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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 157. Go back in thread:
Posted by Farkus on December 24, 2006, at 7:01:50
In reply to Re: Good Bye Posts *Trigger*, posted by Farkus on December 24, 2006, at 6:46:18
> Sometimes, I feel chronic postings can be a form of manipulation.
>Change to:
I have felt manipulated by some posts that chronically speak of thoughts and actions of suicide.
Posted by Maxime on December 24, 2006, at 9:02:58
In reply to Restate - *Trigger*, posted by Farkus on December 24, 2006, at 7:01:50
> > Sometimes, I feel chronic postings can be a form of manipulation.
> >
>
> Change to:
>
> I have felt manipulated by some posts that chronically speak of thoughts and actions of suicide.
>
>I agree, it is manipulation. However I think there is a difference between:
a. Someone stating that they are suicidal
and b. Someone implying or stating that they are going to act out on a plan.
It is the latter which upsets me the most and I don't think it should be tolerated. Most boards have strict rules about this kind of behaviour in that it is simply not allowed. People are usually banned.
Maxime
Posted by Deneb on December 24, 2006, at 10:47:43
In reply to Re: Good Bye Posts *Trigger*, posted by Farkus on December 24, 2006, at 6:46:18
I'm not upset by good-bye posts. I feel bad for the person who wrote them and I usually give them some virtual hugs. I think saying the person is being manipulative will make the person feel even worse. I don't think these people are being manipulative.
I think the worse thing that could happen is for people to become angry. I don't understand why people sometimes get so angry. I never get angry when I read about people who think about suicide.
Maxime, you often write about feeling suicidal. I don't get angry when I read that. I just wish you would feel better.
Deneb*
Posted by Farkus on December 24, 2006, at 11:26:36
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger* » Farkus, posted by Maxime on December 24, 2006, at 9:02:58
> > > Sometimes, I feel chronic postings can be a form of manipulation.
> > >
> >
> > Change to:
> >
> > I have felt manipulated by some posts that chronically speak of thoughts and actions of suicide.
> >
> >
>
> I agree, it is manipulation. However I think there is a difference between:
>
> a. Someone stating that they are suicidal
>
> and b. Someone implying or stating that they are going to act out on a plan.
>I agree and sometimes that's a dicey area for me to figure out. I think if I take the attitude that Adm. has, from time to time, regarding the "good" of the group versus the "good" of the individual - which may not be the same, I conclude there are many reasons to not allow the postings and a few to allow them.
I admit I am more upset by "threats" - especially those that that imply suicide to be the consequences of the content/action/support gotten or NOT gotten from other posters or Adm.
Posted by notfred on December 24, 2006, at 13:14:34
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger* » Maxime, posted by Farkus on December 24, 2006, at 11:26:36
" I admit I am more upset by "threats" - especially those that that imply suicide to be the consequences of the content/action/support gotten or NOT gotten from other posters or Adm. "
I agree. It is called manipulative behavior.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manipulation
In a psychological context, manipulation means to influence a person or a group of people in such a way that the manipulator tries to get what he or she wants or makes a person believe something in a calculating, indirect and somewhat dishonest way. Like indoctrination, it is a form of psychological abuse.
For example, a manipulator will
* use arguments that the manipulator does not believe in himself
* use of false reasoning as with fallacies and paralogisms
* withhold or distort relevant information,
* provide false information (disinformation)
* "play" on the emotions (fear, hope, love...) of the person.
* physically move the person, like a puppet
I do not have a problem with people posting about
suicidal ideation. I am conserned that the frequency at which this topic comes up will cause
others to ignore all posts on this subject. I would suspect people do stop coming here when the treats of sucide increase. Moreso if there is manipulative behavior.
Posted by Maxime on December 24, 2006, at 13:17:29
In reply to Re: Good Bye Posts *Trigger*, posted by Deneb on December 24, 2006, at 10:47:43
> I'm not upset by good-bye posts. I feel bad for the person who wrote them and I usually give them some virtual hugs. I think saying the person is being manipulative will make the person feel even worse. I don't think these people are being manipulative.
>
> I think the worse thing that could happen is for people to become angry. I don't understand why people sometimes get so angry. I never get angry when I read about people who think about suicide.
>
> Maxime, you often write about feeling suicidal. I don't get angry when I read that. I just wish you would feel better.
>
> Deneb*Yes, I write about feeling suicidal all the time (welcome to my world). But I WOULD NEVER post that I am going to act on my thoughts. If I successfully kill myself, you aren't going to read about on here.
