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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 205 to 229 of 536. Go back in thread:
Posted by Gabbix2 on February 1, 2005, at 16:57:46
In reply to I guess Dr. Bob and Babble are intertwined for me » Gabbix2, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 16:36:00
> I don't disagree with what you say, Gabbi. But to me the stomach turning thing is if Dr. Bob implements it, even if Babblers are more aware of issues of politeness than he is and it never gets off the ground.
I think I understand that feeling a little bit, I remember how very hurt I was.. one time when I was blocked as I percieved unfairly, I'm still surprised really the feelings it brought out. When I came back I think I made an unconscious Bob/Babble separation but I haven't forgotten how I felt the first time I was really dissappointed by him, and still I had never given him the same loyalty and support that you had it's sad to see this happening.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on February 1, 2005, at 17:00:13
In reply to I guess Dr. Bob and Babble are intertwined for me » Gabbix2, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 16:36:00
Dinah for me the deal is we cannot REALLY talk about politics or religion we have to *side* talk them (I read all the boards and those two TO ME seem to be two we could toss out and the newbie board plus I am not sure they need be on a psych board ) 2000 is not really used....the grief and health boards move into psych and social *more often than not*. If one really looked at Babble Psychology, Admin, Babble, and social are...the most traveled and used. Look at the posters in them....move 20 % OUT AT RANDOM ...then take some posters you love to talk with out say 4 ....toss a few new ones in you may like or not...take out maybe your best babble bud and you have a gated community....sickening and not something I would expect from a psych area.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on February 1, 2005, at 17:08:20
In reply to Re: I guess Dr. Bob and Babble are intertwined for me » Dinah, posted by Gabbix2 on February 1, 2005, at 16:57:46
Oddly and maybe very mistakenly I do not equate Dr Bob with the board but as only the sometimes board keeper..Thus I do not like nor dislike him as I do not know him. He is not my friend, he is not my enemy, he is not good nor evil he just IS...He is a dude that does research with what we do on the boards and say and whatever he does....I see Babble as US the collective group of posters I have come to love and not :) I don't want any of them to be shut out of where and with whom they want to be.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 1, 2005, at 17:16:37
In reply to Re: I think I am still trying to understand... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on February 1, 2005, at 15:28:34
> > But I would say that some good could come of small boards (not that it *will* come - but that it *might possibly*) for all the reasons that Dr Bob has given.
> People already have that choice, why must it be risked under the auspices of Babble?Not people who don't know anyone in cyberspace...
Not people who don't already feel included...
> > Maybe he doesn't get how hurt people are likely to be...
> I think that's likely, I really do.Yes.
But maybe some other people don't get how some people could really benefit from feeling more included.
The 'restriction' idea isn't just for the sake of a restriction. It is a way to keep the number of posters down. That way people will notice when someone hasn't posted for a while. That way peoples threads are more likely to be responded to rather than bypassed.
> > Not even for a greater good? I would say that Dr Bob thinks more good than harm would be likely to come from this or he wouldn't want to implement the idea. Maybe he is wrong, but I have faith that he is well intentioned (as are we all...).
> That would contradict Dr. Bobs previous and stated philosophies/actions, which was to protect the most sensitive at the risk of alienating the majority, an examply being the srict offensive language rules. And again, I can't see the greater good when the opportunity to have private conversations is already freely available.
Ok. With respect to the offensive language rules how hard is it to put in the odd asterisk? Some people are offended by some language. It really isn't much cost to others to asterisk. In fact with the automated asterisking system in place we can just forget about it and swear to our little hearts content so long as the thing is left at default. I saw that as a comprimise between freedom of expression and the point that some people are offended. The automated asterisking provides the best of both worlds. The swearers don't have to change anything at all and people are no longer (as) offended.
Once again, what about the people who don't already have friends in cyberspace?
> I think it's a general feeling of exclusion, hurt that people need to seperate from the rest, it's an inference.What about people who are new to cyberspace? Who are too anxious to join a VLG to start with but may find the courage to join a VSG. Then they might venture out to the VLG once they have some confidence.
> It's very natural to have a close group of friends, but it's rude to only associate with them when you are in public.
So you think that if VSG's are implemented people won't post to the main babble boards anymore? I don't think that is likely. When a new board is added it doesn't seem to take away from the other boards, rather it gives us something new as well. I wouldn't reduce my main babble imput if I joined a VSG as well..
> I think babble should be easier on people than that babble is for people who are already working on enough things and should I believe be a place that is as comfortable as possible.
Yeah. I think that is the idea behind the VSG. To help people feel comfortable who don't feel comfortable in the VLG.
> > But is there a possible greater good?
> No, I don't think so. If there is I think it's sacrificing the type of people who are sacrificed every day every where else in the world and that repulses me on a mental health board.You can't think of any pro's for VSG's? Not even hypothetical ones? You can't see how or why someone could think that this could be a good idea?
