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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 190 to 214 of 255. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 0:55:44
In reply to Re: not that strong » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 8, 2005, at 0:06:06
> Again, I think it's concretizing the impossible.
> Perhaps one day I'll think enough of self ordained "thinkers" (not you) to hazard an answer.ok. i didn't really want to argue about that. i was just trying to convey how the process goes of setting an argument up into standard form and evaluating it with respect to validity and then the truth of the premises. just to convey the general spirit of the story. the trouble comes with translating what people say into standard form (the process of translation). and of course this process only applies to arguments. not to expressions of experience or reports of ideas or anything else aside from arguments. on all the other things we do with language it is silent.
im not sure what you mean by 'concretizing the impossible'. do you mean that deriving the standard form from what people actually say is impossible??? (i would say that maybe one needs to check ones interpretation back with the person before going on to evaluate it). or do you mean that we will never be in a position to know whether the premises are true? we could take P1 and use it as a conclusion and construct an argument for P1. premises in one context can be conclusions in another and conclusions in one context can be premises in another..
The real interest in arguments (for me) is that if someone does accept the premises as true and the argument form is valid then they are contradicting themselves in denying the conclusion. So often we don't need to worry about whether the premises actually are true, we just need to worry about whether our audience will accept them as true. nobody has a perfectly consistent belief network. everybody endorses contradictory beliefs. and a contradiction describes the world in a way that it is impossible for the world to be. contradictions are necessarily false. i just find this interesting i suppose.
but i should remember.. that other people do not
> Oh, I did not mean "What reason is there for it"
> Not at all, reasons are so very personal.
> I meant the application to the world,oh. well... contradictions describe the world in a way that it is impossible for the world to be. its application... imo... it attempts to describe the structure / nature of rational thought. we have an intuitive understanding of what follows from what and what count as good reasons and not so good reasons relevant reasons and not so relevant reasons. it systematises that. it subsumes the indefinately many different arguments we could have into finitely many different kinds of argument. it describes general rules or laws that apply to rational thought processes or the laws of what follows from what.
it teaches us something of the limits of human thinking. for us contradictions and dissonance is aversive. but surely it is possible that there could be beings for whom dissonance is a delight (wittgenstein said that). for us as human beings logic constrains our thoughts and theories and contradictions are fatal. but logic is something that thought and propositions (sentances) has. logic is a fact about us as human beings about the nature of human rationality. there could be beings with different logics. they would have a very different conception of the world indeed.
so how much of the world can we know or comprehend when all of it is filtered via thought and language. we can't conceive of a contradtory state of affairs.
is that a limit of us
of our kinds of minds
or is it reflective of the structure of the world
do we see the world in that way because the world is that way
or is our thought constrained like that from without
becaue those constraints apply to reality
im not making much sense now
(not even to me)
but the relationship between logic and the world is puzzling indeed...
as is the relationship between thought and language
and thought and the world
and language and the world...>and only because you had mentioned that it alienates you from people and you seemed uncomfortable with that, but I could well be wrong.
yeah.
i need to get better there...
im never going to stop thinking this stuff
but i guess you are right that there are more or less appropriate places and ways with respect to expressing it>And I do find it odd when people (not you) can debate for hours how best to help people, when they could actually be helping people.
Ah.
But how can you help people before you know what you have to do to help them?
Or what counts as helping?
etc etc
i do get your point
i think the idea is...
that i have limitations
i might be helping in an indirect way
but that is where my skill / ability lies
other people are more practically minded
their strength lies there
but not me
though i should improve there too hopefully> > others say we need to improve logic so it more acurately reflects english
> And this is that type of philisophical quandry
> that I become irrationally irritated by.Ah. thats about where my eyes light up.