SOME people are being manipulative when they post a "Good Bye" post because they get off on seeing the reaction they get. It makes them feel better to know that people care. I do care about others, but if you post that you are kill yourself there is little I can do and it makes me feel helpless. And there are some people who just like to read the responses.
And as I have said, it is NOT ACCEPTABLE *BEHAVIOUR* on most forums. It is wrong and I think there should be reprocussions for people who engage in such behaviour on PB.
Maxime
Posted by Maxime on December 24, 2006, at 13:23:44
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger*, posted by notfred on December 24, 2006, at 13:14:34
> I agree. It is called manipulative behavior.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manipulation
>
> In a psychological context, manipulation means to influence a person or a group of people in such a way that the manipulator tries to get what he or she wants or makes a person believe something in a calculating, indirect and somewhat dishonest way. Like indoctrination, it is a form of psychological abuse.
> I do not have a problem with people posting about
> suicidal ideation. I am conserned that the frequency at which this topic comes up will cause
> others to ignore all posts on this subject. I would suspect people do stop coming here when the treats of sucide increase. Moreso if there is manipulative behavior.
>
>
>
>Thanks for that clarification from Wikipedia. It hits the nail on the head.
I often write that I am suicidal (and I am), but it doesn't mean that I am going to act on my thoughts. And if I have plans to act on my thoughts, I would NEVER write about it here.
I think there should be a policy re. this issue. One member had me really upset and if Phillipa had not posted that he was okay I would still be wondering and concerned.
Maxime
Posted by Maxime on December 24, 2006, at 13:27:32
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger* » Maxime, posted by Farkus on December 24, 2006, at 11:26:36
> > I agree, it is manipulation. However I think there is a difference between:
> >
> > a. Someone stating that they are suicidal
> >
> > and b. Someone implying or stating that they are going to act out on a plan.
> >
>
> I agree and sometimes that's a dicey area for me to figure out. I think if I take the attitude that Adm. has, from time to time, regarding the "good" of the group versus the "good" of the individual - which may not be the same, I conclude there are many reasons to not allow the postings and a few to allow them.
>
> I admit I am more upset by "threats" - especially those that that imply suicide to be the consequences of the content/action/support gotten or NOT gotten from other posters or Adm.I think that given the nature of this board that there will be members who will talk about suicide. But just because you talk about it doesn't mean you going to act on the thoughts.
I am really more concerned with the "Good Bye" posts that I believe are manipulative and disturbing for the other members.
Well, at least 3 membera agree on this issue. You, myself and NotFred.
Maxime
Posted by fayeroe on December 24, 2006, at 13:55:26
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger*, posted by Maxime on December 24, 2006, at 13:27:32
>
> > > I agree, it is manipulation. However I think there is a difference between:
> > >
> > > a. Someone stating that they are suicidal
> > >
> > > and b. Someone implying or stating that they are going to act out on a plan.
> > >
> >
> > I agree and sometimes that's a dicey area for me to figure out. I think if I take the attitude that Adm. has, from time to time, regarding the "good" of the group versus the "good" of the individual - which may not be the same, I conclude there are many reasons to not allow the postings and a few to allow them.
> >
> > I admit I am more upset by "threats" - especially those that that imply suicide to be the consequences of the content/action/support gotten or NOT gotten from other posters or Adm.
>
> I think that given the nature of this board that there will be members who will talk about suicide. But just because you talk about it doesn't mean you going to act on the thoughts.
>
> I am really more concerned with the "Good Bye" posts that I believe are manipulative and disturbing for the other members.
>
> Well, at least 3 membera agree on this issue. You, myself and NotFred.
>
> Maximeand me!
Posted by Farkus on December 24, 2006, at 14:17:18
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger*, posted by Maxime on December 24, 2006, at 13:27:32
> Well, at least 3 membera agree on this issue. You, myself and NotFred.
>I am glad you brought this issue up.
Posted by notfred on December 24, 2006, at 17:41:55
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger*, posted by Maxime on December 24, 2006, at 13:27:32
> I think that given the nature of this board that there will be members who will talk about suicide. But just because you talk about it doesn't mean you going to act on the thoughts.
>I totally agree. If people have thoughts of suicide
I would want them to discuss them. There is not need to justify why you have these thoughts, everyone has the right to have their feelings.
Posted by Deneb on December 24, 2006, at 21:22:05
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger*, posted by notfred on December 24, 2006, at 17:41:55
I'm curious, are you guys talking about me?
I've never actually threatened suicide here, only to Dr. Bob in e-mail. I've posted about my urges to do suicidal things and OD, but I've never actually posted that I'm going to do X at Y time, only to Bob.
