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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 154. Go back in thread:
Posted by zazenduckie on November 27, 2006, at 16:59:15
In reply to Re: Lou's response to aspects of zazenducky's post » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on November 26, 2006, at 8:48:40
>
> Do you feel that Psycho-Babble played a causative role in the suicide of Ame Sans Vie?
>No, not causative. But I think someone should take a careful look at whether ASV's relationship with Babble was good either for himself or for others who read the years of archived posts Dr Bob keeps available to the public. I hope someone lets us know what the cause of death was and whether the years of extreme medication and other substance use he described here contributed.
The last post (or one of the last) that he made before his reported death was a recipe for making poppy tea.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20061013/msgs/697253.html
Another thread concerns his unusual drug regimen. I think the reaction of the other posters is also notable.
One of the most pognant lines from ASV's replies to one of his admirers is as follows
.....................
> How does your doctor let you have two barbiturates and two benzodiazepines, and Desoxyn? my goodness you sound like elvis presley and all his prescriptions.
>
> MWAH!lmfao, I love the Elvis analogy, lmao. It was painfree in my case to get all these things prescribed. For one thing, my psychiatrist, therapist, and GP all know I'm quite savvy when it comes to psychopharmacology. And of course, my pdoc had all my medical records from prior doctors that I personally requested be released to him so he could see the extent and debilitating nature of my dillema.
.........................Like Elvis Presley indeed but so much younger.
I don't know if his drug taking had anything to do with his death. If it did I hope someone holds his doctors accountable.
As for Babble I don't know. For me it was troubling to read those posts. Dr Bob is always saying your freedom of speech is limited here and I wonder if he has ever considered what impact this kind of speech and information sharing may have. I wish someone would think seriously about this. No point in sending in an adverse incident report...they just go to Dr Bob. Is there any accountability at all anywhere for internet medical forums? I don't think there is but I think maybe there should be.
I've read all the disclaimers etc etc. I think Dr Bob is responsible for everything that is posted here in the same way a publisher is responsible for what is printed in his newspaper. His use of his professional title while disclaiming all responsibility troubles me.
At the same time I am aware that many people say Babble helps them.
Posted by Dinah on November 27, 2006, at 17:02:09
In reply to Ame Sans Vie and Babble, posted by zazenduckie on November 27, 2006, at 16:59:15
Thanks for explaining your thinking.
Posted by zazenduckie on November 27, 2006, at 17:07:35
In reply to Re: Never mind » zazenducky, posted by Racer on November 25, 2006, at 13:02:03
> I'm not sure what this means? My interpretation, which I very much hope is inaccurate,Totally inaccurate.
Posted by zazenduckie on November 27, 2006, at 17:10:51
In reply to Lou's response to aspects of zazenducky's post » zazenducky, posted by Lou Pilder on November 25, 2006, at 15:45:31
Posted by madeline on November 27, 2006, at 17:15:53
In reply to Ame Sans Vie and Babble, posted by zazenduckie on November 27, 2006, at 16:59:15
I like the new spelling.
I don't want to sound too forward, but would you mind turning your babblemail on?
I have some thoughts on this subject as well.
Posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2006, at 20:01:31
In reply to Re: Ame Sans Vie and Babble » zazenduckie, posted by madeline on November 27, 2006, at 17:15:53
Wow slow down. I'm in contact with his Mother and she is grateful to babble and fellow babblers. And babble in no way had anything to do with his death.I will let you all know when his Mother let's me know the toxicology report. But he had cut way back on his meds and was very happy cause he felt better getting back to work with his band music that is. Love Phillipa
Posted by notfred on November 27, 2006, at 22:01:47
In reply to Re: Ame Sans Vie and Babble, posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2006, at 20:01:31
I agree with Phillipa. Speculating before the fact
just does not seem right. Plenty of time later for other issues if the facts support it.
Posted by Declan on November 27, 2006, at 23:26:14
In reply to Re: Ame Sans and Babble, posted by notfred on November 27, 2006, at 22:01:47
It is a particularly hazardous time of life for young men.
