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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 86 to 110 of 159. Go back in thread:
Posted by kiddo on July 21, 2002, at 23:02:06
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Kiddo's post » Lou Pilder, posted by kiddo on July 21, 2002, at 22:49:14
I'm not going to reply to anymore messages on this or Faith, except Dr. Bob if the need arises.
Thanks-
Kiddo
Posted by kiddo on July 21, 2002, at 23:56:42
In reply to Re: please be supportive » Dr. Bob, posted by kiddo on July 19, 2002, at 17:42:46
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 22, 2002, at 0:25:50
In reply to Re: support...Well Dr. Bob??? (nm), posted by kiddo on July 21, 2002, at 23:56:42
> > > The Rider was quoting Jesus, and Jesus IS the Word. If what is said by any man; whether it is the Rider on the white horse, a Teacher or Preacher, if it isn't in accordance with the Word, it is wrong and therefore the wrong road.
> >
> > You (and everyone else) are entitled to believe whatever you like, but I don't think it's supportive here to imply that there's only one "right" road and all others are wrong.
>
> That IS what I believe. Who's being supportive to me? I don't mean to sound sarcastic, I'd really like to know.
>
> KiddoSorry I haven't been around, this sure blew up...
Sometimes the goals of these boards conflict. One goal is of course that they be supportive. Another is that people feel free to post, since how else are they going to be supported? But being supportive takes precedence. My approach to civility is, it doesn't matter if someone really believes something -- or to some extent even if it's true -- if it's uncivil, they shouldn't post it. It's a tradeoff, that person can't vent or receive support themselves (at least not here), but the overall atmosphere is (IMO) more supportive for others. "The good of the many outweighs the good of the few":
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020308/msgs/3793.html
It's the same idea regarding matters of faith. Someone may really believe someone else will be damned, but it keeps the overall atmosphere more supportive not to post that. Jane maybe said this better:
> I think that when you say "You are wrong" people have this compulsion to reply "No I'm not. You are." And it goes back and forth, with each round getting angrier, until no one can talk to each other about anything.
>
> I think we all believe our own version of the truth is correct. I'm as rigid as anyone else in that respect. We've set up a society that says it is better to at least give lip service to other peoples rights to their own beliefs than to constantly be at war over it. And we've got a board here which takes a similar stand. I think that's a good thing. It lets people avoid getting so angry at each other over one issue that they can't speak to each other about anything at all.
>
> Jane----
> imo the original PBC got turned into something it is not, and that most of the discussion does not center around the point of the PBC.
>
> SharI agree.
> > I am saying, like Dr. Bob was cautioning Kiddo, that the total thought that Kiddo was presenting could be construed as anti-Semitic rhetoric.
>
> PLEASE TELL ME WHERE DR. BOB SAID THIS??????? ASKING ME TO BE SUPPORTIVE, AND SAYING THERE IS ONLY ONE ROAD IS A LOT DIFFERENT THAN TELLING ME WHAT I'M SAYING IS ANTI-SEMITIC RHETORIC.
>
> KiddoI was just saying what I said. I didn't think what you said was anti-Semitic. But I do think that beliefs that there's only one "right" road can (but don't necessarily) lead to "anti" feelings towards others -- and not just Jews.
Bob
Posted by shar on July 22, 2002, at 0:46:59
In reply to See you next fall? (nm) » shar, posted by beardedlady on July 21, 2002, at 7:59:46
Posted by kiddo on July 22, 2002, at 0:57:37
In reply to Re: support..., posted by Dr. Bob on July 22, 2002, at 0:25:50
> Sorry I haven't been around, this sure blew up...
Yes, it sure has......
>
> Sometimes the goals of these boards conflict. One goal is of course that they be supportive. Another is that people feel free to post, since how else are they going to be supported? But being supportive takes precedence. My approach to civility is, it doesn't matter if someone really believes something -- or to some extent even if it's true -- if it's uncivil, they shouldn't post it. It's a tradeoff, that person can't vent or receive support themselves (at least not here), but the overall atmosphere is (IMO) more supportive for others. "The good of the many outweighs the good of the few":
>I haven't been uncivil....your post was being supportive....I wasn't necessarily supportive in the fact that I posted what I believe, but I was civil about it....so in other words, forget what I believe, because it doesn't matter? That bothers me for the fact that you only seem to see one side of things.....
