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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by alexandra_k on May 30, 2005, at 22:04:25
In reply to Alexandra, I apologize, posted by Dinah on May 30, 2005, at 22:02:41
Thats ok.
I've blown up on admin before.
I understand.(((Dinah)))
You take care of yourself.
Posted by AuntieMel on May 31, 2005, at 9:57:32
In reply to Re: publicly viewable, posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2005, at 20:06:17
Just my 2c
>>>Most people who are against small boards already feel included on the main Babble boards. They are worried about feeling excluded from the small Babble boards.
I'm not "worried" about feeling excluded, as I don't want to be included in the first place. To me (remember, this is just *to me*) being excluded from a small group would be much like being excluded from a Mexican prison.
>>>>So one way to see it is to focus on those who will feel excluded if there are small boards.>>>>But another way to see it is to focus on those who do feel excluded currently on the main boards.
There is a difference here, you know. On the current boards no one is *physically* excluded.
Where, on the small boards there *would be* a physical exclusion. period.
One is fact, the other is perception.
Apples and oranges.
>>>But what about the people who don't feel included on the main Babble boards? They may feel included on the small Babble boards.>>>So by creating small boards more people may get that feeling of inclusion...
Is this true? I had a hard time at first, believe me. For a while I felt ignored. Then, by accident of timing, I was taken to be a troll. If the option of small boards had been there I might have joined one - and then I would have quit trying on the other boards.
Sure I would have felt included more at first. But in the long run it would have paled in comparison to what I have now.
So - to sum it up - I don't "resent" the idea of small boards, I wouldn't feel "excluded" or "envious" or any of those other things. I just don't like them on principle, and I don't (personally) think they would be good for babble.
Posted by Minnie-Haha on May 31, 2005, at 12:59:51
In reply to Re: my two cents » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on May 31, 2005, at 9:57:32
> > Most people who are against small boards already feel included on the main Babble boards. They are worried about feeling excluded from the small Babble boards.
>
> I'm not "worried" about feeling excluded, as I don't want to be included in the first place. To me (remember, this is just *to me*) being excluded from a small group would be much like being excluded from a Mexican prison.I think Alex made some good points in the post you're referring to. I could see how some might disagree with the assumption that most people who are against small boards are worried about feeling excluded from smaller Babble boards, but I think there's is truth behind the argument that most people who are against small boards already feel included in the existing, larger Babble boards.
I also don't know if anyone else feels this way, but I felt offended by the notion that being included in a smaller group would be like being in a "Mexican prison" (by which I guess you mean a completely distasteful place by ALL accounts, since no healthy, happy person wants to be in any prison). This is the kind of attitude I ran into when I started my Babble women’s group and it baffled me that such emotion was directed toward the idea of such a group.
> > So one way to see it is to focus on those who will feel excluded if there are small boards. But another way to see it is to focus on those who do feel excluded currently on the main boards.
>
> There is a difference here, you know. On the current boards no one is *physically* excluded.
> Where, on the small boards there *would be* a physical exclusion. period.
>
> One is fact, the other is perception.It is exactly perception, even the idea that Psycho-Babble is infinitely inclusive. It is a support and education resource for the mentally ill. You have to register to participate fully, though non-members can listen in all they want (if they have access to the Internet). And I doubt that the system Bob uses could handle it if every person on the planet tried to register, so actually there are physical limits here too.
I see the difference as how some people might feel at a large convention. Perhaps when the group/convention started out, it was much smaller. In the beginning, the group was small enough for the members to get to know each other pretty well. That doesn’t mean they all like each other, but when they communicate, they’ve got that foundation. And they get to know new members as they join in. And this might work pretty well while the group measured in the dozens. But once it hits hundreds or thousands – well, there are some people who would walk into that convention hall and turn right around and walk back out. And there would be some in that convention hall (some old-timers and some newbies too) who would eventually be overwhelmed by the size of it all too. They’d look for a smaller room to meet in. And that room would only accommodate so many people. But as some wandered out, others would be welcome to wander in. I don’t see it as uncivil that some might want to meet in a smaller group, unless they get selective about who can come in.
> > But what about the people who don't feel included on the main Babble boards? They may feel included on the small Babble boards.
>
> Is this true? I had a hard time at first, believe me. For a while I felt ignored. Then, by accident of timing, I was taken to be a troll. If the option of small boards had been there I might have joined one – and then I would have quit trying on the other boards.
>
> Sure I would have felt included more at first. But in the long run it would have paled in comparison to what I have now.Does one have to suffer being ignored and misunderstood before becoming a bona fide member of the group? And isn't it possible that after being a member of a smaller board, some might feel more courageous about posting on larger ones?