Posted by zazenduckie on November 28, 2006, at 8:06:31
In reply to Ame Sans Vie and Babble, posted by zazenduckie on November 27, 2006, at 16:59:15
I'm sorry. I shouldn't have brought that quote down. I was responding to the question as I have rephrased it below. notfred is right that it would be premature to speculate about a specific cause of death. But I think it is reasonable to ask about the role of his unusual drug taking which he described on Babble.
I certainly didn't mean any disrespect to the dead. I'm sorry if I upset you Phillipa. I am sure this has been a difficult time for you.
> >
> > Do you feel that Psycho-Babble played a causative role in the (death) of Ame Sans Vie?
> >
>
> No, not causative. But I think someone should take a careful look at whether ASV's relationship with Babble was good either for himself or for others who read the years of archived posts Dr Bob keeps available to the public. I hope someone lets us know what the cause of death was and whether the years of extreme medication and other substance use he described here contributed.
>
> The last post (or one of the last) that he made before his reported death was a recipe for making poppy tea.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20061013/msgs/697253.html
>
> Another thread concerns his unusual drug regimen. I think the reaction of the other posters is also notable.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl?post=/usr/local/apache/htdocs/babble/20051106/msgs/576091.html#576091
>
> One of the most pognant lines from ASV's replies to one of his admirers is as follows
> .....................
> > How does your doctor let you have two barbiturates and two benzodiazepines, and Desoxyn? my goodness you sound like elvis presley and all his prescriptions.
> >
> > MWAH!
>
> lmfao, I love the Elvis analogy, lmao. It was painfree in my case to get all these things prescribed. For one thing, my psychiatrist, therapist, and GP all know I'm quite savvy when it comes to psychopharmacology. And of course, my pdoc had all my medical records from prior doctors that I personally requested be released to him so he could see the extent and debilitating nature of my dillema.
> .........................
>
> Like Elvis Presley indeed but so much younger.
>
> I don't know if his drug taking had anything to do with his death. If it did I hope someone holds his doctors accountable.
>
> As for Babble I don't know. For me it was troubling to read those posts. Dr Bob is always saying your freedom of speech is limited here and I wonder if he has ever considered what impact this kind of speech and information sharing may have. I wish someone would think seriously about this. No point in sending in an adverse incident report...they just go to Dr Bob. Is there any accountability at all anywhere for internet medical forums? I don't think there is but I think maybe there should be.
>
> I've read all the disclaimers etc etc. I think Dr Bob is responsible for everything that is posted here in the same way a publisher is responsible for what is printed in his newspaper. His use of his professional title while disclaiming all responsibility troubles me.
>
> At the same time I am aware that many people say Babble helps them.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by zazenduckie on November 28, 2006, at 8:19:30
In reply to Re: Ame Sans Vie and Babble » zazenduckie, posted by madeline on November 27, 2006, at 17:15:53
> I like the new spelling
O thank you. I keep doing the change your password and forget it routine to self block and then have to reregister with a new name each time. I only lasted 5 days this time. I'm pitiful! Maybe I should freeze the password in a gallon of water and then defrost it when I change my mind instead of reregistering like SI people do with razor blades. Then maybe the impulse would pass.
>
> I don't want to sound too forward, but would you mind turning your babblemail on?I'm sorry I don't babblemail. But thanks for asking :)
>
Posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 11:36:11
In reply to Re: Ame Sans Vie and Babble Correction, posted by zazenduckie on November 28, 2006, at 8:06:31
I do understand how you feel. I didn't know him personally cyberspace know and I was involved cause he wrote his first e-mail to me that day and his Mother found it on the computer which is how I became involved. Aplogy accepted. No problem at all But could we let him rest? Love Phillipa
Posted by zazenduckie on November 28, 2006, at 12:21:06
In reply to Re: Ame Sans Vie and Babble Correction » zazenduckie, posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 11:36:11
>> But could we let him rest?
