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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 102 to 126 of 134. Go back in thread:
Posted by JenStar on July 29, 2005, at 20:03:25
In reply to Re:Another idea, posted by Dr. Bob on July 29, 2005, at 1:06:38
Dr. Bob & all...hmmmm....other options....
I think one other option is to stay calm and collected at all times, refuse to get rattled, and firmly but civily keep telling the 'suspected troublemaker' that I feel XXX when I read YYY. But in the case of certain posters, such responses seem to have extremely little effect. It's like putting a band-aid on cancer! --- in the short term, anyway. Long term I think that approach can work, because the troubled person sees a certain stability and sees that there is only one way to communicate with you/me/etc, and that is in a civil way.
However, I still do believe that some posters get a kick out of using words to the brink of civility, and know the buttons to push to rile people up, and do it on purpose. I can't prove that, but I think I know it when I see it. In that case...ignoring is probably the best option, because that person doesn't want to reason, and wants to irritate others. But my buttons can be pretty pushable...
I think that as a group we fall prey to the 'prisoner's dilemma' when confronted with an angry trouble-making poster. To achieve the best possible outcome for the group, we should ALL ignore the poster. ALL of us, all the time. In that case, a strong silent message would be sent, and the poster would quickly change (or go away) of his/her own accord. But each of us does not believe or that others will do this, and desires to respond personally (because this is the second best option and gives immense immediate satisfaction, although it may bring long term trouble).
And then there are dozens of conflicting messages and the troubled poster does not receive a consistent message that their posts should change.
Of course, that above scenario is ldealized to assumed that everyone DOES actually want to the poster to change! I find that is really quite rare IBL ("In Babble Life.") I've found that there are people who are quite compassionate, or know something about the person that makes them more sympathetic, or are curious, or are genuinely interested -- and are not interested in making someone change or go away. So there is no formal "group think" that compels the person to act a certain way, at least not in the short term.
I think YOUR gentle method of nudging people to civility works like a tugboat pulling a barge. At first it seems to be doing nothing, but over time the efforts pay off and the huge barge moves in the right direction. I guess I just like to be 1,000 speed power boats instead of a barge! (Even if that doesn't always work!) But in general I agree with your method. I just wish it worked faster.
Hmmmmm.
I also recognize that my example of throwing stones was an imperfect analogy, because stones IRL is more damaging and potentially harmful than posts HERE. But the spirit still moves me the same way!
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on July 29, 2005, at 20:09:58
In reply to Re:Another idea » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 29, 2005, at 4:45:31
I can go miles and miles on a tiny bit of validation from any of you on the boards here! Sometimes a compliment from a fellow Babbler makes me happy all day. I hope nobody thinks that is weird. I get that way about compliments IRL, too.
:)
JenStar
Posted by alexandra_k on July 29, 2005, at 21:22:18
In reply to Re:Another idea » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 29, 2005, at 4:45:31
I guess it is because Dr Bob provides the boards for us to give and receive support from one another. I don't think any one person could provide all that much support to all the posters here. People vary with respect to how much time they have. How much energy they have. How they are feeling. It isn't part of Dr Bob's role here to provide support to the posters. His role is more to moderate the boards in such a way as to facilitate our supporting each other. If he were to step in to provide support then that could lead to a couple of undesirable things:
- people might come to turn to Dr Bob for support rather than the other posters.
- there wouldn't be enough time in the day for Dr Bob to be able to offer support to every poster who wants it from him.
- i don't think anyone would have the energy to be able to do this consistently to all the posters here.
- that would mean that he would have to be selective...
- and that would mean that more people would perceive favouritism and end up disgruntled.
- that more people would be disgruntled if they didn't receive support from him when they had come to expect it.
- if he encourages people to expect support from him then if he doesn't provide it he might well be more responsible for their bad feelings...> I think there are those here, myself included, who will never be persuaded that walking away and leaving others to take care of the wounded is ok because the responsibility is diffused and they don't have to.
I don't feel a sense of obligation to post anymore. I am trying to accept that sometimes I can't figure out what to say that might help. In those cases... I figure its best for me to not say anything. Maybe someone else will do better than I was able. And most often... When I manage to accept that I'm not obliged to do anything then something useful occurs to me. Life can be funny like that sometimes.
> How about people look to gather examples of situations where support is given without escalation of the drama triangle, or without making a second wrong. I'll bet lots of people can remember their own favorite example of being impressed by someone managing to do that.
> Then you can look at them all and come up with a list of suggestions or even just a list of links, that you can offer to people for guidance when they don't wish to ignore someone feeling hurt, but do wish to intervene in a "legal" way if possible.Or maybe we can suggest posters look at that...
