![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 125. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on April 17, 2016, at 18:03:25
In reply to Lou's reply-the lost sheep » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on April 17, 2016, at 17:52:24
Were or are you depressed and didn't a medication cause tinnitis in your ears? Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 17, 2016, at 18:04:03
In reply to Re: Lou's response-koldkoldhrtz - don't hate you » Lou Pilder, posted by zonked on April 17, 2016, at 9:32:56
> Lou,
>
> You're in many ways a smart and talented guy, perhaps a poet and i am not being sarcastic. Why not take your keystrokes to somewhere that appreciates you, while staying on babble and being polite and respectful of others?
>
> Just a suggestion,
>
> -z
> > > > Wowzers. Um, is it possible to place someone on an involuntary hold (In California, we call that a "5150") based on IP address?
> > > >
> > > > Lou could be considered" gravely disabled "... He should be in the hospital. Perhaps he is genuine in what he says but perhaps just a troll.
> > > >
> > > > This board will never be ruined by anyone, and yes many of us are annoyed or worse. But where do we draw the line? Anyone? Dr. Bob?
> > >
> > > Friends,
> > > It is written here,[...perhaps he is a troll...].
> > > Today I started posting here again. And I'm right back seeing hatred once again. This is all allowed to infest your mind that could addict you to these drugs, and today you could start drugging once again.
> > > Lou
> > >
> > Friends,
> > The poster writes what could decrease the respect, regard and confidence in which I am held and induce hostile and disagreeable feelings and opinions concerning me.
> > I've tried so hard, my friends, to show you to your dreams. But your afraid that each thing I do is just some evil scheme. The hate here posted from the past keeps us so far apart. Why can't I free your doubtful minds and melt your cold, cold hearts.
> > Lou
> >
> Zonked,
> Many have been ridiculed and accused of being a troll. In the days of Noah, he was laughed at. And this Jesus of Nazareth was laughed at and accused like Noah of being in their day, a troll.
But Noah warned them to repent. And he built the ark. And this Jesus of Nazareth came into Jerusalem riding on a donkey.
The donkey was the luxury mode of transportation in that day. Like in our day, he had a Lincoln Continental, (and an El Dorado to). But the people told others to not listen to them. They did not come to get the praise of men. But they both brought the Spirit of Truth to make men free.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 17, 2016, at 21:48:00
In reply to Lou's reply-the lost sheep » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on April 17, 2016, at 17:52:24
> > Lou you and I have discussed this many times. Just be you and share your story. For instance what brought you to babble for the very first time? Did you need help or advise on a medication and come to see what others had to say.
> Phillipa and friends,
> Many of you already know that I am here to free the captives. The captives are the lost sheep of the house of deception. The captives will be made free by the Spirit of Truth. That Spirit is now here hovering above looking down to come down and cover the sheep that have gone astray with healing to deliver them from the bondage of addiction and depression.
> LouPhilllpa and friends,
The Spirit of Truth is hovering above and circling above watching the lost sheep. For there are ravening wolves seeking to devour them. The sheep have no shepherd and are deceived to believe a lie.
And in the encounter with the Rider on the white horse he said to me, "My sheep hear my voice. I have come to save that which was lost.
Now think. If a man has one hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go into the mountains and seek that which is gone astray?
And if so be that he find it, I say to you that he rejoices more of that sheep, than of the ninety-nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."
Lou
Posted by Hello321 on April 17, 2016, at 23:51:19
In reply to Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by Lou Pilder on April 17, 2016, at 21:48:00
Anyone else on here we should consider banning because their message goes against us in our search for more pills? I don't wanna eat better or do anything else that might make my life better, I want more pills! Something with a neat, scientific sounding name would be preferable. They say exercise could help improve mood, but the only way I'm doing that is if "science" could like, put exercise in a pill for me. And anyone who realizes their life was screwed by taking these pills, well, let's pretend their experience never happened because it might impede us on our search for more pills!