Phillipa with all due respect, I am not disturbing his rest.
I was talking about administrative issues and have said about all I have to say at this time. I don't think anything will ever come of it. But I thought it needed to be said.
It's hugely horribly sad when somebody that young dies. I think it's natural to wonder if anything could have made a difference for him or for someone else here.
But as a favour to you I'll try to shut up for awhile.
Posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 20:21:42
In reply to Re: Ame Sans Vie and Babble Correction » Phillipa, posted by zazenduckie on November 28, 2006, at 12:21:06
I don't want you to feel badly. I think there is merit in what your goals are. I in my opinion only think the internet is not that safe for young people. Not this site as a duputy or Bob usually steps in and helps with the issue. What bothers me is the internet sites with things like mixing med combos that could hurt you and things like that. I think here that the eating board as you brought it up could help a lot of people. There will always be those who use the internet shall we say wrong or misguided? Love Phillipa ps no news yet on the other.
Posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 20:34:01
In reply to Ame Sans Vie and Babble, posted by zazenduckie on November 27, 2006, at 16:59:15
> > Do you feel that Psycho-Babble played a causative role in the suicide of Ame Sans Vie?
(Not determined to be a suicide)
> No, not causative.Then what?
> But I think someone should take a careful look at whether ASV's relationship with Babble was good either for himself or for others who read the years of archived posts Dr Bob keeps available to the public.
Do you feel that the extent to which free speech is allowed on Psycho-Babble provides information by which the majority of readers hurt themselves?
> I hope someone lets us know what the cause of death was and whether the years of extreme medication and other substance use he described here contributed.
What would be the importance of having this information? Do you suppose that his intent to post on Psycho-Babble his experiences with medication influenced his behavior? Did his posting through the years influence the behavior of others? Is there any evidence that such influence was harmful to a single person? And what if it was? What is the threshold that one should use to judge the benefits versus dangers of Psycho-Babble?
- Scott
Posted by zazenduckie on November 29, 2006, at 12:07:04
In reply to Re: Ame Sans Vie and Babble » zazenduckie, posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 20:34:01
> > > Do you feel that Psycho-Babble played a causative role in the suicide of Ame Sans Vie?
>
> (Not determined to be a suicideI was actually posting under the assumption that the unusual drug consumption might be implicated in an accidental poisoning rather than an outright suicide. Or that years of the drug regimen he described might have compromised his health in other ways that led to his death. I thought Phillipa had posted that it wasn't a suicide.
>
> > No, not causative.
>
> Then what?I think if a poster posted about taking a combination of narcotics amphetamines and barbituates and various herbal mixtures and stated his opinion that he was something of an expert on pharmacology and the board gave him a forum and reinforced that opinion and gave him positive feedback that perhaps they colluded to some extent.
>
> > But I think someone should take a careful look at whether ASV's relationship with Babble was good either for himself or for others who read the years of archived posts Dr Bob keeps available to the public.
>
> Do you feel that the extent to which free speech is allowed on Psycho-Babble provides information by which the majority of readers hurt themselves?I don't know. I wouldn't think so.
>
> > I hope someone lets us know what the cause of death was and whether the years of extreme medication and other substance use he described here contributed.
>
>> What would be the importance of having this information?Because his opinions and advice are still in the archives as well as his medication history and it would put that
in perspective.
>>Do you suppose that his intent to post on Psycho-Babble his experiences with medication influenced his behavior?I don't know. Sometimes people have said they are going to try a certain medicine and report back to Babble. I don't know if ASV did. I wouldn't think that was a very big influence, but I don't know. People will sometimes do things for an audience they wouldn't otherwise do.
>>Did his posting through the years influence the behavior of others?Possibly.
>>Is there any evidence that such influence was harmful to a single person?
I don't know. I think it would be good if someone impartial went through the archives and tried to find out. But I don't think that is very likely to happen.
>> And what if it was?
