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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 126 to 150 of 163. Go back in thread:
Posted by Deneb on July 23, 2005, at 18:17:57
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by Deneb on July 23, 2005, at 18:13:42
Posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 18:19:21
In reply to Re: gender differences » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 17:48:24
> No I don't nearly get as much as Dr. Bob because the roles are different. I reminded him of that above.
Yes.
> The difference would be in comparing Mark and I, not Dr. Bob and I.Yes, that seems fair. Though I think you post more actively than Mark.
>But the deputy role is so limited, that I don't think there's a chance to study it that well.
Yeah. Thats why I was interested in whether there might be a board out there moderated by a female...
> I'm not sure I agree though, that humans aren't pack animals like dogs. I certainly have seen the same behaviors. Dogs are just less subtle about it.Well, we are social animals like dogs are, yeah. But there are all sorts of other dissimilarities (pair bonds, care of infants etc) and a big enough difference in degree can amount to a difference in kind...
There are hierarchies sometimes. When the accountants required departments to rank peoples positions in order of importance, for example ;-)
>I'm quite certain that he has at least occasionally experienced the behavior commonly known as p*ssing contests with other males. And he is likely aware of the feelings associated with that behavior.Maybe its a little like the role triangle thingimie that we were talking about over on social. (I haven't checked the thread yet..) But there you have roles that it is only so easy to get caught up in. So when you start to get those feelings then that probably indicates that it is only too easy to slip into playing out one of those roles. Whether the situation arises due to transference or countertransference first. Well.. Who knows?
>He's probably also aware of protective feelings towards females and what that feels like. There is a difference in the internet, in that the attractiveness of the female isn't readily apparent. Only he can be aware of any feelings he has.
Yeah. But then he doesn't have to worry about getting thumped by someone either. And idealisation can result in conflict too when the person doesn't live up to the ideal and gets really mad...
> As far as not recognizing feminine aggression. Hmmm.... I'm not sure whether he does or not. But also, it may not fall within the civility guidelines as well, because it is usually not overtly uncivil. So even if he recognizes it, he may not act on it.So females might be better at expressing uncivil thoughts in a way that doesn't really breech the civility guidelines?
I think I've seen females lash out about as much as males (though maybe I'm wrong there). I just thought it might have more to do with feeling like one has been let down rather than feeling like one has to prove something...
But I think I'm just making this up as I go along...
I don't know how you would check.
Compare lots of case studies???
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 18:29:56
In reply to Re: gender differences » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 18:19:21
> And idealisation can result in conflict too when the person doesn't live up to the ideal and gets really mad...
>
> I just thought it might have more to do with feeling like one has been let down rather than feeling like one has to prove something...Got anyone in particular in mind? :)
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 18:36:58
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by Deneb on July 23, 2005, at 18:13:42
Quite likely there are none at all.
It's dangerous to read first year psychology books. :)
I've been part of other forums moderated by women, but with only or mostly women posters. I think they wouldn't be comparable, even if you assumed there just might possibly be gender differences.
Posted by gabbii on July 23, 2005, at 18:51:58
In reply to Re: gender differences » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 17:48:24
I've always thought humans were pack animals, sometimes less subtle than dogs, less rigid, but sometimes more obvious. I guess I'm not listening well enough because I thought just about everyone felt that way.
strange fruit
Posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 19:35:18
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 18:29:56
> Got anyone in particular in mind? :)i thought that might be one of the main reasons behind females feeling pissed off at bob.
thats what we were talking about... gender differences.i have been thinking about whether i idealise him because i try not to. maybe its a process thing that you kind of do and become aware of sometimes and it really isn't an issue at other times. like how insight isn't all or none there or not there rather there are little insights along the way. maybe idealisation is a little like that too. i guess i do it sometimes though i try not to...
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 19:46:55
In reply to Re: gender differences » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 19:35:18
Is it possible to partially idealize someone? Idealize aspects, perhaps, but not the whole person? I'm not sure that's a gender difference though. I see a lot of men where idealization may be at play.