> I understand your desire to do as little as possible, and I think your wish to remain as little a part of what goes on here other than as an administrator is both... Well, ok. I was going to validate a bit here, but honestly I think it's sort of a loss to us Babblers and maybe to you as well. But I do understand it as well.I think...
That the more he says
The more involved he gets
The harder it would be to remain a rock or anchor or whatever.
If we gained Dr Bob as a poster
Then we would lose him as a relatively solid / objective moderator who does his best to act in the interests of the boards as a whole.
I do wonder...
Whether he is ever tempted to join up as a poster and have a vent about some of the crummier aspects of his life...
But anyway...
I think that if he were to get more involved then there would be even more people getting upset by perceiving favouritism etc.
Posted by Dinah on July 29, 2005, at 22:16:07
In reply to Re:Another idea » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 29, 2005, at 21:22:18
Dunno. Countries are pretty big, but we still look to our "administrators" for leadership.
Don't think it's impossible.
Posted by gabbii on July 30, 2005, at 10:25:31
In reply to Re:Another idea » Dr. Bob, posted by JenStar on July 29, 2005, at 20:03:25
Maybe it's because the more he intervenes, or influences are reactions, the less objective his research is. I think studying how we handle conflict is probably fairly useful research material, and when the board gets heated does seem to be when he dissappears, which is why people think he's upset.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 30, 2005, at 13:35:58
In reply to Re:Another idea, posted by gabbii on July 30, 2005, at 10:25:31
> when the board gets heated does seem to be when he dissappears
I thought it was the other way around! :-)
Bob
Posted by gabbii on July 30, 2005, at 13:57:28
In reply to Re: when the board gets heated, posted by Dr. Bob on July 30, 2005, at 13:35:58
> > when the board gets heated does seem to be when he dissappears
>
> I thought it was the other way around! :-)
>
> BobGood point Dr. Bob! :)
I guess I didn't quite think that one through..
Posted by crushedout on August 2, 2005, at 13:09:56
In reply to Re: Lou's request for so's reinstatement-14th amndmnt » Lou Pilder, posted by Nikkit2 on July 22, 2005, at 10:14:43
well, just to be precise, the u.s. consitution *does* cover the internet. it just doesn't apply to nongovernmental actors, like dr. bob. if the u.s. government blocked "so," then maybe he could try his 14th amendment claim (with lou as his lawyer) but i'd venture to guess that he would lose.
Posted by crushedout on August 2, 2005, at 13:10:59
In reply to Re: Lou's request for so's reinstatement-ftrhosten, posted by partlycloudy on July 22, 2005, at 9:54:44
pc,is it true that so was blocked for a year? can you show me where this happened? i thought it was around 18 weeks or something (although I could be misremembering that figure).
co
Posted by crushedout on August 2, 2005, at 13:16:58
In reply to length of so's block » partlycloudy, posted by crushedout on August 2, 2005, at 13:10:59
I just read more of the thread and saw that you might have dreamt it. :)
Posted by crushedout on August 2, 2005, at 13:29:56
In reply to the constitution » Nikkit2, posted by crushedout on August 2, 2005, at 13:09:56
i obviously entered this conversation late in the game. if you need a lawyer, dr. bob, to represent you in the lawsuit, let me know. ;)
Posted by Nikkit2 on August 3, 2005, at 3:00:43
In reply to the constitution » Nikkit2, posted by crushedout on August 2, 2005, at 13:09:56
*in shock*
You mean, the Internet is entirely the US's domain?!
So, all of us from other countries are now covered by US law?! *L*
Somehow, it wouldn't suprise me if someone tried that!
remember, we're not all in the US, or US citizens here. *I* am not covered by US law whilst here for example.
Nikki
Posted by crushedout on August 3, 2005, at 9:55:43
In reply to Re: the constitution » crushedout, posted by Nikkit2 on August 3, 2005, at 3:00:43
nope, i didn't even *suggest* that the internet was entirely the u.s.'s domain, nikki. it was in the context of a conversation about the 14th amendment to the *u.s.* constitution, and i was just pointing out that the u.s. consitution *does* apply to the internet. i assume other countries laws also apply, but that wasn't the topic of conversation.
i'm perfectly aware that we're not all from the u.s.
Posted by Nikkit2 on August 3, 2005, at 10:43:54
In reply to Re: the constitution » crushedout, posted by Nikkit2 on August 3, 2005, at 3:00:43
Sorry, the sarcasm in my post doesn't come through..
I did look into this some what when someone here threatened to sue me for defamation.. as someone who really enjoys travelling in the US, it really quite concerned me that I would be prevented from doing so..
The whole area around law and the internet is quite grey.. you can basically say / post anything, but you cannot store certain things on your computer, or download / upload certain things from a computer..