Posted by SLS on April 18, 2016, at 6:11:52
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by Hello321 on April 17, 2016, at 23:51:19
> Anyone else on here we should consider banning because their message goes against us in our search for more pills? I don't wanna eat better or do anything else that might make my life better, I want more pills! Something with a neat, scientific sounding name would be preferable. They say exercise could help improve mood, but the only way I'm doing that is if "science" could like, put exercise in a pill for me. And anyone who realizes their life was screwed by taking these pills, well, let's pretend their experience never happened because it might impede us on our search for more pills!
Did pills ever work for you? If not, have you ever entertained the notion that you don't have an illness that pills are designed to treat?
Mr. Pilder exaggerates and overgeneralizes and goes out of his way to scare people using misinformation and disinformation, as is often presented by book-writing, cherry-picking charlatans who refuse to use science as a method of helping people. Which antidepressants do you feel have never greatly improved someone's affective disorder? By the way, as much as eating better and exercising (anaerobic and aerobic) more has undoubtedly improved my overall health, they haven't improved in anyway my crippling bipolar depression. I suppose I should rail against Nautilus and Nordic Track as being hoaxes.
Pills work.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 18, 2016, at 6:15:14
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by SLS on April 18, 2016, at 6:11:52
I forgot to change the subject line to excise Lou's name. Too much litter.
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 18, 2016, at 6:57:15
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by Hello321 on April 17, 2016, at 23:51:19
Do dou know how hard it is to exercise when you are depressed??
how many prople dont exercise? Pretty much all of them. And as far as i am concerned not all of them are depressed.
So relax.
Posted by J Kelly on April 18, 2016, at 8:31:39
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by Hello321 on April 17, 2016, at 23:51:19
> I don't wanna eat better or do anything else that might make my life better, I want more pills!
I like you. But I cant even dignify this post with a response.
Jade
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 18, 2016, at 9:07:27
In reply to Re: Hello 321, posted by J Kelly on April 18, 2016, at 8:31:39
I have been there myself, thinking like that.
Its easy to do.
Posted by J Kelly on April 18, 2016, at 9:32:18
In reply to Re: Hello 321, posted by Lamdage22 on April 18, 2016, at 9:07:27
> I have been there myself, thinking like that.
>
> Its easy to do.Did you read the whole post? Which part do you relate to?
Posted by J Kelly on April 18, 2016, at 9:49:04
In reply to Re: Hello 321, posted by Lamdage22 on April 18, 2016, at 9:07:27
> I have been there myself, thinking like that.
>
> Its easy to do.I'm very offended at the notion that I'm just here to facilitate shoving pills down my throat willy nilly. I've tried EVERYTHING in my arsenal to get well to no avail. Exercise, diets, sleep hygiene, on and on and on. I am being reasonably cautious with regards to my med mngmt. My ONLY real remissions from disabling depression/anxiety have come from psych meds. Without them I am close to suicidal. So pardon me for wanting to get well.
Sorry Lamdage, this was not aimed at you. Just venting.
Jade
Posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 10:32:54
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by SLS on April 18, 2016, at 6:11:52
> > Anyone else on here we should consider banning because their message goes against us in our search for more pills? I don't wanna eat better or do anything else that might make my life better, I want more pills! Something with a neat, scientific sounding name would be preferable. They say exercise could help improve mood, but the only way I'm doing that is if "science" could like, put exercise in a pill for me. And anyone who realizes their life was screwed by taking these pills, well, let's pretend their experience never happened because it might impede us on our search for more pills!
>
> Did pills ever work for you? If not, have you ever entertained the notion that you don't have an illness that pills are designed to treat?
>
> Mr. Pilder exaggerates and overgeneralizes and goes out of his way to scare people using misinformation and disinformation, as is often presented by book-writing, cherry-picking charlatans who refuse to use science as a method of helping people. Which antidepressants do you feel have never greatly improved someone's affective disorder? By the way, as much as eating better and exercising (anaerobic and aerobic) more has undoubtedly improved my overall health, they haven't improved in anyway my crippling bipolar depression. I suppose I should rail against Nautilus and Nordic Track as being hoaxes.
>
> Pills work.
