![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 163 to 187 of 536. Go back in thread:
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 18:14:24
In reply to I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 17:37:18
> As soon as you judge one board to be ‘better’ than another there are problems…
> Instead of focusing on what you have you focus on what you are missing out on.
> You feel envy because you aren’t in the ‘best’ board.
>
>
> But it doesn’t have to be that way. All you have to do is lift the judgement.That's not it for me at all, not even remotely.
Few people I could connect with would want to even be involved with a private board so it's a non-issue. Why on earth would I envy people who were involved in something I find so repugnant? I think the reasons for not liking the idea were made pretty clear by Dinah, and they didn't involve envy, it's a matter of rudeness and elitism.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 18:21:05
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 18:14:24
Would it be rude and elite for me to join a board that you don't want to?
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 18:22:06
In reply to Re: Dinah?, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 14:14:21
I will leave when I even think there are select groups. I KNOW there are some off shoots...
Way back when I was a kid...maybe age 12 we had an interracial couple move into our very white and upper middle class suberb...I spoke with them often when I went to visit friends a couple blocks away..I would wave and say hi ask them dumb kid questions...they seemed SO greatful for that. At the time I didn't see that ..I was a kid...My dad even made comments on that dirty white woman who married a .....(dad was a very nice man normally) and ALL the rest of the neighborhood did NOT speak to them..This is true...*nobody EVEN looked at them* (kind of a what you don't see deal) they would just let them know by their silence they did not belong. You know closed doors.. Not even 6 months later....I was on my way to a friends house and no curtains were in the window..they moved....paid a lot of cash to move into our area to be ignored and treated like garbage. *I* will never be a part of something so distasteful. To this day in my old neighborhood you see few to zero black people...Where I live now a small town of 8000 with OLD MONEY you see no blacks at all minus shopping...It's like we have a gated community....they FEEL they are not welcome as I am sure some in here will too....I hate that what you see won't hurt you mentality...it is insulting. I will blow outta babble when that time comes that we have to hide and not be with all ...I will survive. I guess what some posters on here do not realize about me is. I could care less if I lost Babble myself I am fighting to keep what many of you seem to care about as well as the posters who will be shut out...Yeah it's a small town clique is all. If you hide it to me, that is just worse than not ..and very hypocritical. Lets have a country club in a hills so the blacks and jewish people don't know they are excluded...ugh..sickening
> > This is just another addition to my opinion. To hide these groups from the eyes of others. Seems to me to be just a sneakier way to insult all of us more and allow us to be Country Club members with a gold key in a good club.
>
> It's true, people do have a way of finding out.
> However, I really think that the rooms just won't work. There just aren't enough babblers altogether, nevermind enough who would be interested in a private room. The social board is hardly crowded with posters, the student board eventually had to become unrestricted and
> I've seen posts on the 2000 board that have been made just to keep it from being closed. I have too much faith in Babblers to worry about having to leave over this, if it is implemented I'll just have to wait until I get over my annoyance with Dr.Bob and I've managed to do that more than a few times. : (
>
>
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 18:31:18
In reply to I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 17:37:18
This is not to anyone in particular but sometimes people act like judgement is bad. I judge freedom and choice to be something I value. I think we judge judgment....
Main Entry: judg·ment
Variant(s): or judge.ment /'j&j-m&nt/
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 a : a formal utterance of an authoritative opinion b : an opinion so pronounced
2 a : a formal decision given by a court b (1) : an obligation (as a debt) created by the decree of a court (2) : a certificate evidencing such a decree
3 a : capitalized : the final judging of mankind by God b : a divine sentence or decision; specifically : a calamity held to be sent by God
4 a : the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing b : an opinion or estimate so formed
5 a : the capacity for judging : DISCERNMENT b : the exercise of this capacity
6 : a proposition stating something believed or asserted
synonym see SENSE
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 18:34:56
In reply to I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 17:37:18
Fifty years ago Rosa Parks was arrested for refusing to give up her bus seat to a white person in Montgomery, Ala. This event led to a bus boycott that was the first mass protest of racial discrimination..sometimes you have to stand up for what you belive in at ALL cost ..This is a case where I will be like Rosa Parks and stand up for all of those who want a bus seat......
Posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 18:55:27
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 18:21:05
I don't have a problem with judgement. But when the consequence of judement leads to hurt feelings and we do not need to judge that way...
I have heard a lot about racial segregation. I think that to compare small town boards with segregation on the basis of race is on a par with comparing babble with Nazi germany. That is to say that it undermines the suffering of those affected by those situations.
Dr Bob isn't saying lets limit membership to race or colour or income or anything like that. He is saying lets limit it to a certain number of posters.
I really should just stop this.
I am not trying to change peoples minds
I am trying to understand the hurt feelings
And I am trying to find ways to show people that we really don't need to be that hurt.We can choose how to view this...
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 19:22:28
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 18:55:27
> I am trying to understand the hurt feelings
> And I am trying to find ways to show people that .
>
> We can choose how to view this...Please don't say "we" it's a complete contradiction. I don't need someone to show me how to choose. I *have* chosen how to view this, and my view is different from yours. The way that is phrased it sounds like the only way I could be choosing is if I agree to this, and that's rather ironic. My feelings are not hurt, I'm angry, and I'm disappointed.
I frequently change my mind when an argument presented seems valid to me.
I haven't seen one yet, "The words have changed but the song remains the same"No, I don't think this is as extreme as choosing people by color. However sometimes people exaggerate to make a point.
I think having private conversation which can be viewed but not participated in by the rest of babble is insensitive, I think it promotes cliquisheness and it insinuates that there is an unruly mass to get away from.>we really don't need to be that hurt
That's right, anyone who wants a private conversation can have one.. IN PRIVATE
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 19:26:37
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 18:55:27
I totally disagree with you it is a form of elitism and segregation....many agree with me...some don't. I agree to disagree with you ..I do not think we will agree, it may be because of where I live, my age and life experience you are much younger than I..that is not bad or saying you do not know much but it is ELITISM..I never said NEVER said Dr Bob is basing it on color etc PLEASE DO NOT TWIST MY WORDS...I used **examples** of ELITISM...THE ONE THING WE AGREE ON IS THE LAST PART OF YOUR POST WHERE YOU SAY...."I really should just stop this.
> I am not trying to change peoples minds
> I am trying to understand the hurt feelings
> And I am trying to find ways to show people that we really don't need to be that hurt.
>
> We can choose how to view this... "
Those are wise words ...no you will not change peoples minds I would NOT want to change yours its your mind and beliefs...I respect that..Dinah Gab and I have been around here our minds and hearts feel differently...HOWEVER I will say YOU CANNOT SHOW US ANY OF US that we do not need to be hurt WE HATE THIS IDEA...I AM BTW NOT YELLING AT YOU JUST STRESSING points I do not think you understand or will :/ We arent wanting or asking you to agree or change your mind, YOU WILL NOT SEE US CHANGE OURS. Just as I know killing someone is wrong I know this elitism is wrong> I don't have a problem with judgement. But when the consequence of judement leads to hurt feelings and we do not need to judge that way...
>
> I have heard a lot about racial segregation. I think that to compare small town boards with segregation on the basis of race is on a par with comparing babble with Nazi germany. That is to say that it undermines the suffering of those affected by those situations.
>
> Dr Bob isn't saying lets limit membership to race or colour or income or anything like that. He is saying lets limit it to a certain number of posters.
>
> I really should just stop this.
> I am not trying to change peoples minds
> I am trying to understand the hurt feelings
> And I am trying to find ways to show people that we really don't need to be that hurt.
>
> We can choose how to view this...
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 19:33:03
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 18:55:27
> And I am trying to find ways to show people that we really don't need to be that hurt.
>
Alexandra I really don't think that's up to you.