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020308/msgs/3793.html
>
> It's the same idea regarding matters of faith. Someone may really believe someone else will be damned, but it keeps the overall atmosphere more supportive not to post that. Jane maybe said this better:Fine
>
> > I think that when you say "You are wrong" people have this compulsion to reply "No I'm not. You are." And it goes back and forth, with each round getting angrier, until no one can talk to each other about anything.
> >
> > I think we all believe our own version of the truth is correct. I'm as rigid as anyone else in that respect. We've set up a society that says it is better to at least give lip service to other peoples rights to their own beliefs than to constantly be at war over it. And we've got a board here which takes a similar stand. I think that's a good thing. It lets people avoid getting so angry at each other over one issue that they can't speak to each other about anything at all.
> >
> > Jane
>
> ----
>
> > imo the original PBC got turned into something it is not, and that most of the discussion does not center around the point of the PBC.
> >
> > Shar
>
> I agree.
>
> > > I am saying, like Dr. Bob was cautioning Kiddo, that the total thought that Kiddo was presenting could be construed as anti-Semitic rhetoric.
> >
> > PLEASE TELL ME WHERE DR. BOB SAID THIS??????? ASKING ME TO BE SUPPORTIVE, AND SAYING THERE IS ONLY ONE ROAD IS A LOT DIFFERENT THAN TELLING ME WHAT I'M SAYING IS ANTI-SEMITIC RHETORIC.
> >
> > Kiddo
>
> I was just saying what I said. I didn't think what you said was anti-Semitic. But I do think that beliefs that there's only one "right" road can (but don't necessarily) lead to "anti" feelings towards others -- and not just Jews.
>
> Bob
I'm sorry that my belief causes you to feel that way....don't worry, it won't happen again, I won't post my beliefs here anymore.
Kiddo
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 22, 2002, at 1:18:46
In reply to Re: support..., posted by kiddo on July 22, 2002, at 0:57:37
> I haven't been uncivil....your post was being supportive....I wasn't necessarily supportive in the fact that I posted what I believe, but I was civil about it....so in other words, forget what I believe, because it doesn't matter? That bothers me for the fact that you only seem to see one side of things.....
Yes, you were civil about it. No, don't forget what you believe, it does matter, it's just that I don't think this is the place to discuss certain beliefs. I did try to explain how I saw both sides, I'm sorry if it doesn't seem like I see yours.
> > I was just saying what I said. I didn't think what you said was anti-Semitic. But I do think that beliefs that there's only one "right" road can (but don't necessarily) lead to "anti" feelings towards others -- and not just Jews.
>
> I'm sorry that my belief causes you to feel that way....don't worry, it won't happen again, I won't post my beliefs here anymore.It's not your belief that causes me to feel that way, it's a feeling I've had for a long time. And don't feel you shouldn't post *any* beliefs anymore, it's just the only-one-right-road type that I think are problematic.
Bob
Posted by kiddo on July 22, 2002, at 2:03:18
In reply to Re: support..., posted by Dr. Bob on July 22, 2002, at 1:18:46
> > I haven't been uncivil....your post was being supportive....I wasn't necessarily supportive in the fact that I posted what I believe, but I was civil about it....so in other words, forget what I believe, because it doesn't matter? That bothers me for the fact that you only seem to see one side of things.....
>
> Yes, you were civil about it. No, don't forget what you believe, it does matter, it's just that I don't think this is the place to discuss certain beliefs. I did try to explain how I saw both sides, I'm sorry if it doesn't seem like I see yours.
>So why am I not allowed to post about what I believe and others are? How are we to know which beliefs you approve? Thanks for the apology, unfortunately I feel no better.
> > > I was just saying what I said. I didn't think what you said was anti-Semitic. But I do think that beliefs that there's only one "right" road can (but don't necessarily) lead to "anti" feelings towards others -- and not just Jews.
> >
> > I'm sorry that my belief causes you to feel that way....don't worry, it won't happen again, I won't post my beliefs here anymore.