I was really interested in the top down gender perspective. Whether Dr. Bob saw himself as an alpha male. Whether he thought the role of alpha male may play a part in his perception of interactions with members. I suppose that's impossible to conceptualize without also viewing the bottom up feelings of members that might influence his responses.
Perhaps I feel more comfortable questioning Dr. Bob's responses, because of civility considerations.
But I'm trying to be PC, which means denying the existence of gender differences, much less alpha males. :)
(P.S. I did examine my own self for signs of alpha b*tch. My dogs certainly don't think of me as having any such signs. And I always think of myself more as a submissive spaniel than a dominant guard dog. I see signs of that in my posting style, which tends to contain a lot of qualifiers and apologies. But I'm not sure how accurately I can assess myself.)
Posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 20:16:44
In reply to Re: gender differences » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 19:46:55
> Is it possible to partially idealize someone? Idealize aspects, perhaps, but not the whole person?
I don't see why not. I used to think idealisation was fairly much how one saw / ones attitude towards that whole person - probably because thats how I saw the concepts presented. But now I think that that is probably a bit crude. I don't see why you can't have a fairly realistic assessment / expectations most of the time - but still idealise some aspects some of the time. Especially when one is feeling fragile.
>I'm not sure that's a gender difference though. I see a lot of men where idealization may be at play.
Yeah. I don't know whether it is a gender difference. I was thinking that maybe females were more prone to it than males - but maybe thats just wrong.
> I was really interested in the top down gender perspective. Whether Dr. Bob saw himself as an alpha male.What do you mean by 'alpha male'? What sorts of thoughts, perceptions, behaviours would you expect from someone who thought they were 'alpha male'?
>Whether he thought the role of alpha male may play a part in his perception of interactions with members.
Do you mean whether he felt like he had to defend himself against posters he perceives as threatening his authority?
>I suppose that's impossible to conceptualize without also viewing the bottom up feelings of members that might influence his responses.
Thats what I meant when I said that even if he did become aware of feeling the urge to defend himself or partake in a 'pissing contest' it is hard to know whether that occurs to him BEFORE or AFTER someone has said something to indicate that that is what they are wishing to do... Which comes first, the transference or the counter-transference, the chicken or the egg??
> Perhaps I feel more comfortable questioning Dr. Bob's responses, because of civility considerations.Yep.
> But I'm trying to be PC, which means denying the existence of gender differences, much less alpha males. :)There are gender differences, that is a fact. Its just the reasons for the gender differences (nature nurture) and the interpretation of the significance of those differences that can be a little unPC.
But it is hard to talk of 'gender differences' without making generalisations... And there are always going to be exceptions. But one can talk about 'tendancies'...
I'm not sure about whether there are characteristic gender differences that are apparant on the boards. I dunno.
> (P.S. I did examine my own self for signs of alpha b*tch.What are some 'alpha bitch' thoughts, perceptions, behaviours?
>My dogs certainly don't think of me as having any such signs.
?? But they don't challenge your authority do they? E.g., growling, being possessive with food, not wanting to lie down in front of you, trying to stand over you. If they thought there was a chance of beating you then the strongest would attempt to challenge...
>And I always think of myself more as a submissive spaniel than a dominant guard dog. I see signs of that in my posting style, which tends to contain a lot of qualifiers and apologies. But I'm not sure how accurately I can assess myself.)
I'm not sure...
Dogs can be quite different to people...
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 20:32:47
In reply to Re: gender differences » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 20:16:44
Actually, my few dominant dogs did challenge my authority that directly. And didn't lose. And my lack of dominance has caused me some significant difficulties at work.
I'm not sure I feel quite so comfortable discussing Dr. Bob's character that I can be totally frank about the alpha male characteristics. :)
I tried a few times, but it just seemed a bit intrusive.
Posted by Deneb on July 23, 2005, at 20:48:25
In reply to Re: gender differences » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 19:46:55
I don't idealize Dr. Bob at all...I wonder what that says about me?
I mostly think of him as my equal, but with lots more knowledge. Sometimes I think he *IS* me...which I think is the ultimate in projection! LOL
Deneb
Posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 20:52:51
In reply to Re: gender differences » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 20:32:47
I'm getting a bit lost with the dog thing... Is alpha male supposed to be similar to alpha bitch? If so then do you want to talk about alpha bitch characteristics a little more then???