> So - to sum it up - I don't "resent" the idea of small boards, I wouldn't feel "excluded" or "envious" or any of those other things. I just don't like them on principle, and I don't (personally) think they would be good for babble.
But are they necessarily *bad* for Babble? To me, it seems trying them out would be no worse than all the discord that's surrounding the debate. People have threatened to leave and predicted that Babble will die, or never be the same, if smaller groups (change) are “allowed” to happen. But change, IMO, is inevitable, especially when a group has grown to the size of this one. (The group HAS changed.) People will continue to feel excluded and misunderstood (like you and I and many others have) regardless of the structure. The key thing is getting the rules into place to minimize that as much as possible, IMO.
Posted by AuntieMel on May 31, 2005, at 13:37:43
In reply to Re: publicly viewable, posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2005, at 20:06:17
Alex - I didn't mean to imply that I think the small boards would be equivalent to a prison. I only meant that *to me* they would be about as desirable.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that I would have any hard feelings towards - or think any less of - anyone that desires them. I was only trying to show that I wouldn't *feel* excluded.
I'm sorry it probably didn't come out right.
Posted by AuntieMel on May 31, 2005, at 13:47:26
In reply to Re: my two cents, posted by Minnie-Haha on May 31, 2005, at 12:59:51
No - sorry about that. We crossed posts, it seems.
I realized later that some people might think I was equating the two. That is not what I intended - I was must trying to come up with an example to show that I wouldn't feel excluded.
I was really talking about my personal feelings of *not* feeling excluded - because I didn't want to join anyway. I didn't mean to put down people that *would* want to join.
As near as I can tell, the issue has been decided already and there isn't any point in going further with any debate. I just was trying to have a friendly logical sparring match with Alex.
I'm sorry I offended you.
Posted by AuntieMel on May 31, 2005, at 13:59:26
In reply to Re: my two cents, posted by Minnie-Haha on May 31, 2005, at 12:59:51
"Does one have to suffer being ignored and misunderstood before becoming a bona fide member of the group?"
Hopefully not. I wasn't exactly *being* ignored when I started. It just *felt* like I was being ignored.
Why? Not the group's fault. I only tentatively posted at first - and then if someone didn't answer me I would sulk for a while and then - days later - try again. It was totally me being too sensitive. Apparently my social phobia extended to the net.
I have a lot of sympathy (empathy?) for those feeling the same way. I wish I knew how to fix it.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 31, 2005, at 14:42:46
In reply to Re: my two cents » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on May 31, 2005, at 9:57:32
Ditto for me there Auntie Mel. Honestly, call me self-centred, but not feeling included on the smaller boards never even occured to me.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 31, 2005, at 14:47:15
In reply to Re: my two cents, posted by Minnie-Haha on May 31, 2005, at 12:59:51
This is the kind of attitude I ran into when I started my Babble women’s group and it baffled me that such emotion was directed toward the idea of such a group.
> I got that Aunti Mel was not equating small boards with Mexican prisons, but using the analogy to compare her lack of desire to be included in either. However, I too, couldn't understand the emotion directed toward your invitation to the PsychoBabble sisters. I meant to mention it to you actually, I did notice.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 31, 2005, at 15:11:47
In reply to Re: my two cents » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on May 31, 2005, at 9:57:32
Hello :-)
I didn't take offense from the mexican prison idea - so don't worry about that.I quite liked Minnie's response.
You are strong.
You managed to battle on and continue to post *despite* how hard you found it to start with.But what I worry about is the people who just aren't that strong.
The people who do leave.
The people who don't even post because they are daunted by the huge number of posters here.
I think feelings of inclusion / exclusion are a matter of perception either way.
My understanding (though maybe I'm wrong...) Is that there will be as many small boards as people who want to post to them.
So... Everybody can be a member of a small board if they like...
Posted by alexandra_k on May 31, 2005, at 15:15:50
In reply to Re: my two cents, posted by Minnie-Haha on May 31, 2005, at 12:59:51
:-)
Thanks.
I thought you made some good points too.
I think that one of the reasons why people didn't like the idea of the womens group was because of where the conversation was at re small boards over here at the time.
People saw the womens group as something of a 'small board' and so you got a fair wack of that directed your way.
The main reason I had for not joining... Was that I like the civility rules here. I think they work to protect me. I wasn't too sure about how that was going to go and about how people were going to be dealt with (should problems arise) on your board.
But I'm sorry it didn't work out :-(
And I'm sorry about that other thread (again...):-)
Posted by alexandra_k on May 31, 2005, at 15:17:17
In reply to Re: my two cents » AuntieMel, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 31, 2005, at 14:42:46
Good morning Gabbi!
How are you today???
Sorry. I just dragged myself out of bed...
Must have coffee...