If it was I think it would be prudent to remove whatever posts were leading to harm even for a single person. And to reconsider the posting guidelines.
>>What is the threshold that one should use to judge the benefits versus dangers of Psycho-Babble?I don't know. I think I'd go with Hippocrates. First of all do no harm.
Posted by verne on November 29, 2006, at 12:55:00
In reply to Re: Ame Sans Vie and Babble » zazenduckie, posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 20:34:01
I don't think the recipe of drugs (and the dosages) described would stand up to scrutiny by a medical review board. This doctor needs to lose his license.
Now I'll take my block. (make it a long one)
verne
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 29, 2006, at 16:33:20
In reply to Re: Ame Sans Vie and Babble » SLS, posted by zazenduckie on November 29, 2006, at 12:07:04
> > > > Do you feel that Psycho-Babble played a causative role in the suicide of Ame Sans Vie?
> >
> > (Not determined to be a suicide
>
> I was actually posting under the assumption that the unusual drug consumption might be implicated in an accidental poisoning rather than an outright suicide. Or that years of the drug regimen he described might have compromised his health in other ways that led to his death. I thought Phillipa had posted that it wasn't a suicide.
> >
> > > No, not causative.
> >
> > Then what?
>
> I think if a poster posted about taking a combination of narcotics amphetamines and barbituates and various herbal mixtures and stated his opinion that he was something of an expert on pharmacology and the board gave him a forum and reinforced that opinion and gave him positive feedback that perhaps they colluded to some extent.
>
>
> >
> > > But I think someone should take a careful look at whether ASV's relationship with Babble was good either for himself or for others who read the years of archived posts Dr Bob keeps available to the public.
> >
> > Do you feel that the extent to which free speech is allowed on Psycho-Babble provides information by which the majority of readers hurt themselves?
>
> I don't know. I wouldn't think so.
>
>
> >
> > > I hope someone lets us know what the cause of death was and whether the years of extreme medication and other substance use he described here contributed.
> >
> >> What would be the importance of having this information?
>
> Because his opinions and advice are still in the archives as well as his medication history and it would put that
> in perspective.
>
>
> >>Do you suppose that his intent to post on Psycho-Babble his experiences with medication influenced his behavior?
>
> I don't know. Sometimes people have said they are going to try a certain medicine and report back to Babble. I don't know if ASV did. I wouldn't think that was a very big influence, but I don't know. People will sometimes do things for an audience they wouldn't otherwise do.
>
>
> >>Did his posting through the years influence the behavior of others?
>
> Possibly.
>
> >>Is there any evidence that such influence was harmful to a single person?
>
> I don't know. I think it would be good if someone impartial went through the archives and tried to find out. But I don't think that is very likely to happen.
>
> >> And what if it was?
>
> If it was I think it would be prudent to remove whatever posts were leading to harm even for a single person. And to reconsider the posting guidelines.
>
>
> >>What is the threshold that one should use to judge the benefits versus dangers of Psycho-Babble?
>
> I don't know. I think I'd go with Hippocrates. First of all do no harm.
>
Friends,
It is written above,[...poster posted about taking (...a combination of narcotics,amphetimines, barbituates...)..board gave him a forum..perhaps they colluded...]
I think that what ZZDuk has posted is one of the top ten most important issues here for this and other mental health forums.
Lou
>
>
>
>
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 29, 2006, at 16:56:58
In reply to Lethal Cocktail of Drugs?, posted by verne on November 29, 2006, at 12:55:00
Friends,
It is written here,[...I don't think the recipe of drugs..would stand up to scrutiny. >This< doctor...].
The grammatical structure of the statement could mean that in [...>This< doctor...]that the doctor could be the doctor that prescribed the drugs, if they were prescribed. But the statement writes,>his< licence. So that could mean that the {doctor} is a male, but I am unsure of that from what is written. However, there could be another interpretation to the statement.