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 20:55:36
In reply to Re: gender differences » Dinah, posted by gabbii on July 23, 2005, at 18:51:58
:-)
I tend to try to think of dogs as people, so I'm never quite sure if my observations are unbiased.
But I always found it entertaining to watch human interaction and see similarities to my dogs, and vice versa.
Except that as a group, I tend to like dogs better.
(blush)
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 20:58:12
In reply to Re: gender differences » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 20:52:51
Because you have that deadline.
But I'll try to think of the differences I've observed between alpha males and alpha b*tches for after Friday.
Although I admittedly have more familiarity with one than the other, but more amused observations about the other.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 21:17:44
In reply to I'm supposed to ignore you :) » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 20:58:12
I haven't quite managed to pull myself away.
Friday.
Or probably Saturday to tell you the truth.
I think that means Friday for you.
Going now...
;-)
Posted by gabbii on July 24, 2005, at 15:19:04
In reply to Re: gender differences » gabbii, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 20:55:36
> > Except that as a group, I tend to like dogs better.
>
> (blush)Me too but I'm not blushing. And Now I really really wish my screen name was Alpha B*tch,
though in truth I'm probably more like that funny dog that compulsively puts objects in circles on the floor.
I mean to ask you more about that actually (the dog)
But I know Admin is not the place, and for some reason I'm being polite about it.
Posted by henrietta on July 24, 2005, at 15:58:06
In reply to Re: gender differences » Dinah, posted by gabbii on July 24, 2005, at 15:19:04
This whole conversation is wildly amusing to me. Take a look at this week's cover. This week's Dr. Bob Magazine. And you wonder if there's an alpha dog thing going on? You wonder why there are so few men here? You wonder why one casual word, once every two or three months, will melt the heart of most "independent, strong-minded" girlies? The most obstreperous girlies? ? G%%d it's funny.
Or would be if it weren't so f^^^ng sad.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2005, at 17:23:30
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by henrietta on July 24, 2005, at 15:58:06
> You wonder why one casual word, once every two or three months, will melt the heart of most "independent, strong-minded" girlies? The most obstreperous girlies? ? G%%d it's funny.
> Or would be if it weren't so f^^^ng sad.Please don't be sarcastic or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. I've asked you to be civil before, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Whether this reflects gender effects I guess could be a question...
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2005, at 17:31:13
In reply to Re: gender differences » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 17:09:34
> Thats why I wondered if any female clinicians had boards.
Kali Munro does, should I ask her to visit again? Would there be other questions for her?
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on July 24, 2005, at 17:51:31
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2005, at 17:31:13
> > Thats why I wondered if any female clinicians had boards.
> Kali Munro does, should I ask her to visit again? Would there be other questions for her?Do you have a link to her board?
That could be interesting...
Posted by alexandra_k on July 24, 2005, at 18:02:30
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by henrietta on July 24, 2005, at 15:58:06
Hello Hen. Hmm. Hmmmmmmmm. I'll admit that I had similar thoughts shortly after I joined up to Babble. I think it was because I started spending a bit of time on the admin board. Actually... I'll admit that I left Babble and went back to a consumer run board and that fairly much was my initial assessment of Babble. Then that board folded and I came crawling back... I decided to avoid admin and just try and post and try and see whether I could get to know the posters here.
Because I felt like there were clicky little groups on Babble too. That you had to be part of one of those before you could really get a thread up off the ground. After some time... Jai reached out to me and I made my first Babble friend :-) Then others... Then conflict arises... And one finds ones way back to admin.
I don't know what to say really... Except that once one does start to feel accepted by the posters. To care about them. Then once conflict arises it can be hard. I really appreciate that here we can talk about it. I'd rather talk about it in the open than have to talk about it 'behind the scenes'. I don't know what to say. Maybe your assessment of posters would be different if you Babbled more to your friends :-)
Or maybe thats my sneaky way of encouraging you to come Babble with me over on social...