> I think of the old boys network having a meeting, drinking coffee, discussing how the world should be, becuase of course they already know just *how* it is..
ah.
hmm.
it can be a little like that...
but with respect to reforming language...
if we reform english to bring it into line with logic then that might f*ck up english's ability to do all those other things we use language to do. it might not be so good for expressing our thoughts or telling jokes. :-(
progress is being made...
do you feel the same way about physicists?
what if they said that people should stop saying 'the sun rises and sets' because they are wrong - i mean the earth goes round the sun it isn't that the sun goes up and down. the physicists get to tell us about the world. they study it. that is what they do. they are authorative in a certain way. which is not to say that they couldn't be mistaken and it is pointless to question them. but they are more likely to have it right than the people who don't really think about such things.and similarly... why can't the logicians be considered authoratitive (to a point) with respect to the structure of thought and the laws of what follows from what? which isn't to say that we can't question them. just that they are more likely to be right becaue they think about it really hard and systematically whereas the average person doesn't give a sh*t.
i care about this stuff.
i know some people don't.
but i do care.
and in studying what you are doing is reading what other people have to say.
other people who cared enough about it to write a book on what they thought about the issue.
and there are many books
and the idea is to take what you perceive to be the good stuff out of everything you have read
and leave behind what you consider sh*t
and construct the best story you can
and progress is made
though it would be fair to say that some issues have been around for centuries...
> Now that, was me. That was not intended to offend, or sneakily insult.. that's just my vision when I hear statements like that.i know. and thats ok.
> > emotions
> > how to fit them in to the picture
> > logic is about the structure of thought
> > emotions might have more to do with desires or goals
> > more to do with reasons for action
> > what motivates us to move
> > i don't know...
>
> Too bad you have to kill a butterfly to get it to lie still under a microscope.hmm.
do you mean that there is a mystery about life that you like
and that you are afraid that if everything can be explained
then that sense of mystery
of wonder
will dissapate
and so that is a very bad thing indeed???
is that it?
if so
then you are not alone.
other people have said this too.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 1:09:42
In reply to Re: not that strong » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 0:55:44
why dont i help people rather than theorising...
because i figure the best way i can help is by theorising.
im still working out what im going to do precisely
but i guess what i have been doing is writing theorietical stuff on mental illness.i have written papers / seminars on DID and am currently writing my thesis on delusions.
i try to come up with a theory that explains the phenomena
that explains what is going on for people who meet criteria
in a way that is non-judgemental
explanatorycompared to the old school theorists who are fond of attributing malevolent intent attention seeking manipulativeness etc
i want to come up with a theory that clincians can embrace
a theory that offers them a way of seeing
of making sense of
of understanding what is going on for their client
a way that leads to sympathy
and hope
and empathy
and doesn't blame or judge
thats an application of the principle of charity
currently im working on delusions
the DSM defines them as
'radically false beliefs about reality'
i don't think they are false
i don't think they are beliefs (so much as expression of experience)
i don't think they are about reality so much as the subjects experiencewhat that means is that delusional subjects aren't wildly irrational (as is often supposed)
to see them as wildly irrational seems to imply that it is pointless to listen to them or take them seriously because they dont make much sense.
the DSM seems to entail that we cant explain or make sense of delusional utterances as a matter of principle.IMO that isn't good enough.
we need to try harder with respect to understanding
what is required isn't 'radical translation'
(their problem isn't to do with reason)
but 'radical empathy' with respect to us being able to empathise with their anomalous experinece.i am just trying to give you the general spirit.
i can't be a clinician gabbi.
im too up and down with my own moods
i hope to help by providing a way for clinicians to view and relate to their clients
a way that is more likely to help them than judging them to be irrational and incomprehensible is likely to help them.
i cant help the clients directly
but i can write
sort of...and for me...
that is the pointand all that 'crazy' abstract stuff
gives me tools
concepts
with which to explain what im trying to say
in a language that other specialists
(philosophers unfortunatly)
can understand
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 8, 2005, at 1:23:31
In reply to Re: and what am i doing with this???, posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 1:09:42
> why dont i help people rather than theorising...
>
> because i figure the best way i can help is by theorising.
>
> im still working out what im going to do precisely
> but i guess what i have been doing is writing theorietical stuff on mental illness.
>
> i have written papers / seminars on DID and am currently writing my thesis on delusions.
