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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 96. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 12:11:25
In reply to Re: Hoping we can get along with each other, posted by Dr. Bob on April 7, 2003, at 10:57:11
Well, Dr. Bob, I'm with Oddipus on this one.
I'm amazed you don't see it. And I must say that if the posters on this board are allowed to compare the fine young men and women of our military to terrorists (or to find "parallels" to terrorists), I won't be able to be as supportive as I would prefer to be. It would be against every principle I have to allow that sort of statement to go unchallenged. And while I try very hard to put my objections civilly, it is quite difficult to be civil under some circumstances.
And I if I end up with a PBC, I'll consider you completely to blame for allowing an atmosphere that forces me into a position I do not wish to be in, and should not have to be in on a board dedicated to support and education.
Phissshhhhh.
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 12:18:01
In reply to Re: Hoping we can get along with each other » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 12:11:25
I think you should send apologies to the family of those military personnel who were killed while trying to aid a screaming pregnant woman.
It's a pretty sad state of affairs when the enemy has a better opinion of the humanity of our soldiers than our citizens do.
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 12:18:29
In reply to Re: And BY the way, posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 12:18:01
Posted by Phil on April 7, 2003, at 12:36:04
In reply to Re: Above for Dr. Bob (nm), posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 12:18:29
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 13:08:23
In reply to You can lie about America, just don't be sarcastic (nm), posted by Phil on April 7, 2003, at 12:36:04
Phil, I think you should wear this PBC proudly.
In fact, Dr. Bob, I'd like one for myself to wear proudly. I assure you that what I'm thinking about you is not at all civil. And wipe that smile off your face.
Our military is willing to put their life on the line to defend us if it's necessary. It doesn't seem right not to defend them from completely unfair "parallels" on a public site.
Geez, Phil. You should see my ponytails quivering and the steam rising from my ears.
Posted by OddipusRex on April 7, 2003, at 14:16:48
In reply to Re: Hoping we can get along with each other, posted by Dr. Bob on April 7, 2003, at 10:57:11
> > > > > Here's a paradox: Terrorists in our society are supposedly evil. The definition of a terrorist is a person who plots to kill an innocent civilian. Yet our allied forces conspire to kill the same number of `enemy' human beings who died in the World Trade Towers.
> > > > > Our allied forces are not terrorists?
> > > > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030401/msgs/216284.html
____________________________________________________________________________Why are you referring me to a link quoting Goerhing? What are you suggesting? How is that relevant? I have NEVER suggested anyone should not oppose the war or questioned anyone's patriotism.
> > Logically flawed is one thing, uncivil is another.
>
> IMO, it doesn't "equate" innocent civilians with enemy human beings, or terrorists and allied forces, it suggests (note the question mark) parallels.
>
enemy
adj : of or belonging to an enemy; "enemy planes" [syn: enemy(a)] n 1: an opposing military force; "the enemy attacked at dawn" 2: an armed adversary (especially a member of an opposing military force); "a soldier must be prepared to kill his enemies"http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=enemy
What parallel do you think it suggests?
You refer to Goerhing. Neonazis refer to Goerhing. Am I allowed to draw any vile parallel as long as I end with a question mark?
Posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 14:52:22
In reply to Re: Hoping you'll apologize » Dr. Bob, posted by OddipusRex on April 7, 2003, at 14:16:48
You're kidding, right?
beardy
Posted by IsoM on April 7, 2003, at 15:38:28
In reply to Re: Hoping you'll apologize » Dr. Bob, posted by OddipusRex on April 7, 2003, at 14:16:48
Please, Oddipus Rex, don't you see what I was trying to get at when I posted that quote from Goering? He was a monster - horrible beyond words, but it was the gist of the message, not who spoke it, I wanted people to see. What if it came from Aristotle or Einstein instead?
No matter what nation we live in, if the people in that nation are patritotic & love their country, the majority will see themselves as the "good guy" & the other side as the aggressors. If people didn't believe that, who'd be willing to go to war for something they believed wasn't true?