Thats it very basically, but hopefully understandable..
Nikki
Posted by crushedout on August 3, 2005, at 10:49:10
In reply to Re: the constitution » Nikkit2, posted by Nikkit2 on August 3, 2005, at 10:43:54
well, to be honest, my point was rather pedantic and not very interesting, but all i was saying was that the constitution technically applies. for example, the first amendment (free speech) (which protects you from a defamation suit by the way) absolutely applies to the internet. that issue isn't the slightest bit gray. now, whether or not you have a 14th amendment claim based on equal protection because someone blocks you for whatever whatever, that's another story.as i said, i was making a small and pedantic point. one really good thing about american law, though, is that the first amendment law is very good with respect to defamation. not so with british law, which is apparently terrible on this.
Posted by crushedout on August 3, 2005, at 11:00:02
In reply to Re: the constitution » Nikkit2, posted by crushedout on August 3, 2005, at 10:49:10
I should clarify: U.S. first amendment law doesn't make one completely immune to a defamation suit, but it does make it rather hard for a defamation suit to be successful.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 3, 2005, at 12:38:01
In reply to Re: the constitution » Nikkit2, posted by Nikkit2 on August 3, 2005, at 10:43:54
Friends,
I am requesting that you consider the following if you are going to respond to this thread.
It is written in this thread,[...someone here threatened to sue me for defamation...].
I am requesting that you ask yourself the following if you are going to post to this thread:
A. Is there a post that you know of where another poster here threatens with a suit for defamation? If so, could you post the URL to such a post?
B. If you can not find such a post, could you request from the poster that writes the statement in question for the URL to be posted here?
C. Untill there is a URL of a post that is about the statement in question, could you post to this thread in accordance with that?
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on August 3, 2005, at 13:58:16
In reply to clarification, posted by crushedout on August 3, 2005, at 11:00:02
I did actually *pay* for legal advice.. from a US lawyer based in Washington DC (I have a friend there who set it up for me)..
the way he basically explained it to me, was that you simply cannot have legal action taken against you for posting something on the internet.
So, to take an extreme example, they couldn't take legal action for you posting an innapprpriate picture of a child on the internet. But, they could take legal action for you having it on your computer or using software to illegaly distribute it.
Is that making sense?
Nikki x
Posted by NikkiT2 on August 3, 2005, at 13:59:46
In reply to Lou's response to aspects of this thread-shothepo?, posted by Lou Pilder on August 3, 2005, at 12:38:01
Lou,
Where did I say in my post that it was in a post here? I only said it was *from* someone here.
Nikki
Posted by crushedout on August 3, 2005, at 14:07:08
In reply to Re: clarification » crushedout, posted by NikkiT2 on August 3, 2005, at 13:58:16
I don't know whether you could be sued for posting something on the internet. Child pornography is a very different case from defamation since it is a criminal issue, whereas defamation is civil (in the U.S., anyway). And I would be very surprised if it were true that you couldn't be prosecuted for posting child porn. But I honestly don't know for sure.In the defamation context, I imagine it would be the administrator rather than the poster (since the administrator is technically the "publisher" of what the poster posts) who could be held liable. But it could also be the poster. I would have to do research to be sure. And legal research is often not conclusive. (Now, the question as to whether it's the poster or the administrator who is held liable *if* defamation is proven is an entirely separate issue from how hard it would be to prove the defamation. And the publisher has a fair bit of leeway to publish negative things about the plaintiff under first amendment. Truth, for example, is an absolute defense. Opinions are also protected. And I believe the plaintiff has to actually prove harm to his reputation, but I'm not sure about that. These are just a few of the obstacles making a defamation suit hard to win under U.S. law.)
My very limited point was that the constitution *applies* to the internet. Just as it applies to everything else. *How* it is applied is completely different question.
Posted by NikkiT2 on August 3, 2005, at 14:26:15
In reply to Re: clarification » NikkiT2, posted by crushedout on August 3, 2005, at 14:07:08
So, would it apply to sites not hosted in the US?
Or not apply to anyone not living in the US?
And thanks for keeping up the dialogue, its always great to learn *g*
Nikki x
Posted by crushedout on August 3, 2005, at 14:33:06
In reply to Re: clarification » crushedout, posted by NikkiT2 on August 3, 2005, at 14:26:15
Do you mean the First Amendment? Would it apply to sites not hosted in the U.S.?It's a good question -- I'm not sure. I think it would apply to any lawsuit that was brought in a U.S. court, certainly. U.S. courts generally apply U.S. law. It's possible, though, that the court would throw the case out for lack of jurisdiction if the host was not in the U.S., in which case it would never reach the question of whether the First Amendment applies to the host.