>
> i try to come up with a theory that explains the phenomena
> that explains what is going on for people who meet criteria
> in a way that is non-judgemental
> explanatory
>
> compared to the old school theorists who are fond of attributing malevolent intent attention seeking manipulativeness etc
> i want to come up with a theory that clincians can embrace
> a theory that offers them a way of seeing
> of making sense of
> of understanding what is going on for their client
> a way that leads to sympathy
> and hope
> and empathy
> and doesn't blame or judge
> thats an application of the principle of charity
> currently im working on delusions
> the DSM defines them as
> 'radically false beliefs about reality'
> i don't think they are false
> i don't think they are beliefs (so much as expression of experience)
> i don't think they are about reality so much as the subjects experience
>
> what that means is that delusional subjects aren't wildly irrational (as is often supposed)
> to see them as wildly irrational seems to imply that it is pointless to listen to them or take them seriously because they dont make much sense.
> the DSM seems to entail that we cant explain or make sense of delusional utterances as a matter of principle.
>
> IMO that isn't good enough.
> we need to try harder with respect to understanding
> what is required isn't 'radical translation'
> (their problem isn't to do with reason)
> but 'radical empathy' with respect to us being able to empathise with their anomalous experinece.
>
> i am just trying to give you the general spirit.
> i can't be a clinician gabbi.
> im too up and down with my own moods
> i hope to help by providing a way for clinicians to view and relate to their clients
> a way that is more likely to help them than judging them to be irrational and incomprehensible is likely to help them.
> i cant help the clients directly
> but i can write
> sort of...
>
> and for me...
> that is the point
>
> and all that 'crazy' abstract stuff
> gives me tools
> concepts
> with which to explain what im trying to say
> in a language that other specialists
> (philosophers unfortunatly)
> can understandWhen I said *not you* I meant it.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 2:48:50
In reply to Re: and what am i doing with this??? » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 8, 2005, at 1:23:31
Posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 3:40:52
In reply to Re: sorry (nm) » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 2:48:50
Thanks guys.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 3:47:32
In reply to Re: and what am i doing with this??? » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 8, 2005, at 1:23:31
in general...
philosophers dont talk about helping people
it isnt about helping people
it is about investigating the nature of
knowledge
truth
reality
or whatever.over in the psychology dept you find people talking about helping people
mostly in clinical
teaching them stuff to help them practice
otherwise they dont really care about helping people
they are interested in finding out about the nature of
neurons
prejudice
whatever
just because they find it interesting
though practical implications are typically hauled in
when it comes to obtaining that research grantwe do that with ethics
sometimes it is considered 'selling out'
to adopt a topic
because of an associated research granti have come to the conclusion it is more about comprimise
but in general
helping people is not a consideration at all
it isn't in management
in most jobs
advertising
whatever
its not usually about helping people.i don't know
i don't know if that was even a question that you wanted answered or whatacademia is removed from the real world
it is its own world
in general people are kinder there
than the people who aren't
in my life expereince anyways
i dont know waht to say
sorry
Posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 3:52:08
In reply to Re: and what am i doing with this??? » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 8, 2005, at 1:23:31
im sorry
im pretty fragile at the moment
i should have stopped when you asked me to
im sorryi moved pretty quick from the topic to talking about arguments / philosophy in general
my thoughts on that didn't bear any direct relation to the initial topic.
in particular:
dinah,
i didn't think you were being inconsistent
i was just saying...look.
it doesnt matter
im sorry i didn't stop when you asked me to
im sorry you felt upset last night
i didn't feel very good either
i was hoping to repair that today but i think i just made it worse
Posted by Dinah on June 8, 2005, at 5:08:37
In reply to Re: gabbi - dinah, posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 3:52:08
I'm sorry if you're upset, Alexandra, or feeling fragile.
It is difficult for me to believe that you didn't intend your comments on consistence or contradictions to have anything to do with me, since they closely followed statements by you on your perception that the party and the restrictive boards were essentially the same. And were unleavened by any intervening acknowledgement of my thought processes on why they were not indeed the same, and could not be considered the same, because the locus of the inability to join was different.
However I will try for the sake of mutual good will to believe that your statements were unrelated to mine.
Posted by AuntieMel on June 8, 2005, at 8:27:30
In reply to Re: not that strong, posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 18:33:05
I love a good debate as much as the next guy. Just ask anyone here....
But - one of the first things kids learn in language arts is how to read a sentence and label it "fact" or "opinion."
Debating "facts" - or using logic to show that a set of premises naturally come to a conclusion is one thing - and one that no one should have any problem with, because the premises can be shown to be true or untrue.