But wanted to say hello:-)
I wish I could think of a joke..
Posted by alexandra_k on May 31, 2005, at 15:18:36
In reply to Re: my two cents » Minnie-Haha, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 31, 2005, at 14:47:15
Oh.
I liked your explanation of the mexican prison analogy..
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 31, 2005, at 15:36:40
In reply to Re: my two cents » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on May 31, 2005, at 15:17:17
Morning Alex.
Trying to post before you have coffee is a bit of a joke isn't it? I can't even *make* my coffee before I have coffee and that's a conundrum.
Thanks
Posted by AuntieMel on May 31, 2005, at 16:00:08
In reply to Re: my two cents » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on May 31, 2005, at 15:11:47
I'm really quite weak about a lot of things. Acceptance is one of them.
The opposite of acceptance is rejection. I could keep trying because while I didn't feel noticed, I also didn't feel rejected.
To me there's a big difference.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 31, 2005, at 16:20:40
In reply to Re: my two cents » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 31, 2005, at 15:36:40
> Trying to post before you have coffee is a bit of a joke isn't it?
Yes. It sort of is... But the coffee shop is just a short hike across campus so I have given up making that first cup myself. I like to check Babble before that so I can contemplate whats happened overnight over coffee before posting properly from my office.
:-)
Oops.
Now the true nature of my addictions is out.
Don't tell anyone ok???>I can't even *make* my coffee before I have coffee and that's a conundrum.
:-)
Yeah.
Thats why I hit upon that solution..
>
Posted by alexandra_k on May 31, 2005, at 16:28:49
In reply to Re: not that strong » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on May 31, 2005, at 16:00:08
> I'm really quite weak about a lot of things.
Take a compliment AuntieMel...
;-)
You strike me as a fighter.> I could keep trying because while I didn't feel noticed, I also didn't feel rejected.
> To me there's a big difference.And that is strong in itself.
I would guess that a fair few people would feel rejected or intentionally ignored if they didn't get much in the way of a response.I have to say...
I joined up to BPD.net.nz a couple weeks before I joined up to Babble.
BPD.net was a small group. Maybe 10-12 regular posters. Maybe 20-30 sort of regular occasionals.
EVERYONE said hello to me as soon as I arrived. And asked me about myself and shared their story etc.
I posted here a bit. Got a couple of responses. But not much. After a while I got fed up. I did feel ignored. I thought there were clicky (I don't know how to spell that) little groups. I didn't feel welcome here and I didn't feel like anybody noticed or cared when I stopped posting (which I did).
Why did I come back???
BPD.net folded.
The moderator (who did an excellent job) encountered personal crisis and the whole site disappeared overnight.I figured that this one had been here for a while, and with a p-doc as a moderator it was unlikely to fold due to 'personal crisis'.
At the time I didn't know that there were any other boards out there that weren't consumer run.
So I braved things again...
But it took me a good 3 or 6 months after I started posting again to feel properly welcome and cared about here.
Posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 7:08:00
In reply to Re: my two cents » Minnie-Haha, posted by alexandra_k on May 31, 2005, at 15:15:50
I didn't see the women's group as having anything to do with small boards. As far as I could tell you invited everyone.
Different thing altogether.
Posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 7:14:43
In reply to Re: not that strong » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on May 31, 2005, at 16:28:49
> I have to say...
>
> I joined up to BPD.net.nz a couple weeks before I joined up to Babble.
>
> BPD.net was a small group. Maybe 10-12 regular posters. Maybe 20-30 sort of regular occasionals.
>
> EVERYONE said hello to me as soon as I arrived. And asked me about myself and shared their story etc.And how would you have felt if you tried to post and couldn't. And were told that group was full, but you could join this other one over here if you liked.
Instead of being warmly welcomed by all.
It baffles me that everyone doesn't get that. But I figure we just have different values and there's no point talking about it with people who have different values, because there's no common point of reference.
It's ok, I have different values on many issues with many Babblers. I just don't generally talk about those issues. Maybe that's best.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 18:43:17
In reply to Re: my two cents - Minnie Ha Ha, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 7:08:00
> I didn't see the women's group as having anything to do with small boards. As far as I could tell you invited everyone.
Women and not men.
Men weren't invited.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 18:55:16
In reply to Re: not that strong » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 7:14:43
> And how would you have felt if you tried to post and couldn't.
I couldn't join the journals board. Not for a long while. People posted over there, I couldn't read the posts. People would refer to stuff on the journals board on the regular board. I knew I was missing something. It didn't worry me to much because I chose to focus on what I did have.
> It baffles me that everyone doesn't get that. But I figure we just have different values and there's no point talking about it with people who have different values, because there's no common point of reference.
I thought the values were the same...
Everyone seems to value people feeling included.