Do you really? It just doesn't sound like you to me.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 19:34:13
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 19:22:28
Thank you Gab for this post it's well said and conveys how I feel exactly I have tried to express as best as I can in a civil that WE feel how WE feel and we arn't inclusive or some posters..I have tried hyperbole...I never asked for someone to agree. I will NOT insult someone else opinion or intellegence by trying to change it ..well minus Dr Bob's....Somehow we just feel the same and babble will be bye bye for a lot of us...I am sickened to think of the walls with no windows being viewed as civil and sensitive myself
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU I AM NOT A PART OF THAT WE either
> > I am trying to understand the hurt feelings
> > And I am trying to find ways to show people that .
> >
> > We can choose how to view this...
>
> Please don't say "we" it's a complete contradiction. I don't need someone to show me how to choose. I *have* chosen how to view this, and my view is different from yours. The way that is phrased it sounds like the only way I could be choosing is if I agree to this, and that's rather ironic. My feelings are not hurt, I'm angry, and I'm disappointed.
>
> I frequently change my mind when an argument presented seems valid to me.
> I haven't seen one yet, "The words have changed but the song remains the same"
>
> No, I don't think this is as extreme as choosing people by color. However sometimes people exaggerate to make a point.
> I think having private conversation which can be viewed but not participated in by the rest of babble is insensitive, I think it promotes cliquisheness and it insinuates that there is an unruly mass to get away from.
>
> >we really don't need to be that hurt
>
> That's right, anyone who wants a private conversation can have one.. IN PRIVATE
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 19:44:27
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 19:33:03
A blonde moment maybe but Gab you think someone else is on her puter? Or??? I know for myself I keep saying it's up to Dr Bob and nobody else .....but ??
> > And I am trying to find ways to show people that we really don't need to be that hurt.
> >
> Alexandra I really don't think that's up to you.
> Do you really? It just doesn't sound like you to me.
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 19:48:12
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » Gabbix2, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 19:34:13
> Thank you Gab for this post
Posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 20:17:27
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 19:22:28
> > We can choose how to view this...
> I don't need someone to show me how to choose.
I am not trying to tell you or show you *how* to choose, I am trying to tell you or show you that it is in fact a matter of choice.
You have the choice, we all do.
I don't care *what* people choose.
I care how people feel as a consequence of their choice.
I am trying to show you that there are options.>My feelings are not hurt, I'm angry, and I'm disappointed.
Hmm. I would consider anger and disappointment to be painful feelings. Feelings that are unpleasant anyways.
I don't care whether people want small boards or not. I don't care whether there are small boards or not.
I do care about how people feel about whether small boards happen or not.
But you choose to feel a certain way as a result of the way you choose to view small boards.
Your issue.
But I wish people weren't so upset / hurt / disappointed / whatever about this.
I wish people wouldn't question Dr Bob's motives about this. Because I can see things both ways. I can see how one could be well intentioned and want small boards. I can see how one could be well intentioned and not want small boards.I just wish people weren't so upset about this...
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 20:42:47
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 20:17:27
Those are nice wishes but are not part of my reality... I do not share in the Bob is right mentality and Bob knows best. Still I wish you could somehow find peace in our upsetness we are OK with it..I own my feelings I ate, slept good and loled a lot today...I am not falling on a sword over this but that is because I feel my stand on this is based on a higher principle than myself and what I want or wish but what I feel is right..Dr Bob WILL do whatever he wants and people will like it and people won't and you will see some go and some stay thats just life. The older I get the more I understand authority is not always right...and malice doesnt need to exist...if something is wrong it just is...That said I wish you well as always but I also believe you will never find the not botheredness you seek.
> > > We can choose how to view this...
>
> > I don't need someone to show me how to choose.
>
> I am not trying to tell you or show you *how* to choose, I am trying to tell you or show you that it is in fact a matter of choice.
>
> You have the choice, we all do.
> I don't care *what* people choose.
> I care how people feel as a consequence of their choice.
> I am trying to show you that there are options.
>
> >My feelings are not hurt, I'm angry, and I'm disappointed.