And if we don't believe that the leaders of any nation aren't carefully crafting their words & the image they project, we're deluding ourselves. That's why there are speech writers & public relation peoples working to show the best they can. I watch leaders (of many countries, none in particular) give speeches & I watch their faces carefully. They're watching for the reactions to their comments - you can see their eyes moving over the audience, calculating the effect of their words. There's a great deal of psychology behind all this that's carefully used for the greatest impact on each nation's citizens.
I don't see one side as good & the other bad. I don't see one leader as evil & the other righteous. I see mistrust & hate & fear-mongering & confusion. I see pain & grief & horrors from all sides.
I watched the news of one US female soldier who was killed & she left behind 2 little girls, 3 & 4 years old, & my eyes filled with tears. I watched an Iraqi father sobbing next to a bed where his child that was seriously wounded in the bombing lay, & my eyes filled with tears. So much hate, so many blaming each side, so much death. Does one have to be for or against? Can't one just loathe all this without choosing sides?
I don't even pretend I'd know what to do. There's no easy answer - maybe there is no answer. Hasn't wars, hate, & killing been going on for many thousands of years? But even if I don't know the right answer, I can at least say what's a wrong answer. If someone came up with "highway construction" as the answer for a complex math equation, one wouldn't have to know the right answer to know that it wasn't the right answer for the equation. It's a lousy example, but all I'm trying to say that killing & hate is not the right answer for the problems facing this world.
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 15:49:23
In reply to Re: Hoping you'll apologize » OddipusRex, posted by IsoM on April 7, 2003, at 15:38:28
>I don't see one leader as evil & the other righteous.You don't see Saddam as evil? Wow. I'm pretty much speechless. Why not?
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 15:52:34
In reply to Re: Hoping you'll apologize » OddipusRex, posted by IsoM on April 7, 2003, at 15:38:28
It really doesn't matter if you don't see Saddam as evil, and I don't really need to know your reasons.
My objection was to the vilification of the military, not to the redemption of Saddam Hussein.
I'm sorry to have been diverted. It really isn't any business of mine what you feel about Saddam.
Posted by fayeroe on April 7, 2003, at 16:20:35
In reply to Re: Hoping you'll apologize » OddipusRex, posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 14:52:22
> You're kidding, right?
>
> beardycoming out of my self-imposed banning....you ARE kidding, aren't you?
Posted by OddipusRex on April 7, 2003, at 16:54:02
In reply to Re: Hoping you'll apologize » OddipusRex, posted by IsoM on April 7, 2003, at 15:38:28
> Please, Oddipus Rex, don't you see what I was trying to get at when I posted that quote from Goering? He was a monster - horrible beyond words,
................
Iso didn't you just make a judgement about righteousness and evil?
I understand your quote. I was asking Bob why he linked to it in reference to my objections to another post. I am not being led blindly. I am not objecting to anyone's pacifism or questioning their patriotism.
I was using the quote as an example of false parallels being used to defame someone you don't agree with.(When I suggested that Neonazis also quote goehring as Bob did etc.)
Should I just sit by like a muddleheaded sheep and agree that there is a parallel between American soldiers and terrorists? That there is a parallel between murdering unarmed civilians and killing enemy soldiers in a war? Isn't that what you were warning about-not questioning what your told? So, I questioned. I objected and still do.
I've criticized the media too. And I'm not some blind idiot who believes everything he reads. Or why would I have objected?
>
> I don't see one side as good & the other bad. I don't see one leader as evil & the other righteous. I see mistrust & hate & fear-mongering & confusion. I see pain & grief & horrors from all sides.
....................
True but sometimes hard decisions have to be made. Everything isn't black or white. There is no perfect solution. And even if you don't agree with the actions of the coalition it doesn't follow that they are morally equivalent to terrorists or the Saddam Hussein regime. Did you read the story about "Chemical Ali"? Do you really think he is no more evil than Tony Blair and should have been left alone? Being non-judgmental is very fashionable but people do have to make judgements every day. I don't think anyone underestimates the grief and suffering on all sides but that is different from pretending there is no difference between the two sides.>
Can't one just loathe all this without choosing sides?Of course, but not choosing is a choice too. And one can loathe it whatever choice he makes.
..............................It's a lousy example, but all I'm trying to say that killing & hate is not the right answer for the problems facing this world.
