![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 52 to 76 of 106. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on September 21, 2015, at 8:53:43
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by Hello321 on September 21, 2015, at 7:32:41
I find your verbiage to be less than respectful.
I've been in the "game" for over 30 years. Please don't intimate that I am somehow naive. You seem to believe that you have a monopoly on some truth. You don't. I have worked as a patient. I have worked as a research assistant to doctors. I have been a research patient at the NIMH. I researched and began writing a paper that was a critique of FDA practices 30 years ago. I have been seen by doctors from major university hospitals. I was one of the first to have a PET scan performed on his brain. I have tried almost 10 experimental drugs that you will never know about. I have followed compounds developed from synthesis to FDA approval. Family members work for pharmaceutical companies in their clinical trials and drug development divisions. There's more, but that should be enough. I've done a lot of reading and picked a lot of brains along the way. I may not be as smart as you, but I might be more experienced than you. I wouldn't know.
I pleaded with members of the Psycho-Babble community in 2000 that they become aware of the potential of Prozac and other drugs to induce suicidal states. Your epiphanies are new for you, but not for me. You assume too much about the people here; that they are somehow "behind" you in knowledge and perspective. It looks to me like the opposite is true. Most of us do indeed recognize the capacities of drugs to make things worse instead of better. My illness is so bad, that I would drink elephant piss with a beer chaser if it meant being cured.
With all due respect, you don't know what I know - and what I don't know.
Don't be so judgmental of the capacity of others to make brilliant observations and well-informed, insightful decisions.
- Scott
Posted by Hello321 on September 21, 2015, at 14:04:32
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes? » Hello321, posted by SLS on September 21, 2015, at 8:53:43
> I find your verbiage to be less than respectful.
Thats unfortunate
>
> I've been in the "game" for over 30 years. Please don't intimate that I am somehow naive.There are people in many positions that that have been in these positions for many years and youd expect them to understand the full picture of the best protocols when it comes to their line of work.
One particular field i can think of is the politician. Have you ever thought your ideas were better thaan a certain longtime politicians when dealing with a specific situation?You seem to believe that you have a monopoly on some truth. You dont.
Neither do you.
>
You assume too much about the people here; tat they are somehow "behind" you in knowledge and perspective.I dont believe that they are behind me at all on this.
>
> With all due respect, you don't know what I know - and what I don't know.
>
I can say the same to you.I'll just repeat what i said in my last post. If a unique treatment that seems very promising in helping your situation is released, but upon taking it you experience a massive decrease in your mental health. And you were not at all informed about such a terrible reaction being a possible result of the treatment, would youu feel an injustice occured? That you were wronged and deserving of compensation?
Or if a someone took prozac and became homicidal to the point they took the life of someone you care very much about, Would you be okay with that?
And realize you just have to accept it for the greater good?You should be. After all the thoughts you posted, you have no right to object if a situation like either of these occur. Youd deserve no compensation and no special access to anything that might help you deal with such events. You would need to realize that these are simply unfortunate events that happened to you or a loved one, and that these have to occur as collateral damage because of what the authorities perceive is the greater good. Youd deserve to just be left behind if you are going to continue demanding we not be made fully aware of the worst possible negative effects.
If for some reason you think youd be cool with these events right now, im sure youd be singing a different tune if they did actually happen to you.
Posted by Hello321 on September 21, 2015, at 15:32:02
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by Hello321 on September 21, 2015, at 14:04:32
If youd care to, list some "professionals" with extensive careers that you still feel you are more knowledgeable on certain fundamental topics than that they are involved in on a regular basis.
Certain psychiatrist, maybe? An MD? Politicians? certain people in charge at the FDA? EPA? You might feel that increasing fuel mileage and safety standards is a bad idea because it would make new cars more unaffordable for those with a lower income. And that man-made global climate change is a myth, with all the laws/regulations put in place by them being unnecessary or even harmful to the public. Maybe you feel the US should keep its nose out of the business of other nations more, even while there are top level army generals who think the opposite? Maybe you think abortion in certain/most/all cases is wrong, while the mother with her unique situation in life sees it as being for the best. I could go on.