>
> Hmm. I would consider anger and disappointment to be painful feelings. Feelings that are unpleasant anyways.
>
> I don't care whether people want small boards or not. I don't care whether there are small boards or not.
>
> I do care about how people feel about whether small boards happen or not.
>
> But you choose to feel a certain way as a result of the way you choose to view small boards.
>
> Your issue.
> But I wish people weren't so upset / hurt / disappointed / whatever about this.
> I wish people wouldn't question Dr Bob's motives about this. Because I can see things both ways. I can see how one could be well intentioned and want small boards. I can see how one could be well intentioned and not want small boards.
>
> I just wish people weren't so upset about this...
>
>
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 20:51:26
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 20:17:27
> > > We can choose how to view this...
>
> > I don't need someone to show me how to choose.
>
> I am not trying to tell you or show you *how* to choose, I am trying to tell you or show you that it is in fact a matter of choice.
>
Of course it's a matter of choice, what else would it be?
> You have the choice, we all do.
> I don't care *what* people choose.
> I care how people feel as a consequence of their choice.
> I am trying to show you that there are options.
>
Again, when you phrase it like that "I'm trying to show you" it sounds to me as if you feel you are somehow gifted with something that I am unable to see, I'm afraid in this instance that's just not the case. I hear what you are saying, I don't agree with it.
> >My feelings are not hurt, I'm angry, and I'm disappointed.
>
> Hmm. I would consider anger and disappointment to be painful feelings. Feelings that are unpleasant anyways. Yes but to me quite different than hurt.>
> I don't care whether people want small boards or not. I don't care whether there are small boards or not.
>
> I do care about how people feel about whether small boards happen or not.
>
> But you choose to feel a certain way as a result of the way you choose to view small boards.There are a few things in life I get angry about.
Cliquisheness/elitism or any of it's variances one of them.
Anger can be constructive and, as long as I still see people as individuals and do not direct my anger where it's not warranted
I have no problem with it, so perhaps you shouldn't be upset about my feelings.> But I wish people weren't so upset / hurt / disappointed / whatever about this.
> I wish people wouldn't question Dr Bob's motives about this.Dinah explained quite well some reasons he might have for this that were not innately negative, but a different way of viewing Babble. I agreed with her.
Because I can see things both ways. I can see how one could be well intentioned and want small boards. I can see how one could be well intentioned and not want small boards.
And??
> I just wish people weren't so upset about this...Well, I'm not going to stop being upset about things I think are potentially hurtful, and I'm not going to choose to not see it as potentially hurtful in order to ease into a tepid congeniality.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 21:15:20
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 20:42:47
> I do not share in the Bob is right mentality and Bob knows best.
Oh, I never meant to imply that! I just meant that I believe that Bob is well intentioned.
As are we all.
That makes it harder to be mad at him.
Not impossible, but harder.>I wish you could somehow find peace in our upsetness we are OK with it..
Oh, I'll be ok. I just care about how you guys feel and don't like to see people upset. But I won't lose sleep over it, okay?
No hard feelings.
?
Posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 21:36:41
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 20:51:26
> Of course it's a matter of choice, what else would it be?
Well it could be *just obvious* that one way of viewing it is the *right* way.
> Again, when you phrase it like that "I'm trying to show you" it sounds to me as if you feel you are somehow gifted with something that I am unable to see, I'm afraid in this instance that's just not the case. I hear what you are saying, I don't agree with it.
You don't agree that there are options?
You don't agree that there are different ways of seeing small boards?
That was what I was saying.I genuinely apologise that that did sound condescending. I see that now that you point it out.
> There are a few things in life I get angry about. Cliquisheness/elitism or any of it's variances one of them.But it is a choice to see small boards as *cliquish* and *elite*.
I would feel so very mad at Dr Bob if I thought that the truth of the situation was that small boards are *cliquish* and *elite* and yet he wanted them anyway. His intentions must be very evil indeed...
If I thought the truth of the situation was that small boards were *cliquish* and *elite* then perhaps I would be mad at him for his stupidity in refusing to recognise that fact.