To repeat:
> > Will some people stay on Babble who otherwise would leave?
> > Will some people feel more supported and more understood?> > Hard to weigh...
IMO. Hard to weigh.
> Ha! That's funny. I took philosophy for half a semester, it drove me bats. I figure if you can get everyone to agree on one thing (namely a philosophy) then you have no need for a philosophy.. Now when people discuss philosophy that's generally when I go play with the dog. : )
Heh heh, yeah ok. The more philosophy you do the more you see that the distinctions that they teach you early on actually collapse back in on one another. That the 'radically different' theories have so many things they agree on you wonder at the end of the day whether they are simply verbal disputes without much difference in substance. When you start to see things that way then you start to grasp something of the fact that people have been harping on about the same old stuff for centuries. Just using different words. The wisdom of the ages...
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 17:18:25
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on February 1, 2005, at 16:53:40
No, I'm sorry, I can't. It does appear that some people can, and even that astonishes me. But I can't.
And yes, I fear the idea does seem CBT'ish to me. Not that I mean to insult you or anything. :) But maybe you've absorbed more than you think. Again, I've no wish to insult you in any way. I'm sure it was totally against your will. (smile)
Posted by alexandra_k on February 1, 2005, at 17:24:19
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 17:18:25
You can't what?
Thats not CBT Dinah, thats Gestalt theory.
Seeing / seeing as
The whole is more than the sum of its parts.
The atoms are the same - but we add an interpretation. And judgement follows from the way in which we interpret. And bad feelings follow from the judgements we make.You can stop the inevitable by viewing from another point of view.
The judgement stuff was from Linehan's buddist mindfulness stuff.
If you judge something to be all good...
If you judge something to be all bad...I give up now.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on February 1, 2005, at 17:38:13
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on February 1, 2005, at 17:24:19
Maybe I am lost but I thought last night you agreed to disaree and that would then mean you agreed to "give up" yesterday...if I misunderstood you could you please clarify this for me so that I do understand what your saying? By guve up I am referring to trying *to change minds* as if you have that magic potion or fix or however Gab worded it..... I am not referring to
NOT giving up on stating your views on this subject.
>
> The judgement stuff was from Linehan's buddist mindfulness stuff.
>
> If you judge something to be all good...
> If you judge something to be all bad...
>
> I give up now.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 1, 2005, at 17:58:23
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Fallen4MyT on February 1, 2005, at 17:38:13
I just have a question or thought about how these "might" turn out. (might as in whether they come to be or not). And I don't like the idea, just for the record. I see no need as we have Open, Babblemail, emails, etc.
I am assuming that participation in them would be voluntary, right? They would not take the place of the regular boards? So we could just ignore them and go on posting as we always do? That's kind of what I assumed I would do if he implements them. I don't really expect the people I know and love would jump on over to this and quit posting on the regular boards. Although I could be wrong.
And if new people choose to do this, although I can't see how they could if they are new, cause how would they know which group they want to be in? Would they "rush" the small groups, like with the Greek system on college campuses? (only partly kidding here, unfortunately). Because the idea of randomly being assigned to a group is not appealing to me. But anyway, if this is how newbies might become Babblers, then the harm to me is that I would not get to know them if they do not post on the regular boards.
I also assume that even if the viewing of them was open to all ( and ick!), then I could ignore them, right? Kind of like how I don't look much at the Substance Abuse board now?
I don't know. Perhaps it's a muting of emotions I am experiencing right now. But I just can't make myself get upset about this beyond objecting to the principle. I just assume I'll go on as I normally do, and I suppose I am trusting that the bulk of Babblers will do the same.
Am I dreaming here? Rose-colored glasses slip down my forehead over my eyes?
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 1, 2005, at 17:59:37
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Fallen4MyT on February 1, 2005, at 17:38:13
Years and years of experience with this particular defense mechanism. (spits sand out)
If I can't see the new boards, they can't see me, aka affect me, right?
:D
gg
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 18:09:15
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on February 1, 2005, at 17:24:19
I'm not familiar with Gestalt. I suppose there is overlap between the various schools of thought. I should have known it wasn't CBT. :)
I invited Dr. Bob to put down defending both of our positions (globally of course) and talk at a deeper level. He declined my invitation.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on February 1, 2005, at 18:10:45
In reply to btw, I play ostrich really really well! » Fallen4MyT, posted by gardenergirl on February 1, 2005, at 17:59:37
Lol I don't I am more a Rosa Parks kinda gal and will leave when that time comes for the principle
> Years and years of experience with this particular defense mechanism. (spits sand out)
>
> If I can't see the new boards, they can't see me, aka affect me, right?