Im sure you have ideas on certain controversial topics that go against the ideas of many with extensive careers dealing with these topics. So no, a history of dealing with these things doesnt always equate to having the best ideas.
Posted by SLS on September 21, 2015, at 16:01:00
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by Hello321 on September 21, 2015, at 14:04:32
> Anyway, it has just gotten too tiresome for me to continue discussing mental health topiics with those who still have their child-like innocence
Yes. I have reached the same conclusion about those who still have their pathological need to be "right" about everything.
The next time you feel an unsurmountable urge to tell me or others what I'm thinking or what my doctor has said to me, try hard not to betray your child-like innocence. The irony no longer amuses me.
My unsolicited advice to you is to spend more time worrying about yourself and the ECT you are about to have. You never investigated what different methods and protocols were available. You haven't even asked your doctors which ones they have planned for you.
Irony.
- Scott
Posted by baseball55 on September 21, 2015, at 20:53:18
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by Hello321 on September 20, 2015, at 19:56:59
> Ive gone over this enough. Just read the posts in the tbread to discover why i typed that. It might require taking all of it into account and not just certain parts. If you already did that, then theres no point in me typing anything else concerning those statements and you might just have to wait for those in positions of authority, like the FDA, to let you know how to feel about those statements. or i giess you already know how you feel. Just stick.with that.
>
> Dont know any better way to put it. But... yah.All I'm saying is this is based on one study in Sweden. Surely, the result, like all results of research, need to be replicated.
Posted by baseball55 on September 21, 2015, at 20:57:49
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by Hello321 on September 20, 2015, at 19:56:59
Another problem with this study is that it's difficult to tell whether these results are significant. For example, if the prevalence of violent crime is 0.1% and that rises while on SSRIs to 0.119%, is that significant, given sample size and low frequency to start with?
There is also the question of causality. Are the young people on SSRI ON SSRIs because of an increase in irritability, anger and other, non-typical presentations of depression? If so, would the incidence of crime be EVEN HIGHER if they were not given SSRI's?
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 21, 2015, at 21:10:18
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes? » Hello321, posted by SLS on September 21, 2015, at 8:53:43
> I find your verbiage to be less than respectful.
>
> I've been in the "game" for over 30 years. Please don't intimate that I am somehow naive. You seem to believe that you have a monopoly on some truth. You don't. I have worked as a patient. I have worked as a research assistant to doctors. I have been a research patient at the NIMH. I researched and began writing a paper that was a critique of FDA practices 30 years ago. I have been seen by doctors from major university hospitals. I was one of the first to have a PET scan performed on his brain. I have tried almost 10 experimental drugs that you will never know about. I have followed compounds developed from synthesis to FDA approval. Family members work for pharmaceutical companies in their clinical trials and drug development divisions. There's more, but that should be enough. I've done a lot of reading and picked a lot of brains along the way. I may not be as smart as you, but I might be more experienced than you. I wouldn't know.
>
> I pleaded with members of the Psycho-Babble community in 2000 that they become aware of the potential of Prozac and other drugs to induce suicidal states. Your epiphanies are new for you, but not for me. You assume too much about the people here; that they are somehow "behind" you in knowledge and perspective. It looks to me like the opposite is true. Most of us do indeed recognize the capacities of drugs to make things worse instead of better. My illness is so bad, that I would drink elephant piss with a beer chaser if it meant being cured.
>
> With all due respect, you don't know what I know - and what I don't know.
>
> Don't be so judgmental of the capacity of others to make brilliant observations and well-informed, insightful decisions.
>
>
> - ScottScott,
You wrote that your condition is so bad that you would drink elephant urine if it would cure you.
My request is;
Would you seek first The Kingdom of God if that could cure you?