Debating "opinion" however is usually an exercise in futility. Opinion doesn't involve just facts, it also involves feelings and personal experiences.
And anytime feelings are brought into an argument there is a strong chance they will get hurt.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 8, 2005, at 14:14:25
In reply to Re: debating the undebatable » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on June 8, 2005, at 8:27:30
Thanks so much. Here's a little to much info, but I'll get to the point eventually. I've become Dr. phobic, after dealing with an antibiotic resistant infection (sorry if you've heard this) seeing 5 Doctors and 3 specialists, and being told there's either nothing wrong,
(yeah nothing wrong except every once in a while the whole side of my face swells up..) or at worst, hallucinating, or self injuring for attention..or because I'm stressed. "Maybe you should try and figure out the reason for your stress that's causing you to do this, do you have any idea?"
"Yeah, well you see, I have this infection and no doctor seems to be taking me seriously.."I'm actually scared to go. Today I have a dissapointment with a new guy about something different. I've been nervous for three days, But this morning I thought..hey.. "I'm AWESOME!"
and I think I shall greet him with a smug smile on my face.You never know how much words can mean.
Thanks for the pat on the back.Sorry for hi-jacking the thread.
And now back to...
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 8, 2005, at 14:41:25
In reply to Emmy, Dinah, P.C » AuntieMel, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 8, 2005, at 14:14:25
Posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 16:22:46
In reply to Re: gabbi - dinah » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 8, 2005, at 5:08:37
> It is difficult for me to believe that you didn't intend your comments on consistence or contradictions to have anything to do with me, since they closely followed statements by you on your perception that the party and the restrictive boards were essentially the same. And were unleavened by any intervening acknowledgement of my thought processes on why they were not indeed the same, and could not be considered the same, because the locus of the inability to join was different.
YOU:
>>I don't think it's the same,
ME:
>ok.I never said you were being inconsistent Dinah.
You haven't said anything that is explicitly inconsistent that I noticed.But that is a general strategy, yes.
To explore the issue more to see whether they are truely analogous and to pinpoint the difference, or to see that there isn't a relevant difference.You think there is a relevant difference
I think that they might be fairly much the same in some relevant respects
But...
Apparantly our values are different so it is pointless to discuss it further.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 16:28:32
In reply to Re: debating the undebatable » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on June 8, 2005, at 8:27:30
> Debating "facts" - or using logic to show that a set of premises naturally come to a conclusion is one thing - and one that no one should have any problem with, because the premises can be shown to be true or untrue.
> Debating "opinion" however is usually an exercise in futility. Opinion doesn't involve just facts, it also involves feelings and personal experiences.Validity and invalidity (logical notions) don't require one to know whether the premises are in fact true or not.
To say that an argument is valid is to say that IF the premises were true THEN the conclusion would just have to be.
So if someone believes that the premises are true it doesn't matter whether they are right that they are true or whether they are wrong that they are true the point is that that person would also have to accept the conclusion as true if they accept the premises as true.
So they are led to contradiction if they want to assent to the premises and deny the conclusion. So they have to decide whether they want to change their mind and say that actually one of the premises is false, or that actually the conclusion is true after all.
It isn't about mind-objective truth
It is about consistency in ones belief network
>
Posted by henrietta on June 8, 2005, at 19:31:59
In reply to Re: Auntiemel, posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 16:28:32
I'm sorry you're feeling fragile. Maybe when you're feeling fragile this is not the best place to be.
I get everything you're saying (studied a lot of phil in college, and husband has masters in philosophy), but you're right, there's not much point in trying to continue this conversation here. In my opinion, your goals are entirely different from the goals of those you're trying to converse with, and not much good can come from that .
And I think you're awesome AND amazing! Sorry I'm not able (or, to be honest, willing) to hang out here much---but I'm supporting you in spirit.
XXO hen
Posted by henrietta on June 8, 2005, at 19:33:41
In reply to Alex, posted by henrietta on June 8, 2005, at 19:31:59
please take care of yourself!
Posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 23:04:07
In reply to Re: Alex PS, posted by henrietta on June 8, 2005, at 19:33:41
Thanks.
Yeah.
I should have just let it go.