>
> :D
>
> gg
Posted by Gabbix2 on February 1, 2005, at 18:10:53
In reply to Re: I think I am still trying to understand... » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on February 1, 2005, at 17:16:37
I really don't want to debate this anymore, I think we're both weary of it, but the example I gave of the offensive language was simply that an example. Bob has stated clearly that he wants the most sensitive, even if they are in the minority to feel at ease and has risked the alienation/dissatisfaction of the majority in order that they feel comfortable here, there have been various issues, language being only one.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on February 1, 2005, at 18:16:06
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 18:09:15
LMAO WHY AM I NOT......AT ALL...surprised by this? I cannot say and be civil :)
signed
Your fellow lab rat
>
> I invited Dr. Bob to put down defending both of our positions (globally of course) and talk at a deeper level. He declined my invitation.
>
>
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 18:22:54
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by gardenergirl on February 1, 2005, at 17:58:23
Yes, of course people can continue to post the way they do now. And of course, Gabbi's right about having faith in posters. I ignore the boards I can't post on as it is now unless someone posts something about someone I care about on Social (as sometimes happens because a concerned poster can't post directly to 2000) and I'm moved to go see what's going on with them. Of course, I can't help any because I'm not allowed to post, but I'm still concerned enough to want to help because I care.
But that doesn't change the fact that Dr. Bob, a mental health professional and a human being I admire, doesn't "get" it. Perhaps that shouldn't bother me as much as it does. Positive transference coming to ground with a thud? Except that it's thudded so very often that it must be broken to pieces by now. And it's not something unexpected from Dr. Bob. Quite the contrary. So why does it bother me?
I think it's the impotence. I always feel so impotent around Dr. Bob. The only way to avoid that is not to care what he does. I've gotten better at that I guess. But not yet good enough.
Restricted boards? How very... interesting.
I'm practicing.
If only he'll quit enticing me to express myself when it really won't make a bit of difference. Hmmm...
Dr. Bob, please quit teasing me with ideas when I really can't get anywhere with them. It's quite frustrating.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 1, 2005, at 18:46:37
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 18:22:54
"How very....interesting" reminds me of when I say "mmmmmmmm" to something. Not hmmmm (as in, "I need to think about that"), but rather mmmmmmmmmm. Not as in yummy, either. But just a very noncommittal verbal following which has more of an implication of "I really don't agree with you, but I'm not going to say that directly" than "uh huh".
So, restricted boards? mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
gg
Posted by alexandra_k on February 1, 2005, at 19:14:50
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Fallen4MyT on February 1, 2005, at 17:38:13
I never did intend to try to *make* people change their minds on whether they wanted small boards or not.
With respect to that I am happy to agree to disagree. Though that isn't even the point *because I don't care one way or the other*.
But I was being persistent in trying to show people that there are different ways that we can view them.
But some people don't seem to be able to see them from another angle. Not even for a moment. Being able to see them from another angle doesn't oblige you to change your mind on whether you want small boards or not. It doesn't require one to give up ones basic morals. But some people are determined that *it really is a rabbit* and that is the end of the story.
If you really can't understand how to empathise with anothers point of view and reasons then there really isn't much that I can say.
I give up.
People would rather be upset about this then try to understand.Good luck to you all.
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 19:33:57
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » Fallen4MyT, posted by alexandra_k on February 1, 2005, at 19:14:50
You sound frustrated and angry, Alexandra. I'm sorry.
I feel the same way about Dr. Bob, so I empathize.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on February 1, 2005, at 19:38:16
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » Fallen4MyT, posted by alexandra_k on February 1, 2005, at 19:14:50
I personally DO understand ALL the points and read all your posts on here...they are well said HOWEVER I still do not agree....its NOT that I do NOT understand it ...it is that I do not AGREE and with that...I guess, I find what you call persistance is what feels like you are trying to change our minds.."our" being those of us who keep repeating ourselves to get across that we do not agree...**not see..but agree**....at least thats my view...Dr Bob could make a fun board called the T lovers gated community and I still would NOT join NOT because I do not SEE ALL SIDES...but because having SEEN them I still find it appauling. Frankly we have all said more about this than Bob.
> I never did intend to try to *make* people change their minds on whether they wanted small boards or not.
>
> With respect to that I am happy to agree to disagree. Though that isn't even the point *because I don't care one way or the other*.
>
> But I was being persistent in trying to show people that there are different ways that we can view them.
>
> But some people don't seem to be able to see them from another angle. Not even for a moment. Being able to see them from another angle doesn't oblige you to change your mind on whether you want small boards or not. It doesn't require one to give up ones basic morals. But some people are determined that *it really is a rabbit* and that is the end of the story.
>
> If you really can't understand how to empathise with anothers point of view and reasons then there really isn't much that I can say.
>
> I give up.
> People would rather be upset about this then try to understand.