;-)
I'm not sure how many more females than males there are here... Maybe males tend to hang out on the main Babble board. Maybe males tend to post more to give / receive info. Maybe females tend to be more visible with lots of social chat. It has come up before about why there aren't more guys posting to the psychology board. A couple of guys jumped on the thread and I think they said it was because they have different issues in therapy. We talk a lot about transference etc etc. The guys seemed to be more in CBT and not have such strong transference responses. maybe females (typically) need a bit more of an emotional connection than males. Maybe that is why there are more females here. I don't know. Interesting...
Posted by Deneb on July 24, 2005, at 21:22:16
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2005, at 17:23:30
you automatically assume that "So" is a man.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050716/msgs/532920.html
Just something I noticed. :-)
Deneb
Posted by Tamar on July 25, 2005, at 18:05:21
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 18:09:14
About gender differences…
I’ve read a bit of evolutionary psychology, and it can be quite fun. But I’d like to suggest another possibility: I’m quite interested in the work of Judith Butler… (e.g. "Gender Trouble" which might be hard reading, but IMHO ultimately worthwhile).
It seems to me that evolutionary psychology seems to assume that gender is essential, whereas Butler argues that gender is performative. I think the distinction is crucial, especially in an online forum, because here we are all performing our identities to some extent.
So I tend to think that none of us actually ARE male or female, but we might behave in ways that are intended to suggest masculinity of femininity. (I’m oversimplifying wildly, I admit.)
But as to how the theory applies to admin here… I suspect that a performative account of gender (rather than an essentialist account) might be more useful in exploring how gender norms are policed and indeed transgressed at Babble.
Just my two cents...
Tamar
Posted by alexandra_k on July 25, 2005, at 18:11:20
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by Tamar on July 25, 2005, at 18:05:21
Does she have a couple boards or just the one?
The board I found is female only so that won't help particularly with respect to whether guys behave differently with a female moderator.
I think So has said something before about being a guy...
Posted by Tamar on July 25, 2005, at 19:39:35
In reply to Re: the link I found..., posted by alexandra_k on July 25, 2005, at 18:11:20
Hi Alex,
> Does she have a couple boards or just the one?
I'm not sure about boards. I only know about her books.
> The board I found is female only so that won't help particularly with respect to whether guys behave differently with a female moderator.
Indeed. And what about people in drag, lesbians etc... (to extrapolate from the theoretical perspective)?
> I think So has said something before about being a guy...
I had the impression So was male, but then I vaguely recall you said that people sometimes think you're male because of your writing style. Also, I seem to recall that So thought you were male at one point. Maybe that's connected to the (possible) performative nature of gender?
Tamar
Posted by alexandra_k on July 25, 2005, at 22:12:48
In reply to Re: the link I found... » alexandra_k, posted by Tamar on July 25, 2005, at 19:39:35
> I vaguely recall you said that people sometimes think you're male because of your writing style. Also, I seem to recall that So thought you were male at one point.
Yes. I think that is partly why I chose what I thought was a female sounding posting name. But I think people still get a bit confused between 'alexander' and 'alexandra'.
>I’ve read a bit of evolutionary psychology, and it can be quite fun.
Yes :-)
>It seems to me that evolutionary psychology seems to assume that gender is essential, whereas Butler argues that gender is performative.
Some people distinguish between gender (which is basically what sex you are) and gender identity which can go either way... Gender is supposed to be determined by what sex you are (so it is 'essential' if you like) whereas gender identity is what you see yourself as being (so more to do with the way you behave).
The term 'performative' is interesting to me. There are a class of speech acts that are known as 'performatives'. Promises are considered to be performatives because to succesfully make a promise just is to perform the speech act of promising to do something.
So I guess the notion of 'performative gender' is that our gender identity is in part (or maybe even fully??) determined by the gender roles / characteristics that we exemplify in our behaviours.
>But as to how the theory applies to admin here… I suspect that a performative account of gender (rather than an essentialist account) might be more useful in exploring how gender norms are policed and indeed transgressed at Babble.
Do you mean with respect to people displaying typically masculine or feminine behaviours?
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