Admin probably isn't the best place for me to be when I am feeling fragile.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 23:04:32
In reply to Re: Alex PS » henrietta, posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 23:04:07
because logic is my coping strategy
Posted by Dinah on June 9, 2005, at 0:37:09
In reply to Re: dinah, posted by alexandra_k on June 8, 2005, at 16:22:46
Quite probably true on this topic, Alexandra. But hopefully not true on all topics. At least it hasn't seemed to be in the past, and hopefully won't be in the future.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 9, 2005, at 3:33:25
In reply to Re: dinah » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 9, 2005, at 0:37:09
Sorry peoples.
I did ramble today / yesterday, didn't I...
Thought it might be time for a hug break.
(((Dinah)))
(((Gabbi)))
(((AuntieMel)))
Especially.
And (((everybody))) else too.
:-)
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 9, 2005, at 14:04:49
In reply to Re: Hug break, posted by alexandra_k on June 9, 2005, at 3:33:25
How long have you been standing here? Your arms must be tired.
((((SquishedAlex)))
I just pulled your hair too : )
Posted by alexandra_k on June 9, 2005, at 21:21:42
In reply to OH Gosh » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 9, 2005, at 14:04:49
...Though Dr Bob did choose to have the party in Chicago which excludes certain people from attending rather than, say, Auckland NZ which would have excluded certain others ;-)
Posted by alexandra_k on June 9, 2005, at 22:25:10
In reply to OH Gosh » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 9, 2005, at 14:04:49
> How long have you been standing here? Your arms must be tired.
Aw. Its ok.
Its so cold I froze solid
So it didn't take too much effort.
> ((((SquishedAlex))):-)
> I just pulled your hair too : )Careful or I'll have to smack you ;-)
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 9, 2005, at 23:27:44
In reply to Re: relevant difference, posted by alexandra_k on June 9, 2005, at 21:21:42
> ...Though Dr Bob did choose to have the party in Chicago which excludes certain people from attending rather than, say, Auckland NZ which would have excluded certain others ;-)
The inference from that I gather, is ethics of convenience "I wanted to do this, so I'm going to rationalize a way for it to be fair"
I can't imagine anyone having an opinion would feel it any more or less exclusive if Dr.Bob had held it in Japan, or if there was a conference he invitated people to that happened to be in
L.A.Life circumstances are going to prevent some from going to a party. That does not make it an exclusive event if all are invited.
I really wish the topic of the party and the exclusion could be left alone. It's clear what you are saying, that there are personal desires
affecting the consistancy of ethics. There are not.
Some see the two as being different in a way that you do not. Please try and accept this without feeling as if you need to educate the commoners. I wish the inferences would stop. I wish this topic could be let go of. Believe it or not critical thinking is not a foreign concept to us.
Posted by Dinah on June 10, 2005, at 7:53:22
In reply to Re: relevant difference » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 9, 2005, at 23:27:44
Thank you again, Gabbi. You said that better than I could.
I'm assuming that Dr. Bob let the prior comment about the average person go because he correctly believes all Babblers are extraordinary. :)
Posted by Dinah on June 10, 2005, at 8:05:22
In reply to Re: Hug break, posted by alexandra_k on June 9, 2005, at 3:33:25
Alexandra, it seems to me that you're very hurt by not being able to come to Chicago. I think a lot of people were, even though almost everyone is being very gracious about it. I really wish there was some way to include everyone physically, and if not physically, then through technology.
It does occur to me that Babble birthday parties are doing more harm than good to the board, and I even emailed Dr. Bob something along those lines.
I understand that you place less emphasis on intent than I do in this topic. (Although I hope you appreciate the importance I place on intent.)
However, I hope you don't think that Dr. Bob held it there to exclude you. Just as if he were to hold in in New Zealand, and I absolutely could not scrape up enough money to go, I wouldn't consider that his intent was to exclude those from the US. Of course, if he decides to go to that area, I hope it's to the opal mining area of Australia. That's always been on my list of dream trips.
A hug for you, Alexandra, because you seem upset, and that was never my intention.
(((((Alexandra)))))
And a hug for Gabbi and Auntie Mel as well.
((((((Gabbi))))))
(((((Auntie Mel)))))
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