>
> Good luck to you all.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on February 1, 2005, at 19:44:53
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » Fallen4MyT, posted by alexandra_k on February 1, 2005, at 19:14:50
Some of us have said we wish to agree to disagree with you and yet you say we **would rather be upset than try to understand*** that statement is something I find offensive as I have said a number of times we do not agree lets agree to disagree and you keep trying to change our minds ...what makes you think we do NOT understand? Because we disagree? There is no other reason it could be than that. Have you noticed we have read what you said and did not say you choose to stay this or that? That insulted me and a few others I heard from in email.
>
> I give up.
> People would rather be upset about this then try to understand.
>
> Good luck to you all.
Posted by jujube on February 1, 2005, at 19:46:49
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 18:22:54
I guess what I am having trouble with is seeing how this is going to help new board members integrate and become more active more quickly as well as seeing how it will enhance the activities of the board for all members.
First, people come to the board for very a variety of individual reasons. For some it is about joining a community where they will find support, friendship and knowledge on a longer-term basis. For others, it is only about getting answers to some questions, after which they no longer have a need for the board. There will always be a transient nature to these types of forums, and no matter how much effort is put into making the forum more appealing to newbies, some will not stay. It is not aways about feeling left out, ignored or insecure. If that were the case, then some of you participating in this thread would probably not be here to have this debate (I say that based on personal admissions in this particular thread of, at times, feeling like "thread killers", not to be disparaging in any way).
I have seen some newbies jump right in and participate in threads on a number of boards. Others take their time and may remain in their comfort zone on a particular board until, perhaps, they feel less inhibited and more confident about joining threads and broadening their horizons to other boards. What it boils down to is human nature. Some people are gregarious and will have no inhibitions about joining a conversation and voicing an opinion. Others are shy and need time to begin to know others and to become comfortable with a new environment through observation rather than participation. And, some are in between the two.
The point I am trying to make, is that it may be likely that no amount of special accommodation will make transient posters stay or facilitate more active participation by the some posters.
One thing I would like to add is that Dr. Bob may have better luck determining where improvements can be made to the forum, if needed, by surveying posters and then presenting the results of the survey for discussion. It would be one way to find out what works and what doesn't work and what keeps people here and what drives them away.
I personally think there is a wonderful dynamic here at Babble, and nothing should be done to inadvertently disrupt that dynamic.
Tamara
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 19:48:44
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » Fallen4MyT, posted by alexandra_k on February 1, 2005, at 19:14:50
I really am sorry. I tend to get involved in these tussles with Dr. Bob over things I feel passionately about and unintentionally inflict some collateral damage.
For any collateral damage I have unintentionally caused you, I apologize.
Want to come play on Social?
Posted by Gabbix2 on February 1, 2005, at 20:05:26
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » Fallen4MyT, posted by alexandra_k on February 1, 2005, at 19:14:50
>
> If you really can't understand how to empathise with anothers point of view and reasons then there really isn't much that I can say.
>
Now that offends me, it's a sweeping assumption and I cannot grasp how you drew that conclusion. I don't understand how without changing their minds entirely anyone would be able to show you any more clearly that they had considered the other viewpoints.
Each alternate view.. the picnic, the cozy room,that Bob gave was considered by just about everyone on this thread and then countered.
Did you need (I'm not being snide) someone to say "I see what you mean Dr. Bob but this is how I see it" "That's a good point, I don't hate you I know you mean well but..." Maybe I've been here so long that I just know people like Dinah, Fallen, and GardenerGirl, always consider the other persons viewpoint, Dinah especially will give Dr. Bob the benefit of the doubt. Fairness is not a quality exclusive to you, actually I think Dinah could teach the best of us about fairness, critical thinking and tact.
I'm terrifically insulted at having my own abilty to empathize doubted (one of my core values and that of the people on the board I know well) I personally couldn't care less about the boards either, my thinking about others, and the principle here is why I'm involved in this at all.
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 20:11:39
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on February 1, 2005, at 20:05:26
Dr. Bob's on board. Just not on Admin yet. And I know we would hate to have admin actions among friends.
And we are friends, right? Things blow up, but they'll get back in perspective because we all know each other well enough to know that we're all want the best.
It's easy to get frustrated and say something we might later regret. All of us, myself included.
Can we all go play on Social?
Before Dr. Bob comes and slaps hands?
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 20:16:02
In reply to Deep breaths?, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 20:11:39
Sorry. I forgot one of my technical rules. I should have made that a reply to my own post.
Gabbi, that wasn't a reply to your post. It was just a general "Cheese it. It's the cops." to all of us.
And we are all friends, and we do all know we mean well right? It just gets frustrating, that's all.
Posted by Gabbix2 on February 1, 2005, at 20:24:55
In reply to Deep breaths?, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 20:11:39
> And we are friends, right? Nope nnnnnnnnnnnnope
Yes! of course we're friends.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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