But he has an alternative way of seeing small boards. He does not see them as *cliquish* and *elite*.
There are alternative ways to view them.
And that is a different issue from whether they should be implemented or not.
I don't mind that you prefer not to have them.
I think not wanting something to happen that has the potential to produce hurt feelings in others is a good and noble reason (not that you need my approval of course).Some people may feel envious that they cannot be part of one small board in particular.
Sounds like that is what people are trying to prevent.
But are those feelings of envy something that follows from small boards or something that follows from *judging* some small boards to be better than another?
We choose to feel hurt...
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 22:42:00
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 21:36:41
> > Of course it's a matter of choice, what else would it be?
>
> Well it could be *just obvious* that one way of viewing it is the *right* way.Oh, that didn't even enter my head actually!
If I ever think that, and I have, I will say
"That's just wrong!" And of course that's when I know I have no decent argument : )
>
> > Again, when you phrase it like that "I'm trying to show you" it sounds to me as if you feel you are somehow gifted with something that I am unable to see, I'm afraid in this instance that's just not the case. I hear what you are saying, I don't agree with it.
>
> You don't agree that there are options?
Well, yeah.. but no more than in any situation.
> You don't agree that there are different ways of seeing small boards?Yes, but I think we're looking at different issues about the boards actually.
> That was what I was saying.
>
> I genuinely apologise that that did sound condescending. I see that now that you point it out.Tis why I pointed it out, I didn't really think that was "you"
>
> > There are a few things in life I get angry about. Cliquisheness/elitism or any of it's variances one of them.
>
> But it is a choice to see small boards as *cliquish* and *elite*.
>
I believe that having private conversations where everyone is not included is cliquish.
Yes it's my choice, but if it is, so is my belief that it's wrong to mock handicapped people.
> I would feel so very mad at Dr Bob if I thought that the truth of the situation was that small boards are *cliquish* and *elite* and yet he wanted them anyway. His intentions must be very evil indeed...It's not that clear cut, some people don't believe it is cliquish, or promotes cliquishness.
My Gym teachers thought there was nothing wrong with having someone pick teams for basketball,
it would have been silly to call them evil.
Many laws have been changed that now we now can't believe ever existed because of their injustice, and I don't believe they were implemented because of innate evil. Much harm can be done out of thoughtlessness though, or inexperience in a certain area.
> If I thought the truth of the situation was that small boards were *cliquish* and *elite* then perhaps I would be mad at him for his stupidity in refusing to recognise that fact.
>
Perhaps he hasn't had enough experience on the outside, or with group dynamics, sometimes things have to be seen or felt to be understood.
> But he has an alternative way of seeing small boards. He does not see them as *cliquish* and *elite*.
>
> There are alternative ways to view them.Yes, and he does, as I do, it works both ways.
>
> And that is a different issue from whether they should be implemented or not.No, actually I can agree to disagree on just about any topic but not where it involves implementing something that I believe is going to hurt people.
> I don't mind that you prefer not to have them.
> I think not wanting something to happen that has the potential to produce hurt feelings in others is a good and noble reason (not that you need my approval of course).
>
> Some people may feel envious that they cannot be part of one small board in particular.
>
> Sounds like that is what people are trying to prevent.
>
> But are those feelings of envy something that follows from small boards or something that follows from *judging* some small boards to be better than another?I in complete honesty have no idea where the Idea of envying the better board came from. I don't think that's at all the issue Alexandra,
actually it almost sounds funny to me. If I missed it on a thread please feel free to point it out. Or could someone please tell me if that is their issue?
> We choose to feel hurt...That's not something I agree with as a general statement. It's currently popular, but not a belief I ascribe to.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 23:40:45
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 22:42:00
> I believe that having private conversations where everyone is not included is cliquish.
> Yes it's my choice, but if it is, so is my belief that it's wrong to mock handicapped people.Ok. There I would say 'why is it wrong to mock handicapped people' and we would probably agree that it is hurtful. And so here I guess your point is that the former is hurtful too...