>
>
At the least Lou doesn't ignore the fact that there's more out there that can help than just pills. I know what treatment resistance feels like. And because of it, my mind has been opened to the fact that there are so many possibilities out there, that have nothing to do with taking another pill. Possibilities that "science" backs. Ways that can help that are much less likely to be damaging than another pill. Sure, this is a medication forum. But when you have sick people coming here for help, who only know about the world of psychiatric treatments, and are seeking help from others who only point them to more psychiatric meds, they are closed off from so much more. I read about science often. I don't just read magazine articles about science. I like to get into the details as much as possible. I dont claim to know everything, but neither do the "experts". And what many do, is avoid the details as much as possible. What do we get? More pain and suffering. More people who get stuck.There is no science behind any idea that an antidepressant corrects any dysfunction in the brain. No science, Scott. At the end of the day all we know is that a certain amount of folks took a certain chemical and it benefitted their well-being in one way or another. But we also know just as well that this chemical has had detrimental effects on the well-being of others. Then we ignore that lives have been ruined by these chemicals. These chemicals have contributed to suicides. We tell ourselves there's no way for these chemicals to cause someone to feel and possibly act homicidal. When anyone ignores all this, then they themselves also should be ignored. And they ARE being ignored. Because all they're shown is the wonderful world of psychiatric pills. They hardly know any better. And if they don't kill themselves because of direct effects of a pill, then they kill themselves because no pill has helped.
When you only know and present a small part of what humans know about improving ones health. Then you only give ohers a small chance at getting better. Lou's approach is hardly different from anyone elses on sites like this. He's presenting what he knows.
Posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 10:36:34
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 10:32:54
One thing Lou is 100% right about is that every time some starts taking a psychiatric pills, they're putting their life and the lives of others at risk.
Posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 10:46:51
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 10:32:54
I simply feel like I'm letting someone down, and possibly doing more harm than good, when I present myself as trying to be helpful, and all I tell them is "maybe you should try this pill". Or shock therapy. Or what ever else psychiatry presents to the public as treatments backed by " science".
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 18, 2016, at 10:58:30
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 10:46:51
I am pretty sure that my surroundings are FAR better off with me being on pills. Its not perfect, but its an improvement.
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 18, 2016, at 11:02:35
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 10:46:51
I think its impossible to be wrong about everything.
Jade, i was talking to Hello123 about exercise.
If i had ANY drive to do it, i sure would do exercise. Exercise is powerful, but it demands a certain standard of mood and drive.
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 18, 2016, at 11:06:45
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by Lamdage22 on April 18, 2016, at 10:58:30
I am not on pills forever if they dont provide relief. But for the time being, i am COMPLETELY paranoid without Neuroleptics. I reduce them only when i can.
Venlafaxine is certainly very helpful.
Its so easy to see conspiracies everywhere. I have been there myself.
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 18, 2016, at 11:07:49
In reply to Re: Hello 321 » Lamdage22, posted by J Kelly on April 18, 2016, at 9:32:18
> I have been there myself, thinking like that.
>
> Its easy to do.Did you read the whole post? Which part do you relate to?
Jade, i meant Hello123!!
Posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 11:30:08
In reply to Relax, posted by Lamdage22 on April 18, 2016, at 11:06:45
> Its so easy to see conspiracies everywhere. I have been there myself.
>
>What conspiracies is someone seeing? Are you referring to me suggesting there's more help out there than pills? That pills can cause severe harm? Please, educate yourself. I've realized today more than ever that knowledge is power. Because of this I'm able to get myself up and go for a walk in the park on such a nice day today. If you know better than me, where's your energy? Where's your motivation? Until a few weeks ago when I had to stop testing out a new diet because of stomach problems, I had the desire and motivation to almost completely change my diet. Knowledge that there's more help out there than pills, that the typical American way of life can be very damaging to ones health is what gives me motivation.
Anyways, I'm headed to the track at my local park for a bit of exercise. I will TTYL.