As to whether the poster is outside of the jurisdiction, that I don't think would matter. The poster could still be tried under U.S. law (assuming the poster published something in a U.S. publication, whether it be online or on paper). The issue then is whether the court can get *personal* jurisdiction over the poster. That may require the poster to come onto U.S. territory. Or sometimes trials have been held in absentia, but I think that's very rare and maybe only for criminal cases.
We're getting into pretty hairy procedural issues here, that are difficult to explain and probably a bit out of my area of expertise. I'm happy to share my thoughts but please don't sue me for malpractice!
Oh, man, what have I gotten myself into? ;-)
Posted by NikkiT2 on August 3, 2005, at 14:43:57
In reply to Re: clarification » NikkiT2, posted by crushedout on August 3, 2005, at 14:33:06
(I'd just like to point out that I am seriously finding this really interesting.. I've been using the internet for a long time, and its such a part of my life that learning this kind of thing fascinates me!)
(and I promise, no law suits *L*)
I wonder how other countries deal with this..
I get that a site hosted in, say the UK, could be subject to UK law.. but its an interesting concept that it could also be subject to US law, and Canadian law etc.. If the site has a considerable impact in x country, could that country take action against the site?
And what if I defamed a UK company, but on a US site?
*laughing*
hey, it could be worse, just wait till you get me onto the subject of infinity..
*LOL*
Nikki x
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 3, 2005, at 14:46:01
In reply to Lou's request for so's reinstatement-14th amndmnt, posted by Lou Pilder on July 22, 2005, at 7:53:07
Friends,
It is written here,[...Where did I say in my post that it was in a post here?...]
I am requesting that you consider the following if you are going to respond to this aspect of this thread.
If you think that the statement in question above has the potential of meaning that I wrote that there is a URL here for a post that writes that the poster in some way writes [...a threat to sue for defamation...],then the following is what I wrote.
A.[...is there a post...?]
This question from me is asking if there is post because I do not know if the poster was referring to a post from someone here that [...threatened to sue for defamation...] and that is why I asked for those that are consideing responding to this thread to take that into consideration in their response.
B. [...if you can not find such a post...] I requested for one to see before they responded to this thread if there was a post,[...threatened to sue for defamation...]so that it could be determined if there was a post or not.
I also requested for others to request from the poster of the statement in question to post a URL and if there was not a URL, then to consider that in accordance with responding to this thread.
Now the poster that wrote,[...someone here threatened to sue me for defamation...] has clarified that the poster was from here.
I am requesting that if you are going to respond to this thread that you ask yourself:
A. How did the poster from here deliver the message to the recipiant of,[...threatened to sue for defamtion...]? If it was not by posting here the threat, then could it have been delivered by any of the following?
A. A letter
B. an email?
C. babblemail?
D. a phone call?
E. a fax?
F a post on another site?
G.none of the above
H. all of the above
K. a combination of the abovee
L. something else
I am requesting that you consider the following if you are going to post to this thread.
A. does the way in which the recipiant recieved the threat to sue, since the poster has been identified as a poster from here that made the threat, make a difference?
B. If so, could you request for the recipiant of the threat to identify the poster that was from here that made the threat?
Lou
Posted by crushedout on August 3, 2005, at 14:56:47
In reply to Re: clarification » crushedout, posted by NikkiT2 on August 3, 2005, at 14:43:57
i'm glad you're finding it interesting. I am, too, surprisingly.I do think that it's possible for anything on the internet to be the subject of a lawsuit under virtually any country's laws, because the internet is everywhere. The problem is often one of jurisdiction. So, for example, now that there's internet gambling, and gambling is illegal in most u.s. states, sites that offer gambling to people in the U.S. are violating U.S. law. However, because these sites are operating in Gibraltar or Bermuda or wherever, the U.S. government can't actually prosecute them because it doesn't have jurisdiction.
My point is just that you can violate U.S. law and U.S. law can technically apply to you, but the U.S. just may not be able to come after you for it because of international law that doesn't allow it to go to certain places like Gibraltar and throw people in jail. There are all kinds of exceptions to this though. And I think if an online gambling site operates in London, for example, the U.S. could come after them. But not Gibraltar. I honestly am not sure why. Some quirk of international law?
So if you defame someone in London on a U.S. site, can that person sue you in a U.S. court? Maybe. Can they force you to show up? Probably not. If you don't show up and you lose through a default judgement, will you owe them money? Yes. Can they make you pay it? I imagine it would be hard since O.J. Simpson didn't have to pay his California wrongful death judgement just by moving to Florida (where they have some jurisdictional loophole.)
As for your other question ... good god, i have no idea what your other question was. will somebody please make me shut up?
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