But I would say that some good could come of small boards (not that it *will* come - but that it *might possibly*) for all the reasons that Dr Bob has given. Whereas I cannot see what good could come of mocking handicapped people.
> Perhaps he hasn't had enough experience on the outside, or with group dynamics, sometimes things have to be seen or felt to be understood.
Maybe he doesn't get how hurt people are likely to be...
> Yes, and he does, as I do, it works both ways.
Yes.
> > And that is a different issue from whether they should be implemented or not.
> No, actually I can agree to disagree on just about any topic but not where it involves implementing something that I believe is going to hurt people.Not even for a greater good? I would say that Dr Bob thinks more good than harm would be likely to come from this or he wouldn't want to implement the idea. Maybe he is wrong, but I have faith that he is well intentioned (as are we all...).
Ok, I retract 'envy' (apologies) and replace it with 'hurt' as follows:
> > Some people may feel hurt that they cannot be part of one small board in particular.
> > Sounds like that is what people are trying to prevent.
> > But are those feelings of hurt something that follows from small boards or something that follows from...And now I need to alter the ending...
... Hmm. You have a good point.
> We choose to feel hurt...
> That's not something I agree with as a general statement. It's currently popular, but not a belief I ascribe to.
Yeah. I am not sure what I think there.
So some people will most probably feel excluded and hurt. They will want to be able to join one of the groups but they will be prevented.
But is there a possible greater good?
Will some people stay on Babble who otherwise would leave?
Will some people feel more supported and more understood?Hard to weigh...
I haven't made my mind up either way...
PS. Ever thought of taking up philosophy :-)
Posted by Fallen4MyT on February 1, 2005, at 0:49:24
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » Fallen4MyT, posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 21:15:20
Perfect lol exactly....we are on the same wave lengh again...we will all be fine...and just don;t agree. I think its sweet that you care how we feel but you cannot take our feelings on for your own sake...always friends :) Anyone 18 hours away...well...hehe.....For the record though I do not hate Bob he is IMO not helping and maybe the feelings issue should be best addressed to him is all.
HUGS> > I do not share in the Bob is right mentality and Bob knows best.
>
> Oh, I never meant to imply that! I just meant that I believe that Bob is well intentioned.
>
> As are we all.
> That makes it harder to be mad at him.
> Not impossible, but harder.
>
> >I wish you could somehow find peace in our upsetness we are OK with it..
>
> Oh, I'll be ok. I just care about how you guys feel and don't like to see people upset. But I won't lose sleep over it, okay?
>
> No hard feelings.
> ?
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 1, 2005, at 2:17:03
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 19:22:28
> Those of us who travel the psych circuit have been shut out from enough rooms, enough private conversations, and have been whispered about too much.
>
> Gabbix2I think that's a lot of it.
If people know what it's like to be shut out, that may be the last thing they'd want to do to someone else.
Which is of course being empathic.
But I think it's OK if they think about themselves, too. And want a room to stay cozy, for example, if that's the way they like it.
==
> This is a case where I will be like Rosa Parks and stand up for all of those who want a bus seat......
>
> Fallen4MyTWhat if there are 100?
--
> I really wish Dr. Bob could see Babble as a community, not a restaurant, not an accomodation.
Sorry, can you explain again what the difference would be?
> I might see a group of people who seem funny or warm, or who are carrying on a really fun conversations about mangoes. But when I went to try to join in, I'd be hit with an invisible wall that said "Sorry, these people won't let you in, but you're welcome to join this other group over here." How on earth is that equal? Or inviting? How does it make Babble seem like a nice place?
>
> Dinah1. Some people try to join in now and hit an invisible wall. And what recourse do they have?
2. It would be equal opportunity. I might see a group of people sharing a mango, and I might think it would be nice if I could get one, too.
--
> Why on earth would I envy people who were involved in something I find so repugnant? ... it's a matter of rudeness and elitism.
Sorry, but please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down, thanks.