Posted by Phillipa on April 18, 2016, at 11:52:28
In reply to Re: Relax, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 11:30:08
So not just psychiatric meds but also meds for weight reduction? In your case. Why unless eating too much did you need them. And then there is surgery that is even more dangerous. Cholesterol meds are dangerous hence won't take them and don't need them. At age 70 ride 6 miles almost daily on bike up and down hills, walk the dogs. So how come I'm anxious. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on April 18, 2016, at 12:46:06
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 10:32:54
> > > Anyone else on here we should consider banning because their message goes against us in our search for more pills? I don't wanna eat better or do anything else that might make my life better, I want more pills! Something with a neat, scientific sounding name would be preferable. They say exercise could help improve mood, but the only way I'm doing that is if "science" could like, put exercise in a pill for me. And anyone who realizes their life was screwed by taking these pills, well, let's pretend their experience never happened because it might impede us on our search for more pills!
> >
> > Did pills ever work for you? If not, have you ever entertained the notion that you don't have an illness that pills are designed to treat?
> >
> > Mr. Pilder exaggerates and overgeneralizes and goes out of his way to scare people using misinformation and disinformation, as is often presented by book-writing, cherry-picking charlatans who refuse to use science as a method of helping people. Which antidepressants do you feel have never greatly improved someone's affective disorder? By the way, as much as eating better and exercising (anaerobic and aerobic) more has undoubtedly improved my overall health, they haven't improved in anyway my crippling bipolar depression. I suppose I should rail against Nautilus and Nordic Track as being hoaxes.
> >
> > Pills work.
> >
> >
> At the least Lou doesn't ignore the fact that there's more out there that can help than just pills.Name one person here who does. Your assertion is insulting.
> I know what treatment resistance feels like. And because of it, my mind has been opened to the fact that there are so many possibilities out there, that have nothing to do with taking another pill.
Me, too. What do you really know about me and my 34 years of treatment history? Very little. Too little to include me in your insulting remarks.
> Possibilities that "science" backs. Ways that can help that are much less likely to be damaging than another pill. Sure, this is a medication forum. But when you have sick people coming here for help, who only know about the world of psychiatric treatments, and are seeking help from others who only point them to more psychiatric meds, they are closed off from so much more. I read about science often. I don't just read magazine articles about science. I like to get into the details as much as possible. I dont claim to know everything, but neither do the "experts". And what many do, is avoid the details as much as possible. What do we get? More pain and suffering. More people who get stuck.
You remain ignorant (not meant as a pejorative) to the collective experiences of those who post here. I suspect you are also ignorant of just how much the scientists already know. Do you think that science hasn't already looked at exercise and diet scientifically as treatments or adjunct therapeutics for depression?
> There is no science behind any idea that an antidepressant corrects any dysfunction in the brain.More ignorance (not meant as a pejorative).
Because of your ignorance, I must truncate any opining I had planned to do.
I hope that my assertion of your ignorance doesn't insult you any more than your assertions of mine.
- Scott
Posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 14:00:49
In reply to Re: Relax » Hello321, posted by Phillipa on April 18, 2016, at 11:52:28
Phillipa, I didn't change my diet for weight reduction. I changed it in an attempt to benefit my overall well-being, and especially my emotional well-being. I've known a pharmacist at a compounding
pharmacy who is very into improving health in natural ways. Occasionally we would talk about ways I can get to feeling better, and he would often focusing on diet. How to eat. He would say to stop eating certain things. And I'd think, "that's a big part of my regular diet, it would be too hard". Then a couple of months ago it just hit me, if I'm not " putting good in", why should I expect good out? I had been thinking I eat decent enough. But now I realize, what if eating decent isn't good enough. I mean, if I'm eating decent, why do I feel so crappy? So I set out to try educating myself on just how ones diet affects their well-being. How it affects their brain. I still eat far from perfect, but I'm sure my diet is benefitting me far more than the way I was eating a couple of months ago.Some months ago my mindset about foods started to change a bit after I watched this video that I've posted on babble in the past.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM
Then I found this video a few weeks later and it really caught my eye:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ceFyF9px20Y
He's, they're mainly about the terrible effects sugar has on the body. And how it dysrupts natural processes in our body, leading to diabetes. To obesity. To just bad health in general, and not really about mental health.