>
> It's not your belief that causes me to feel that way, it's a feeling I've had for a long time. And don't feel you shouldn't post *any* beliefs anymore, it's just the only-one-right-road type that I think are problematic.
>
> BobMay I ask what the difference in my road and Lou's road is? Why is his acceptable and mine isn't? You think he was supportive to me in all of this?
I give up.....
Kiddo
Posted by Dinah on July 22, 2002, at 2:07:16
In reply to Re: support..., posted by Dr. Bob on July 22, 2002, at 0:25:50
>
> Sorry I haven't been around, this sure blew up...
>Yes it sure did, and I'm not quite certain that your answer addressed all the concerns mentioned in this thread. In the goal of peace in our time, is there something more you would like to add?
>
> > imo the original PBC got turned into something it is not, and that most of the discussion does not center around the point of the PBC.
> >
> > Shar
>
> I agree.
>This would be the part I am referring to...
Just perhaps a reminder to please assume the best of someone's intentions until given evidence to the contrary, and to please try to educate in a gentle and considerate manner?
I guess I just fear that your answer will confirm a lot of preconcieved notions in the minds of many, and even if you don't agree with the thinking you should address the concerns anyway. For the good of the many.
And if you are totally unaware of what I'm talking about, I will be happy to elucidate, either here or via email, whichever you deem more appropriate.
There is so much bitterness on this site lately, and so many of my friends are so angry. I think a teensy bit more flexibility on your part would go a long way to healing wounds.
Sorry to be so cryptic. Now you know how we must feel. :)
I just seem to see some right in what each person on this thread has said.
With my customary respect,
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on July 22, 2002, at 2:11:21
In reply to Re: support... (and education),,,and support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 22, 2002, at 2:07:16
Is there any way to build into the software of this site a control similar to the stockmarket. When you are out of contact, and the vitriol level reaches a certain point, the site could shut down to allow for time to bring some perspective, or until you got back.
Like when the stock market crashes below a certain point and the stock market is closed to allow people to gain perspective from panic.
Just a fruitless wish.....
Posted by tabitha on July 22, 2002, at 12:22:23
In reply to Re: support... (and education),,,and support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 22, 2002, at 2:07:16
As I understand, one of the guidelines is to not make assumptions about others. Didn't Lou violate this when he called kiddo's posts anti-Semitic?
I think Dinah hinted at this, but what the heck, I'll go ahead and say it outright.
Posted by krazy kat on July 22, 2002, at 12:28:43
In reply to Re: support..., posted by kiddo on July 22, 2002, at 2:03:18
that's what makes it a belief! something which is supposed to be discussed in the faith board. If it doesn't matter which road one takes, then Lou's road posts are potentially offensive to others as well.
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 22, 2002, at 14:31:41
In reply to and Dr Bob, posted by tabitha on July 22, 2002, at 12:22:23
Tabitha,
I posted that Kiddo's posts *to me* crossed the line.... Now others may disagree and reasonable people do disagree. But it is the admin. that decides these types of things and Dr. Bob did post that the "right-wrong" road dogma could be offensive to jews and also others and that he as no going to allow it here. See the exact post above.
So, I beleive, I was not making an assumption. I cited the history of anti-Semtism in respect to Queen Isabella's expulsion of all jews in 1492 from Spainish lands to show that historically, jews have been persecuted for being jews. In nazi Germany, it was a crime to be a jew, punishable by death. Now I have not gone into that period of history yet, but when I do, then , perhaps, it will be known more why I consider the posts by Kiddo to "go over the line".
Lou
Posted by kiddo on July 22, 2002, at 14:41:07
In reply to Lou's response to Tabitha's post » tabitha, posted by Lou Pilder on July 22, 2002, at 14:31:41
> Tabitha,
> I posted that Kiddo's posts *to me* crossed the line.... Now others may disagree and reasonable people do disagree. But it is the admin. that decides these types of things and Dr. Bob did post that the "right-wrong" road dogma could be offensive to jews and also others and that he as no going to allow it here. See the exact post above.