> it insinuates that there is an unruly mass to get away from.
>
> Gabbix2Masses (crowds, mobs, large groups) *do* tend to be unruly. That's the whole thing.
Which is another point, some people might prefer to provide support in a more concentrated way. And I think that would be fine...
Bob
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:41:12
In reply to Re: why people don't like this, posted by Dr. Bob on February 1, 2005, at 2:17:03
> > I really wish Dr. Bob could see Babble as a community, not a restaurant, not an accomodation.
>
> Sorry, can you explain again what the difference would be?
>
No, I fear I can't. I've explained it in the best words I have, and if you don't understand it, I have no more words to offer you to explain in a way you can hear.But I tell you what. This has happened before. I have tried till my face was blue to explain something so you could understand, with no luck whatsoever. Then someone you respect, Dr. Kali Munro, said the same thing once, and voila! you understood. Perhaps if you ask someone you respect, like Dr. Munro, what the difference is between an accomodation and a community, and the difference between public private "parties" in an accomodation and a community, they'd be able to understand it in a way you can hear.
> > I might see a group of people who seem funny or warm, or who are carrying on a really fun conversations about mangoes. But when I went to try to join in, I'd be hit with an invisible wall that said "Sorry, these people won't let you in, but you're welcome to join this other group over here." How on earth is that equal? Or inviting? How does it make Babble seem like a nice place?
> >
> > Dinah
>
> 1. Some people try to join in now and hit an invisible wall. And what recourse do they have?
>
> 2. It would be equal opportunity. I might see a group of people sharing a mango, and I might think it would be nice if I could get one, too.
>
> --
>
I don't understand this *at all* or what on earth it has to do with restrictions. People can only buy a mango if there's a store that will only sell to certain people? Huh?Why would they find a wall now? How would starting their own mango conversation be equivilant to joining in the one that is currently going on? What makes you think that strangers aren't welcome in a mango conversation? One of my fondest Babble memories is from meeting new people through the magic of mangoes.
What does any of that have to do with the problem of being private in public? There are currently the equivilant of small rooms right now. Private emails, Yahoo conferences, phone calls. But they aren't done in public. Can you truly not understand the concept? Did your mother not teach you this? Your school? My son understands this. It doesn't seem like a stretch goal for you. Again, if I can't explain it properly, perhaps you could find someone you respect who can manage to do so. I wouldn't wish to offer my son's teachers, or support staff, or fellow elementary school students to come explain it to you publicly for reasons of my own privacy. But if you think you could respect any one of them, I can give one of his teachers, or counselors, or fellow elementary school students your email address and perhaps they could find better words to explain.
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:41:42
In reply to Re: why people don't like this, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:41:12
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:50:39
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 20:17:27
Ahhh. CBT.
I hate it.
While I can see the value of reframing issues sometimes, I can't see the value of reframing them always. Sometimes issues shouldn't be reframed. A lot of injustice happens when people reframe things that shouldn't be reframed.
And sometimes, when there is no choice, and you might as well accept something or leave, there is *still* more than one way to reframe something. I don't think reframing it in such a way as to violate your core values is a viable option.
And choosing to be hurt seems to me like the old sticks and stones retort. It sounds nice. It makes the CBT'ers tails' wag. But I think it sounds nicer than it sounds true.
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:55:35
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:50:39
I think my logic about walls with no doors is along the lines that there are already walls with no doors. Emails, Open (which is of course Open to all, but not everyone is there at any given time and it's not archived), Yahoo conferences. They're all things we do when we wish to be private.
They're all very nice ways of being private, because they *are* private.
Restrictions are a not very nice way of being private, because they're not private.
I still just don't understand why Dr. Bob is so wedded to the idea of restrictions. I can come up with lots of nice pleasant reasons for his motives in a lot of aspects to this, but I'm at a loss when it comes to his attachments to restrictions. To exclusion. It's even harder to comprehend when he mixes a wedding to the idea of exclusion to a wedding of making the exlusion area public.
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