Lou
Posted by zazenduckie on November 29, 2006, at 17:54:52
In reply to Re: Ame Sans Vie and Babble » SLS, posted by zazenduckie on November 29, 2006, at 12:07:04
perhaps they colluded to some extent.
>
I think "were complicit to some extent" would be a better choice of phrase.
Posted by Phillipa on November 29, 2006, at 19:07:02
In reply to Rephrasing » zazenduckie, posted by zazenduckie on November 29, 2006, at 17:54:52
Still no word from his Mother. I'll e-mail her again and see if she found out anything. Love Phillipa ps even his quoted friend e-mailed me that he always thought what he took was atrocious. So babble didn't hurt this young person.
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 29, 2006, at 19:41:08
In reply to Lethal Cocktail of Drugs?, posted by verne on November 29, 2006, at 12:55:00
Friends,
It is written here,[...recipe..dosages described..medical review board...lose his license...].
I think that the dosages described in AmSnV's posts could raise the question as to if they are or are not within the PDR's ranges as combined in the manner that AmSnV writes. As to if a doctor needs to lose his/her license for such a prescription,if there was a prescription,and if the doctor in question is the one that wrote a prescription to ASV, I do not know. The question that I have, is if it is OK for the members here to post their concern about the drugs being described as being taken, and if so, do the rules for the forum in any way restrain one from posting that they do not believe that the combination and the dosages posted could be supportive and that others should not follow the example given. I would like the reader to review the posts here by ZZD for other aspects of this discussion.
Lou
Posted by Jost on November 29, 2006, at 19:56:29
In reply to Re: Ame Sans Vie and Babble » SLS, posted by zazenduckie on November 29, 2006, at 12:07:04
One small (or not so small) point.
The Hippocratic oath requires a very high degree of care--that's why it's so significant in the ideal behavior of the ideal physician. Far from the level one could expect from a casual relationship, or even a fairly demanding standard of responsibility--
how an online message board could possibly meet that standard is beyond me.
That would effectively end Psychobabble, which I think would do a disservice to us all.
Jost
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 29, 2006, at 20:14:35
In reply to Re: Ame Sans Vie and Babble, posted by Jost on November 29, 2006, at 19:56:29
Friends,
It is written here,[...a high degree of care..Far from the level one could expect....how (this forum)..could..meet that standard is beyond me...].
The statndard that ZZDuk proposed, was [...to do no harm...] and to,[...reconsider the posting guidlines...].
I think that we could look at what the agenda of this forum is centered on and go from there.
Lou
Posted by zazenduckie on November 29, 2006, at 20:35:53
In reply to Re: Ame Sans Vie and Babble, posted by Jost on November 29, 2006, at 19:56:29
> One small (or not so small) point.
>
> The Hippocratic oath requires a very high degree of care--that's why it's so significant in the ideal behavior of the ideal physician. Far from the level one could expect from a casual relationship, or even a fairly demanding standard of responsibility--
Jost I did NOT suggest that the board provide any care at all or that it follow the Hippocratic oath. I was using just the single thought that the first priority is to do no harm. It was in response to this question of SLS
>>What is the threshold that one should use to judge the benefits versus dangers of Psycho-Babble?What is the threshhold you would use Jost? How much harm are you willing to tolerate for how much benefit?
And how would you determine whether it is helping or hurting? I think that would be difficult.
Is the fact that someone is here for many years proof it is helping or proof it is hurting?
I don't think the fact that someone stays here is proof it is helping necessarily. If one person feels fulfilled giving bad advice to a number of people and one person takes the bad advice and is harmed is that OK? That's 50-50. What if 99 people are not harmed and 1 is very damaged?
>
>
Posted by Phillipa on November 29, 2006, at 20:46:42
In reply to Re: Ame Sans Vie and Babble » Jost, posted by zazenduckie on November 29, 2006, at 20:35:53
I spoke with his Mother via e-mail tonight the report is not in yet but according to his Mother who is deeply grieving all I will say is the final was not from babble but an outside site. Love Phillipa I hope she doesn't read these posts she's hurting so badly .
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
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