Dr. Bob said that my post wasn't supportive in the fact that I said one road...NOTHING was said by Dr. Bob that my post was anti-semitic, or anti anything, he didn't mention it....as a matter of fact, he stated later that he didn't see it that way.> So, I beleive, I was not making an assumption. I cited the history of anti-Semtism in respect to Queen Isabella's expulsion of all jews in 1492 from Spainish lands to show that historically, jews have been persecuted for being jews. In nazi Germany, it was a crime to be a jew, punishable by death. Now I have not gone into that period of history yet, but when I do, then , perhaps, it will be known more why I consider the posts by Kiddo to "go over the line".
> LouA lot of people have been persecuted Lou. I'm sorry you feel it goes 'over the line', but it's scripture...BIBLE...and there's nothing you or I can do to change it.
Kiddo
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 22, 2002, at 14:44:41
In reply to it's just the only-one-right-road type..., posted by krazy kat on July 22, 2002, at 12:28:43
Krazy Kat,
You wrote that , that's what makes a belief!...
Now I understand that you are saying that Kiddo can continue with the christiandom dogma about the ...only one way... and right -wrong road dogma, and the jesus that Kiddo is referring to as the word dogma . Now Dr. Bob has said that those type of dogmas that tell others that they are "damned" are not permissible here. If they were permissible, then people could post Hitler's "Mien Kampf" here. They could claim that a book says this or that.
Himmler and Geobles' propaganda rhetoric could then also be posted here. Posters could then also post sites to white supremists web sites. If Dr. Bob did not flag Kiddo's post, then that is what could logically be the course that some could take here.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 22, 2002, at 14:48:48
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Tabitha's post » Lou Pilder, posted by kiddo on July 22, 2002, at 14:41:07
Kiddo,
i just reread Dr. Bob's post and he did say that your post could lead to , but not necessarily, to "anti" to jews and others.
Lou
Posted by kiddo on July 22, 2002, at 14:50:55
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Tabitha's post » Lou Pilder, posted by kiddo on July 22, 2002, at 14:41:07
Posted by krazy kat on July 22, 2002, at 14:53:41
In reply to Lou' response to Krazy Kat's post. » krazy kat , posted by Lou Pilder on July 22, 2002, at 14:44:41
If it doesn't matter which road one takes, then Lou's road posts are potentially offensive to others as well. His road to the crown of life is "just as bad" - it would have to be "the roadS to the crown of life" and then there could not be any definition of them or they would be exclusionary.
And, AGAIN, why is it that everything in the road posts comes from Revelations? Is no one else seeing this?
I wonder why Lou does not answer certain questions?
Posted by kiddo on July 22, 2002, at 14:56:05
In reply to again,, posted by krazy kat on July 22, 2002, at 14:53:41
> And, AGAIN, why is it that everything in the road posts comes from Revelations? Is no one else seeing this?
Absolutely. Amazing isn't it, that it's practically word for word too?
>
> I wonder why Lou does not answer certain questions?He did answer this one to me once, he said it wasn't scripture, but his experience...
Shall we go to the Faith board, KK? :-)
Kiddo
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 22, 2002, at 14:56:56
In reply to Where did he say he wouldn't *allow it here*??? (nm) » kiddo, posted by kiddo on July 22, 2002, at 14:50:55
Kiddo,
When an administrator issues an opinion and flags a post, he can not reverse it . So since he flagged your post, he will, in order to be fair, flag other similar posts that "damn" people.
Lou
Posted by kiddo on July 22, 2002, at 15:03:09
In reply to Re: Where did he say he wouldn't *allow it here*??? » kiddo, posted by Lou Pilder on July 22, 2002, at 14:56:56
> Kiddo,
> When an administrator issues an opinion and flags a post, he can not reverse it . So since he flagged your post, he will, in order to be fair, flag other similar posts that "damn" people.
> Lou
Ummmm,,,, where'd ya get that idea? He didn't *flag* my post for anything but saying one road, all others were wrong, and that was a mistake only in the fact that I didn't say it was my belief.....and I still hold that OPINION, just as it is your opinion/belief that you spoke with General Lee on that white horse.....Where did I 'damn' people? I didn't 'damn' anyone, I was QUOTING the Bible.....