...............................
I would agree. Hitler and Chemical Ali might not though. And if no one stops the people who believe it is the answer they will prevail. I respect true Pacifists but I don't think they have to resort to untrue comparisons to make their point. And I respect people who simply disagree with the way things are being done or the timing etc. There are arguments against it that don't rely on overgeneralizations false paralells and slurs.Iso My questions about the post were directed to Bob because he pasted a link to it. I don't think it was appropriate in that context. I found it patronizing and insulting as well as accusatory in that context. My post on Admin was not directed to you. I hadn't even read your post until Bob linked to it.
Posted by OddipusRex on April 7, 2003, at 16:57:18
In reply to Re: Hoping you'll apologize, posted by fayeroe on April 7, 2003, at 16:20:35
Posted by OddipusRex on April 7, 2003, at 16:59:27
In reply to Re: Hoping you'll apologize » OddipusRex, posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 14:52:22
Posted by OddipusRex on April 7, 2003, at 17:34:09
In reply to Re: Hoping we can get along with each other, posted by Dr. Bob on April 7, 2003, at 10:57:11
> > IMO, it doesn't "equate" innocent civilians with enemy human beings, or terrorists and allied forces, it suggests (note the question mark) parallels.
>
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=parallel&r=2
parallel\Par"al*lel\, n. .
3. Conformity continued through many particulars or in all essential points; resemblance; similarity.
Twixt earthly females and the moon All parallels exactly run. --Swift.
4. A comparison made; elaborate tracing of similarity; as, Johnson's parallel between Dryden and Pope.
5. Anything equal to, or resembling, another in all essential particulars; a counterpart.
None but thyself can be thy parallel. --Pope.
Amen your Holiness !
(mild jest to relieve tension)
Posted by jane d on April 7, 2003, at 17:57:18
In reply to Please don't post to me again. Thanks (nm) » beardedlady, posted by OddipusRex on April 7, 2003, at 16:59:27
Oddipus,
I hope I'm not violating your "don't post to me" request. I haven't had a chance to read that entire thread yet. I suspect when I do I will strongly object to the whole idea and your post will become exhibit a for my objections. I'd hate to be caught judging another poster's motives (so uncivil after all) but I think it's safe to say that Beardedlady's "you're kidding" was another expression of her low opinion of Bob, as in "you must be kidding if you think you'll get an apology" rather than a comment one way or another on your beliefs. If you go back in the archives you'll find a number of similar comments. Unfortunately if you tell people not to post to you there's no chance you'll get a clarification.Jane,
who doesn't want to lose this board over politics. not even her own.
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 18:02:47
In reply to Re: Hoping you'll apologize » IsoM, posted by OddipusRex on April 7, 2003, at 16:54:02
You expressed that so wonderfully that I really can find nothing to say except to apologize for sticking my own two cents in. :)
(But I do think Jane was right about Beardy. She was insulting Bob again.)
Posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 18:35:24
In reply to Re: Please don't post to me again. Thanks » OddipusRex, posted by jane d on April 7, 2003, at 17:57:18
It seems some people will just never get it. They would rather believe that everyone is out to get them that someone could actually be on their side.
I don't recall Bob having ever apologized or admitted a mistake, even when an overwhelming majority of posters asked him to rethink a decision.
But it's fine. Oddipus spends her time picking apart single words in my posts and giving them meanings I've never assigned them.
I'd prefer she didn't post to me, either.
beardy
Posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 18:36:33
In reply to Re: You are my hero » OddipusRex, posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 18:02:47
Posted by IsoM on April 7, 2003, at 18:59:12
In reply to Re: Hoping you'll apologize, posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 15:49:23
Sorry, Dinah, I didn't make my comment clear. I DO see Hussein as very cunning & cruel - almost psychopathical. But I see much that's wrong with Bush & Blair too. What I meant was I don't see one side as simply evil & the other as simply good. Old movies used to have it clear cut who the good guys were & who were the bad. Think of it as a story where there's no happy ending & no obvious hero, though plenty of villians.
No one comes out of this smelling of roses. Some just stink more than others but a bad stench comes from all sides.