Deneb*
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 24, 2006, at 23:55:56
In reply to Re: Good Bye Posts *Trigger* » Deneb, posted by Maxime on December 24, 2006, at 13:17:29
> I am more upset by "threats" - especially those that that imply suicide to be the consequences of the content/action/support gotten or NOT gotten from other posters or Adm.
>
> FarkusIt's a policy here not to pressure others, so that should be covered?
--
> Yes, I write about feeling suicidal all the time (welcome to my world). But I WOULD NEVER post that I am going to act on my thoughts. If I successfully kill myself, you aren't going to read about on here.
Well, if you did post that you intended to, it's possible that you might get more support and change your mind. And if you did kill yourself, we might still read about it here afterwards...
I've said elsewhere that: The online ventilation of suicidal ideation can be an important part of suicide prevention, and the expression of suicidal thoughts and feelings is not prohibited here. This may enable suicidal posters to receive more effective support, but there are trade-offs: it may also be stressful for other members, attract suicidal posters (and thereby increase the incidence of suicide in the group), and make the group more vulnerable to false reports.
> SOME people are being manipulative when they post a "Good Bye" post because they get off on seeing the reaction they get. And there are some people who just like to read the responses.
>
> It is wrong.Please remember not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Like the above.
> It makes them feel better to know that people care. I do care about others, but if you post that you are kill yourself there is little I can do and it makes me feel helpless.
>
> And as I have said, it is NOT ACCEPTABLE *BEHAVIOUR* on most forums. I think there should be reprocussions for people who engage in such behaviour on PB.
>
> MaximeNow, however, the above are OK. Please try to stick to support and I-statements like that? Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Farkus on December 25, 2006, at 7:45:03
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger*, posted by Deneb on December 24, 2006, at 21:22:05
> I'm curious, are you guys talking about me?
>
I'm speaking about a behavior and to say a particular poster engages in that behavior would be an accusation to the person. For me, it's more about "what" is being done (IMO) than "who" is doing it. I've been here for a number of years and while sorta uncommon, this behavior wasn't recently invented.
Posted by Maxime on December 25, 2006, at 11:56:02
In reply to Re: Good Bye Posts *Trigger*, posted by Dr. Bob on December 24, 2006, at 23:55:56
> > I am more upset by "threats" - especially those that that imply suicide to be the consequences of the content/action/support gotten or NOT gotten from other posters or Adm.
> >
> > Farkus
>
> It's a policy here not to pressure others, so that should be covered?
>
> --
>
> > Yes, I write about feeling suicidal all the time (welcome to my world). But I WOULD NEVER post that I am going to act on my thoughts. If I successfully kill myself, you aren't going to read about on here.
>
> Well, if you did post that you intended to, it's possible that you might get more support and change your mind. And if you did kill yourself, we might still read about it here afterwards...
>
> I've said elsewhere that: The online ventilation of suicidal ideation can be an important part of suicide prevention, and the expression of suicidal thoughts and feelings is not prohibited here. This may enable suicidal posters to receive more effective support, but there are trade-offs: it may also be stressful for other members, attract suicidal posters (and thereby increase the incidence of suicide in the group), and make the group more vulnerable to false reports.
>
> > SOME people are being manipulative when they post a "Good Bye" post because they get off on seeing the reaction they get. And there are some people who just like to read the responses.
> >
> > It is wrong.
>
> Please remember not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Like the above.
>
> > It makes them feel better to know that people care. I do care about others, but if you post that you are kill yourself there is little I can do and it makes me feel helpless.
> >
> > And as I have said, it is NOT ACCEPTABLE *BEHAVIOUR* on most forums. I think there should be reprocussions for people who engage in such behaviour on PB.
> >
> > Maxime
>
> Now, however, the above are OK. Please try to stick to support and I-statements like that? Thanks,
>
> BobWhen people imply that they are going to swallow 300 pills with Vodka, I feel very helpless because there is little I can do to change their actions if they are no longer posting. Such behaviour makes me feel manipulated in some ways. I don't know if the person is half dead somewhere or reading the board looking to see the reactions of other members on the board. It's not healthy to receive or look for negative attention.
However, I can see that you do not agree with any of this so I will not mention it again. But it's not healthy for me to read these type of posts so I will just ignore them.
Other members posted similiar responses to mine, but you picked on me because I was recently blocked. I feel singled out.
I feel like no one gives a damn. And I am 100% certain that if I kill myself no one will read about it here. I don't communicate with people outside of the Forum to protect myself.