Posted by krazy kat on July 22, 2002, at 15:31:33
In reply to Re: again,, posted by kiddo on July 22, 2002, at 14:56:05
I'm there right now if you want to post, but please help me keep my responses to a minimum - I don't want to get caught up in the Lou-a-thon (that is NOT uncivil, Dr. Bob - it is a Lou-a-thon and that's fine, but not for me anymore). Also, I need to make sure I don't get "addicted" to the site again...
- KK
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 22, 2002, at 18:34:52
In reply to and Dr Bob, posted by tabitha on July 22, 2002, at 12:22:23
> As I understand, one of the guidelines is to not make assumptions about others. Didn't Lou violate this when he called kiddo's posts anti-Semitic?
I already said I didn't think what she said was anti-Semitic, but I guess what Lou said is still an issue. (To digress a bit, I think there's some tension between administration and support. I can administrate better if people inform me about questionable posts, but that's inevitably somewhat accusatory.) Anyway, Lou did in fact say:
> your total thought, to me, was crossing the line and going into anti-Semitic rhetoric... your posts:
> 1. use defaming language toward the jewish leaders in the time of the jesus that you are referring to when you called the pharisees "hypocrites".
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020627/msgs/6468.htmlAnd in retrospect (sorry about missing this the first time), I do see that he was saying that her thinking *was* anti-Semitic (and not just that it could lead to anti-Semitism), which was both jumping to a conclusion and an accusation and therefore uncivil. Lou, please don't do that.
At the same time, he was responding to:
> > While I was on the Road, one asked the Rider about what degree of rightiousness is needed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The Rider said to me, " Unless your rightiousness exceeds the the rightiousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the Kingdom of Heaven."
> > Now the scribes and Pharisees were the most rightious people of Israel. They were the chief Rabbis. They obeyed the Law to the letter.
>
> The scribes and Pharisees said but they did not, they said, and preached, but they didn't live it. They said that Jesus cast out devils by the Beelzebub, the prince of the devils. These people were NOT the most righteous in all of Israel. They were hypocrites.
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/msgs/592.htmlI don't know anything about the scribes or the Pharisees, sorry, but if someone considers them righteous, I don't think it's so supportive to refer to them as hypocrites.
Bob
PS: OK, I looked into it a little, and of course it may not be so black-and-white:
> The Pharisees did not represent a political party or movement, and they were loosely organized. The Pharisees could well be defined first and foremost as a philosophy with many supporters.
> There were many sub-groups among the them, and most must be considered to be true and honest in their beliefs. But one group developed a hypocritical approach to Judaism, and became condemned both by scholars writing in the Talmud as well as the Jewish rebel Jesus.
> Christians have come to consider all Pharisees as hypocritical due to the stories in the Gospels, but this is seriously unfair to the majority of Pharisees.
> http://lexicorient.com/e.o/pharisees.htm
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 22, 2002, at 18:48:29
In reply to Re: Where did he say he wouldn't *allow it here*??? » Lou Pilder, posted by kiddo on July 22, 2002, at 15:03:09
> He didn't *flag* my post for anything but saying one road, all others were wrong, and that was a mistake only in the fact that I didn't say it was my belief.....and I still hold that OPINION...
>
> I was QUOTING the BibleSorry, I guess I wasn't clear. Your "mistake" was *not* stating it as fact rather than opinion. I don't think it's supportive even to state an opinion that there's only one "right" road. Please don't state opinions like that.
And coming from the Bible doesn't necessarily make it supportive, either.
Bob
Posted by Phil on July 22, 2002, at 19:09:56
In reply to Re: please be supportive » kiddo, posted by Dr. Bob on July 22, 2002, at 18:48:29
I don't think it's supportive even to state an opinion that there's only one "right" road. Please don't state opinions like that.
----------
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, Dr Bob.
It's beginning to get confusing. Are you saying a Christian can't say that Christ is the only way?
That's central to the religion.Phil
Posted by krazy kat on July 22, 2002, at 19:15:39
In reply to Re: please be supportive » kiddo, posted by Dr. Bob on July 22, 2002, at 18:48:29
Then Lou is also being unsupportive. His is The "Road" to the Crown of Life - one road.
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