Those last two sentences will definitely be my opinion only. Others will disagree & I don't mind - we all look at a situation through different eyes. But we're all powerless to do anything about it what's happening anyway.
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 19:11:22
In reply to Need to Clarify My Comment » Dinah, posted by IsoM on April 7, 2003, at 18:59:12
Thanks for saying some stink worse than others. :)
I really did mean my apology. It really isn't my business if you vote for Saddam in the next election. (that's a joke, btw)
I'm not a black or white thinker either. And if I try, I can think of some legitimate reasons Saddam might have for being angry. But I can't bring myself to think of him as anything but evil. But that's just me.
But again, I really did mean my apology.
Posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 19:21:42
In reply to Re: You are my hero » OddipusRex, posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 18:02:47
> (But I do think Jane was right about Beardy. She was insulting Bob again.)
I have disagreed with Bob, but I have not insulted him (except for one time a year ago, and I didn't mean the word I used as an insult).
Anyway, I wasn't insulting him. I was saying, "not gonna happen." It's not been his way to apologize.
beardy
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 19:23:03
In reply to Wait a minute... » Dinah, posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2003, at 19:21:42
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 19:27:21
In reply to Re: LOL. Sorry. Thanks for the clarification. (nm) » beardedlady, posted by Dinah on April 7, 2003, at 19:23:03
Sorry, that struck me as funny, but I didn't mean to sound flippant.
It was a poor choice of words on my part to say you were insulting Bob.
It hasn't been a good day
Posted by IsoM on April 7, 2003, at 19:31:04
In reply to Re: Hoping you'll apologize » IsoM, posted by OddipusRex on April 7, 2003, at 16:54:02
Oddipus Rex, I'm hoping you will read this & not be insulted as no slight is meant in the least.
I do understand how some will feel that murderous dictators need to looked after by someone. That if no one acts, things will just become worse. I really do. It's a tough decision. It's just not one I feel comfortable making. I know my not choosing sides is a decision too, & one I'm proud of.
No, I wasn't trying to make a judgement about righteousness & eveil. Sorry if it came across that way. It's rare that even the most evil person doesn't show some signs of tenderness or love sometimes to someone (not that it makes them okay). And even the "most saintly" person has faults & weaknesses. If I could read people's hearts then I could judge but I can't, of course. And I'm very much NOT non-judgemental, but I keep my mouth shut about my judgements. I'm afraid few live up to my expectations. I'm only trying to comment on this whole situation, not judge it. (Though that might not be clear to others. I'm trying the best I can to explain it.)
I'm naively idealistic still. An idealistic optimist who's also very cynical - a strange combination. If you were to know me, you'd understand. I still want to pick flowers from my garden & hand them to a young mother & child walking past my place - & I do sometimes, or the paperboy, or smile at the old person walking along. Not because I know them or want something from them, but just to share in some of the beauty & joys of life. I don't need to ever see them again or want something from them to care.
I naively wish the whole world could just reach out & try to accept one another. To learn of each other's cultures, languages, history, & ideals, & to accept whatever we find delightful into our own lives. I wish everyone didn't have to look for hidden meanings behind what others say or do. But the cynic is me knows that's not the way the world runs. It saddens me deeply. I feel like I've never lost my innocence but most of the world has. I don't want that to sound arrogant - I don't mean it that way.
And being an idealist, I really do expect people to live up to what they say, or apologize & explain why they weren't able to. I'd like to see those who lead the nations (& all those in lesser positions of power all the way down), do so for noble reasons & for the betterment of others & not themselves. But it doesn't work that way.
I see the young soldiers of the US & UK, & I think "they're still kids!" & hurt for them. I see Iraqi soldiers & I think "I wonder what they're like?" I think of their families & the traditional Mid-Eastern hospitality shown to all guests, known or unknown & feel a wave of sadness.
Individually, most of these people are ordinary humans like us with hopes, dreams, & families too. It's the ones higher up in power who pull the strings, who manipulate ordinary people into killing other ordinary people.
I know it pains you too. I never want to forget the individual human faces of each one that's been drawn into doing something they never would otherwise - killing another.
And thank you for letting me know it wasn't my quote that bothered you but the way Bob used it. I did misunderstand that.
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