But I started getting really interested. Reading more articles on sugar. Then I stumbled upon the book "Grain Brain" at Barnes & Noble, that details the negative effects of our carbohydrate filled diets on our mental health. It focuses a lot on sugar and grains. All carbs are sugar. Some may digest slower than others, like white rice compared to brown rice. But they still affect our brain like sugar.
I could type all day on this, but Grain Brain makes the case that humans thousands of years ago survived mostly on fat, meat, and greens. And that today's carb rich diet, low fat diet goes against how our ancestors genes adapted. Leading to today's health problems. Sure there is much debate in anything that's far from the norm. We have it put into our minds that fats, especially saturated fats like in beef and milk, are bad. But our brains are made mostly of fat. Our brains thrive on a high healthy fat diet. And there seems to much debate about whether most types of fat are good. But I do believe it's fully agreed on that artificial trans fats are bad.
Anyways, like I said, there is a lot of debate about things like this. And I'd recommend reading "Grain Brain" and another book called "Brain Maker". Grain Brain was a big seller when it came out and is really interesting to me. But like it's said, knowledge is power. Just educate yourself. Try to gain the knowledge, the power, to improve your life and put it to good use. The more I understand the details on how our diet affects our well-being, the more not motivated I get to improve it.
We hear Omega 3 fats in wild fish like salmon can improve our brain function. But there's much more in our diet that can be adjusted to improve our brain function. Improved brain function of course leads to better mental health.
Posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 14:23:19
In reply to Re: Science. » Hello321, posted by SLS on April 18, 2016, at 12:46:06
> > > Mr. Pilder exaggerates and ove
> You remain ignorant (not meant as a pejorative) to the collective experiences of those who post here. I suspect you are also ignorant of just how much the scientists already know. Do you think that science hasn't already looked at exercise and diet scientifically as treatments or adjunct therapeutics for depression?
>
> > There is no science behind any idea that an antidepressant corrects any dysfunction in the brain.
>
> More ignorance (not meant as a pejorative).
>
> Because of your ignorance, I must truncate any opining I had planned to do.
>
> I hope that my assertion of your ignorance doesn't insult you any more than your assertions of mine.
>
>
> - ScottI am I deed ignorant of the pretty much wll of yhe life experiences of of Users on psychobabble. But I'm not ignorant of the fact that on mental health treatment forums like this, the typical thinking is "If only we could find the right pill". There is very little talk about how our diet affects our brain function and therefore our mental health. Even when there is so much garbage is in the diet of most people.
Scott, I'm aware that scientific knowledge about the brain is continuously advancing. But how long will it take for today's leading knowledge to be put into regular clinical use? Today we are still focusing on artificial ways to increase certain neurotransmitters, just like we're when the first MAOI came out. The main advantage reuptake inhibitors have is they lack the possibility of death if one were to eat the wrong food while taking them. Many even agree old MAOI's help better than newer reuptake inhibitors.
Now, if it is easier for you to sit and wait for the best science to eventually be put into good use and for it to benefit you, that it is too difficult for you to think out of box that psychiatry stays in and put more focus on other areas of your life that can be improved, that may just lead to your mental health improving, then I really am sorry.
If one keeps doing what they've always done, they will always what they've always gotten. Think beyond meds. Sit back and look at what can be improved about your lifestyle. Rarely is achieving the best things in life easy to achieve, but it sure is worth it. Just do your best. Often doing your best is far removed from ones daily life. And help others do their best. Knowledge is power. Gaining knowledge can give you the power to achieve your best. Michael Jordan did his best when he was a less experienced, less knowledgeable player. But as he gained knowledge of the game, his best became even better.
Posted by Tomatheus on April 18, 2016, at 15:01:47
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 10:32:54
Hello321,
There is a lot that you've written here that I quite strongly agree with. I think that you're absolutely right that there are a number of non-pill-based treatment interventions, some of which are evidence based, that people with mental health conditions find helpful when it comes to reducing symptoms, minimizing the impact of symptoms, improving functional outcomes, promoting overall health, or otherwise living as well as possible despite having a mental health condition. Helpful interventions for a mental health condition could include pills (both pharmaceuticals and dietary supplements), talk therapies, psychological self-help interventions, peer support, exercise, dietary modifications, making other choices that promote improved overall health, meditation, brain-training exercises, and support from friends and family members. And this list that I've put together is far from complete. Clearly, not everybody benefits from all of the treatment interventions that I've listed. There is a great deal of variability in how different individuals with mental health conditions respond to each treatment intervention that I identified, and I think that the exact combination of treatment interventions that will be most effective in helping to manage a mental health condition will likely be quite different not only from one individual to the next but also within the same individual as both symptoms and circumstances change.