The argument seems to be over the best way to achieve that...I thought you wanted to persuade Dr Bob to make viewing restricted to membership. I never intended to bring up all the should there even be small boards stuff.
But people wanted to bring that back up...
WHich, IMO just clouds and obscures the issue of whether people should be able to view them who can't post to them.
Maybe they could be viewable while there are places available, and when there aren't places available then they can't be publicly viewed anymore. That would make sense to me too.
I have been thinking...
A bit of a tangent now...
You were saying that at your sons school it was considered impolite to discuss an event at school where everyone was not invited.
I was wondering what you (and other people) would think about the politeness factor of discussing an event at school where everyone was invited but not everyone was able to attend.??
Posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 19:10:16
In reply to Re: not that strong » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 18:55:16
I've worried about that as well, as you'll see from my post on Social. I don't think it's the same, although I regret that not anyone could make it, or that anyone felt left out.
If people would prefer it, I'd be perfectly happy to keep what happened there private. I just wanted everyone to feel included as much as I possibly could.
Completely different motivation than discussing things that people didn't want to include others on, wouldn't you think?
The intent being to include others to the greatest extent I possibly can, instead of to exclude people.
Posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 19:13:23
In reply to Re: my two cents - Minnie Ha Ha » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 18:43:17
I didn't consider that the same thing as the small boards. More like students.
But maybe other people did.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 19:39:27
In reply to Re: not that strong » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 19:10:16
> I've worried about that as well,
Yes, I know you did.
>I don't think it's the same,
ok.
I think it was worth having the Babble party. It helped people feel included. But there is going to be a cost for people who couldn't go. Just like there is a cost for people who can't sign up to a small board...
> If people would prefer it, I'd be perfectly happy to keep what happened there private. I just wanted everyone to feel included as much as I possibly could.
:-)
I know.
It is nice hearing peoples impressions etc.
It is nice to feel included in it vicariously in that way.
Not so nice when one feels like one is missing out because they don't get a joke or comment.
And people who have met have another layer of connection now.
Things change.
Thats life I suppose...> Completely different motivation than discussing things that people didn't want to include others on, wouldn't you think?
Yes. I don't think small boards are like that either. It idea isn't to keep particular people out. Rather it is to help people feel included who are in.
> The intent being to include others to the greatest extent I possibly can, instead of to exclude people.
Absolutely.
Please don't think I question your motivation Dinah. I know you are very well intentioned and also very sensitive to other peoples feelings.But I do think... That more people will feel included if small boards are implemented.
I also think that people feeling excluded can be reduced by doing such things as making the board only viewable to members etc.
Posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 20:05:32
In reply to Re: not that strong » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 19:39:27
> And people who have met have another layer of connection now.
But Alexandra, that's what I've been trying to say. It was like meeting people we already knew. We didn't have an added layer of connection so much as we confirmed the connection we already had. I already knew Falls and GG and All Done and the rest to greater or lesser extents. Meeting them confirmed that. But I already knew them. Which means that cyberfriends can be real friends.
> Yes. I don't think small boards are like that either. It idea isn't to keep particular people out.
But that's the reality. And it's purposeful if not intentional. I can't really talk about it with you because we don't share a common background on the topic. It's like we're coming from two different cultural backgrounds trying to discuss something that is so fundamental to each of us that it doesn't even need explanation. It's impossible between nations, and I think it's probably impossible between people.
> But I do think... That more people will feel included if small boards are implemented.
A wider range of types of people, perhaps.
>
> I also think that people feeling excluded can be reduced by doing such things as making the board only viewable to members etc.
>
>
Agreed.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 20:50:33
In reply to Re: not that strong, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 20:05:32
> > And people who have met have another layer of connection now.
> It was like meeting people we already knew. We didn't have an added layer of connection so much as we confirmed the connection we already had.And that confirming of connection is just what I meant by another layer of connection.
> > Yes. I don't think small boards are like that either. It idea isn't to keep particular people out.
> But that's the reality. And it's purposeful if not intentional.And the reality of the Babble party is that some people can't go who would like to. Its the reality even if not intentional.
I don't think it is that our values are different, Dinah. I think it is that you are weighting things differently.
So...
Pro of small boards: some people will feel included who wouldn't if small boards weren't implemented.
Con of small boards: some people will feel excluded who wouldn't if small boards weren't implemented.Pro of Babble party: some people will get the extra layer of having their friendships confirmed IRL (which I think is kind of like feeling included).
Con of Babble party: some people will not get the extra layer of having their friendships confirmed IRL (which is kind of like feeling excluded).In the small board eg you think the cons are weighted more heavily than the pros.
But with respect to the Babble party you think it is weighted the other way around.Does this make sense???
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