Maxime
Posted by Maxime on December 25, 2006, at 11:57:05
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger*, posted by Deneb on December 24, 2006, at 21:22:05
> I'm curious, are you guys talking about me?
>
> I've never actually threatened suicide here, only to Dr. Bob in e-mail. I've posted about my urges to do suicidal things and OD, but I've never actually posted that I'm going to do X at Y time, only to Bob.
>
> Deneb*
>
>
>
>
>
>No.
Maxime
Posted by fayeroe on December 25, 2006, at 12:30:57
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger* » Deneb, posted by Maxime on December 25, 2006, at 11:57:05
we're talking, at least i am, about people repeatedly bringing up the subject and perhaps trying to manipulate other posters into paying them more attention or whatever.........pat
Posted by notfred on December 25, 2006, at 15:32:15
In reply to Re: Good Bye Posts *Trigger* » Dr. Bob, posted by Maxime on December 25, 2006, at 11:56:02
> However, I can see that you do not agree with any of this so I will not mention it again. But it's not healthy for me to read these type of posts so I will just ignore them.
>
> Other members posted similiar responses to mine, but you picked on me because I was recently blocked. I feel singled out.
>I think you will find that Dr John Grohol's rules for his site are more in keeping with what some of us are asking for. Perhaps it helps that Dr. John is a psychologist.
http://psychcentral.com/about/ :
"Dr. John Grohol's Psych Central began as a concept in the fall of 1994, after the World Wide Web looked as though it were here to stay. Launched in January 1995 as Psych Central: John Grohol's Mental Health Page, it was an instant hit from the beginning with its directory of online mental health resources and the first symptom lists for mental disorders published online. Within the first 3 months, it received Point's prestigious Top 5% of the Web award, as well as a fair amount of media attention in the ensuing years. Consistently rated as one of the Top 5 mental health resources online, it is updated more often and more reliably than most others online today."
http://forums.psychcentral.com/rules:
Inappropriate ContentThis is, first and foremost, a self-help support community. That means if your message (post or PM) isn't about offering support to another person or asking for it, it's potentially not appropriate for our community. Specifically prohibited from our community:
* Advertisements of any sort
* Announcements of one's own Web site, new resource, or book
* Announcements for research projects
* Flames or messages meant to intimidate or harass others
* Threatening or profane messages
* Messages discussing a private message (PM) from others
* Messages containing suicidal threats or suicidal actions
* Triggering material without the use of the Trigger Icon Trigger iconForums are Research-Free
These forums strictly prohibit any research being conducted on them for any purpose whatsoever. Any user of this forum is prohibited from conducting research on the forums in any form, whether it be as a group or on an individual poster.
I don't believe it feels very good or very safe if you feel like anything you might want to share or write about might one day end up in some random professional journal, archived for all of time. I prohibit any and all research to be conducted on posts herein.
Who owns what I write here?
Each author is the sole owner of his or her own posts. Forums automatically expire posts written after a certain date, though, and your posts are deleted after that time. Nobody is allowed to reproduce your post under US copyright provisions unless you give explicit permission for them to do so or they are making use of part of your post under the 'fair use' provisions of copyright case law.
Posted by Happyflower on December 25, 2006, at 16:17:25
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger*, posted by fayeroe on December 25, 2006, at 12:30:57
> we're talking, at least i am, about people repeatedly bringing up the subject and perhaps trying to manipulate other posters into paying them more attention or whatever.........pat
I totally agree with this above statement because I have felt manipulated on more than one instance
and I was
unable to offer the support that I felt was "demanded" by me. I simply will not play into manipulation games here or anywhere else personally for that matter.
I still feel manipulated because the person crying "wolf" knows I won't play the game anymore, and refuses to leave me alone, and is now what I feel is using the stiuation to gain even more attention from others, like poor me, happyflower won't talk to me, is ignoring me,and continues to what I feel is manipulating me through babblemail, threads, and chat. What do I do when I get such a demanding babble mail to either pay attention to me or I will kill myself? But yet when I say they are being manipulating or that I am being manipulated in a secret babble language that I don't understand, I risk getting blocked, when I try to do something about it. Maybe that is the whole idea to hurt others, like me, so they can suppposly feel better about themselves? I don't know, really,but I have had enough BS, and would like the behavior that I feel is harrassing to stop, NOW!