Speaking for myself, I do take pills, and at this point in time, all of them are dietary supplements. I follow an orthomolecular-based treatment protocol, and I consider this to be the foundation of my treatment. As far as pharmaceuticals are concerned, I consider that to be an approach to treatment that I put a great deal of time and effort into in hopes that one or more medications would contribute positively to my long-term mental well being. Unfortunately, that hasn't seemed to happen, and I've moved on to try other approaches to treatment that do stand at least a chance of improving my long-term mental well being and helping me to achieve my goal of being as close to the person that I'd like to be as possible. As I've said, following an orthomolecular-based approach to reducing the symptoms of my mental health condition is the foundation of my treatment at this point in time. Without this approach, my symptoms are too severe for me to be able to make much use of the benefits of other treatment interventions. In my case, addressing the biological components of my mental health condition as they were identified by testing that was done at an orthomolecular treatment center is absolutely necessary to make any meaningful application of psychological self-help strategies and healthy lifestyle choices possible. But the orthomolecular-based treatment protocol that I follow is still only the foundation of my treatment. It's most certainly not the only aspect of my treatment. I think that when the capacity to take meaningful action toward living a healthy lifestyle, toward applying psychological coping mechanisms and other psychological strategies, and toward achieving some of the bigger goals we have in life is there, we ought to do all of these things to the fullest extent possible. To me, this is what recovering from a mental health condition is all about. Relieving symptoms is a first step, but once there is an adequate amount of symptom relief, applying the knowledge that we've gained about psychology, general health, and other aspects of living and taking action to live our lives in a way that's as consistent as possible with our values and ideals is essential. Pills, if effective, should boost our chances of doing these things, but they're not going to actually do the work for us.
I also think that those of us with mental health conditions have some valid reasons to be dissatisfied with the mental health system and should be taking action to improve it. One thing that journalist Robert Whitaker (2010) pointed out in his book "Anatomy of an Epidemic" that greatly concerns me is that more Americans that ever before seem to be disabled due to a mental health condition, at least judging from the Social Security Administration reports that Whitaker cited in his book. Now, I'm not saying that modern mental health treatments aren't effective for anybody, but the fact that the number of Americans receiving disability benefits for reasons related to mental health is higher than it's ever been, despite the fact that more mental health treatments are available and also more accessible than ever before, calls into question just how effective medications, talk therapies, and other mental health treatments that are commonly used actually are. I tend not to agree with the idea that Whitaker seemed to put forward, which suggests that medication use is generally causing an overall worsening in the outcomes of those living with mental health conditions. In some cases, yes, I do think that medication use is leading to worse outcomes, but there are other factors to consider.
One such factor is the lack of improved of efficacy of the first-line medication treatments that are used for mood disorders today over the first-line medications that were used for the same conditions 40 years ago. Lithium has basically been replaced as a first-line medication treatment for bipolar disorder by anticonvulsants and antipsychotics, even though lithium is still generally regarded as being more effective than antipsychotics and also as effective or more effective than anticonvlusants (Bowden, 2000). Evidence seems to suggest that SSRI antidepressants are about as effective as in the treatment of unipolar depression as tricyclic antidepressants are, although there are some data to suggest that the tricyclics might be more effective in the inpatient treatment of unipolar depression (Anderson, 2000). As far as monoamine oxidase inhibitors are concerned, I'm not sure about the extent to which they've been compared with SSRIs as far as efficacy is concerned, but the fact that moclobemide (a reversible monoamine oxidase A inhibitor) has been found to be somewhat less effective than Nardil and Parnate despite being comparable to the SSRIs as far as efficacy is concerned (Lotufo-Neto et al., 1999) would point toward the possibility that the MAOIs might be more effective than SSRIs. Or at least they might have been more effective, before their formulations were changed. Now, with some anecdotal reports having come in suggesting that the reformulated version of Nardil might be less effective and/or less tolerable for some individuals than the original version was, and with one case report (Malen, 1992) suggesting that the current version of Parnate also might not perform as well as the original version of the medication, it's not even clear if Nardil and Parnate are as effective as they used to be. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration, in my opinion, has not taken the complaints from those who've taken Nardil seriously enough, just as they didn't take the complaints about a generic version of Wellbutrin seriously enough when they first started coming in. Utlimately, though, the FDA did issue statements indicating that some generic versions of Wellbutrin are indeed not therapeutically equivalent to the brand-name version of the medication.
