so I think I'd prefer not to enforce this unless you feel harassed and it's necessary as a last resort. If you do feel harassed and see this a last resort, could you let me know, by babblemail or email, what it is that makes you feel that way and what steps you've already taken to address this? Then I'll post something if I'm going to enforce this.
>
> YEAH! Like this. So is the DNP still valid or not????? This is very UNCLEAR TO ME.It's understandable that it's unclear, it's something new. It's a valid request, meaning it's something she can ask, but if I don't think it's necessary as a last resort, I won't enforce it.
Bob
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