Posted by fayeroe on December 25, 2006, at 16:59:36
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger* » fayeroe, posted by Happyflower on December 25, 2006, at 16:17:25
> > we're talking, at least i am, about people repeatedly bringing up the subject and perhaps trying to manipulate other posters into paying them more attention or whatever.........pat
>
> I totally agree with this above statement because I have felt manipulated on more than one instance
> and I was
> unable to offer the support that I felt was "demanded" by me. I simply will not play into manipulation games here or anywhere else personally for that matter.
> I still feel manipulated because the person crying "wolf" knows I won't play the game anymore, and refuses to leave me alone, and is now what I feel is using the stiuation to gain even more attention from others, like poor me, happyflower won't talk to me, is ignoring me,
>
> and continues to what I feel is manipulating me through babblemail, threads, and chat. What do I do when I get such a demanding babble mail to either pay attention to me or I will kill myself? But yet when I say they are being manipulating or that I am being manipulated in a secret babble language that I don't understand, I risk getting blocked, when I try to do something about it. Maybe that is the whole idea to hurt others, like me, so they can suppposly feel better about themselves? I don't know, really,but I have had enough BS, and would like the behavior that I feel is harrassing to stop, NOW!i'm sorry that you're experiencing that. i, too, have gone through that on another mental health forum and i alternated between being furious and so frustrated that i couldn't hardly deal with the poster. that website eventually bans posters who harrass other members. it usually doesn't take too long once their process gets going. it isn't fair to come to a site for support and end up being the victim of an attention seeking poster.
i wish i knew how to help you........pat
Posted by Deneb on December 25, 2006, at 17:03:40
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger* » fayeroe, posted by Happyflower on December 25, 2006, at 16:17:25
I never babblemailed Happyflower with any threats. If she is receiving such threats it must be from someone pretending to be me.
I have slipped up and wrote I feel like doing bad things because I felt ignored in chat and I'm sorry about that. I was feeling bad because I felt ignored. I'm not used to feeling ignored and don't know how to handle it in a healthy way.
Deneb*
Posted by Farkus on December 25, 2006, at 17:13:42
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger* » Happyflower, posted by fayeroe on December 25, 2006, at 16:59:36
I'm an old friend from an Easter weekend of long, long ago (remember???).... Wanted to tell you that : 0.
Okay, I know, keep it adm....
Good to see you.
Posted by fayeroe on December 25, 2006, at 17:27:41
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger* » fayeroe, posted by Farkus on December 25, 2006, at 17:13:42
> I'm an old friend from an Easter weekend of long, long ago (remember???).... Wanted to tell you that : 0.
>
> Okay, I know, keep it adm....
>
> Good to see you.OMG.........................do i ever remember it???????? i am dying laughing, snorting........OMG.......what a memory? but i need a name......babblemail?
Posted by fayeroe on December 25, 2006, at 17:28:50
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger*, posted by Deneb on December 25, 2006, at 17:03:40
> I never babblemailed Happyflower with any threats. If she is receiving such threats it must be from someone pretending to be me.
>
> I have slipped up and wrote I feel like doing bad things because I felt ignored in chat and I'm sorry about that. I was feeling bad because I felt ignored. I'm not used to feeling ignored and don't know how to handle it in a healthy way.
>
> Deneb*i'm sorry, Deneb, but i wasn't talking about you. pat
Posted by Maxime on December 25, 2006, at 22:12:08
In reply to Re: Restate - *Trigger* » fayeroe, posted by Happyflower on December 25, 2006, at 16:17:25
> > we're talking, at least i am, about people repeatedly bringing up the subject and perhaps trying to manipulate other posters into paying them more attention or whatever.........pat
>
> I totally agree with this above statement because I have felt manipulated on more than one instance
> and I was
> unable to offer the support that I felt was "demanded" by me. I simply will not play into manipulation games here or anywhere else personally for that matter.
> I still feel manipulated because the person crying "wolf" knows I won't play the game anymore, and refuses to leave me alone, and is now what I feel is using the stiuation to gain even more attention from others, like poor me, happyflower won't talk to me, is ignoring me,
>
> and continues to what I feel is manipulating me through babblemail, threads, and chat. What do I do when I get such a demanding babble mail to either pay attention to me or I will kill myself? But yet when I say they are being manipulating or that I am being manipulated in a secret babble language that I don't understand, I risk getting blocked, when I try to do something about it. Maybe that is the whole idea to hurt others, like me, so they can suppposly feel better about themselves? I don't know, really,but I have had enough BS, and would like the behavior that I feel is harrassing to stop, NOW!I totally agree, but unfortunately Dr. Bob does not.
But thank you for expressing yourself better than I could ever do myself.
Maxime
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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