What I'm trying to get at with the information that I'm putting out here is that there are a number of legitimate reasons to be dissatisfied with the mental health system as it exists currently. Although many are helped to a significant degree by the mental health treatments that are currently available, some are not helped by these treatments, and some even experience a deterioration in their condition due to some treatments that are used. When you say things like "we ignore that lives have been ruined by these chemicals," and "[w]e tell ourselves there's no way for these chemicals to cause someone to feel and possibly act homicidal," I'm not sure who you're referring to when you say "we," because I acknowledge that psychiatric medications have affected some individuals who've taken them in detrimental ways, including by contributing to increased homicidal thinking and actions in what's probably a small minority of cases. But I think that you're right that the detrimental effects of psychiatric medications and all treatments used in medicine shouldn't be ignored.
Where I think you're wrong is in your statement that "[t]here is no science behind any idea that an antidepressant corrects any dysfunction in the brain." Monoamine oxidase A levels have been found to be, on average, 34 percent higher in the brains of patients with major depressive disorder in comparison to the brains of healthy control participants (Meyer et al., 2006). Monoamine oxidase inhibiting antidepressants have clearly demonstrated an ability to inhibit the MAO-A enzyme, so to state that there is no science behind the idea that any antidepressant can "correct" any chemical dysfunction in the brain is inaccurate. Just because many who identify as being part of the anti-psychiatry movement say that something is true doesn't mean that it is. Those who consider themselves to be part of the anti-psychiatry movement sometimes make some valid critiques of psychiatry, and I think that those critiques ought to be taken seriously and ought to lead to change wherever they can. However, if many with ideas that might be considered to be critical of psychiatry continue to say that mental health conditions are never in any way biological, that psychiatric medications are never beneficial to those who take them, that mental illness doesn't exist, or that other blatant inaccuracies ought to be regarded as true, they're only going to hurt the credibility of those who make critiques of psychiatry that actually are valid.
Tomatheus
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REFERENCES
Anderson, I.M. (2000). Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors versus tricyclic antidepressants: A meta-analysis of efficacy and tolerability. Journal of Affective Disorders, 58, 19-36. Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10760555
Bowden, C.L. (2000). Efficacy of lithium in mania and maintenance therapy of bipolar disorder. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, 61 Suppl 9, 35-40. Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10826659
Lotufo-Neto, F., Trivedi, M., & Thase, M.E. (1999). Meta-analysis of the reversible inhibitors of monoamine oxidase type a moclobemide and brofaromine for the treatment of depression. Neuropsychopharmacology, 20, 226-247. Article: http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v20/n3/full/1395258a.html
Malen, D.G. (1992). Parnate formulation change. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, 53, 328-329. Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1517197
Meyer, J.H., Ginovart, N., Boovariwala, A., Sagrati, S., Hussey, D., Garcia, A., et al. (2006). Elevated monoamine oxidase a levels in the brain: An explanation for the monoamine imbalance of major depression. Archives of General Psychiatry, 63, 1209-1216. Article: http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=668227
Whitaker, R. (2010). Anatomy of an epidemic: Magic bullets, psychiatric drugs, and the astonishing rise of mental illness in America. New York: Broadway Paperbacks.
Posted by Tabitha on April 18, 2016, at 18:31:05
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by SLS on April 18, 2016, at 6:11:52
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