Lou
Posted by SLS on September 22, 2015, at 0:06:34
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by baseball55 on September 21, 2015, at 20:57:49
> There is also the question of causality. Are the young people on SSRI ON SSRIs because of an increase in irritability, anger and other, non-typical presentations of depression? If so, would the incidence of crime be EVEN HIGHER if they were not given SSRI's?
Yes. I was thinking that as well, but I haven't looked at the study closely enough. It certainly deserves attention. I like the way subject is treated by the authors. I wish I had a better understanding of statistics.
I think the following quote indicates the authors' desire to maintain objectivity:
"These findings show an association between SSRIs and violent crime that varies by age group. They cannot, however, prove that taking SSRIs actually causes an increase in violent crime among young people because the analytical approach used does not fully account for time-varying risk factors such as symptom severity or alcohol misuse that might affect an individuals risk of committing a violent crime (residual confounding). In addition, some people who committed a violent crime might have subsequently taken SSRIs to cope with the anxiety and stress of arrest (reverse causation). The lack of a significant association between SSRIs and violent crime among most people taking SSRIs is reassuring; the association between violent crimes and SSRIs among individuals younger than 25 years is worrying. However, this finding needs confirming in studies with other designs undertaken in other settings. If confirmed, warnings about the increased risk of violent behavior among young people when being treated with SSRIs might be needed. But, note the researchers, it might be inappropriate to restrict the use of SSRIs in this age group because increases in adverse outcomes associated with poorly treated depression, such as suicide, might outweigh the public health benefit accruing from decreases in violence."
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 22, 2015, at 0:08:30
In reply to Lou's request-altheesethingswilbeaddedtuyu » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on September 21, 2015, at 21:10:18
Posted by SLS on September 22, 2015, at 0:22:31
In reply to Lou's request-altheesethingswilbeaddedtuyu » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on September 21, 2015, at 21:10:18
I do appreciate your honest concern for my welfare.
Thank you.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 22, 2015, at 6:27:55
In reply to I already found it. Thank you. (nm) » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on September 22, 2015, at 0:08:30
Scott,
I am unsure what you are wanting to mean. If you could post answers to the following, then I could respond accordingly.
A. When did you find The Kingdom of God?
B. Which God was the King of that Kingdom?
C. Did you stay in that Kingdom?
D. If there was a different Kingdom that you could be in that could enable you to be delivered from the realm of misery that you are in that you describe here,(I do not want to use the word "cure" here), and your quest to find a chemical solution to your suffering that you describe here could be over, would you enter that Kingdom?
Lou
Posted by SLS on September 22, 2015, at 6:44:14
In reply to Lou's reply-a different Kingdom » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on September 22, 2015, at 6:27:55
Redirected to:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20130321/msgs/1082803.html
Posted by hello321 on September 22, 2015, at 12:55:16
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes? » Hello321, posted by SLS on September 21, 2015, at 16:01:00
> > Anyway, it has just gotten too tiresome for me to continue discussing mental health topiics with those who still have their child-like innocence
>
> Yes. I have reached the same conclusion about those who still have their pathological need to be "right" about everything.
>
> The next time you feel an unsurmountable urge to tell me or others what I'm thinking or what my doctor has said to me, try hard not to betray your child-like innocence. The irony no longer amuses me.
>
> My unsolicited advice to you is to spend more time worrying about yourself and the ECT you are about to have. You never investigated what different methods and protocols were available. You haven't even asked your doctors which ones they have planned for you.
>
> Irony.
>
>
> -If any of your advice you give out is worth having, should you should take it as well?
Concerning ECT, I researched the heck out of it before my first round of treatments about a year ago. And I'm receiving the same treatments I benefited from then. I know this because this is what the ECT doc and i agreed on. I don't remember exactly the type of ECT I'm receiving because my memory isnt that great (not because of the ECT tho) The irony you say exists in my approach to receiving ECT or any treatment doesn't exist. It is true I'm much more apathetic today with how I seek treatment. I used to be always searching for something better out there, but I do this less often. You've tried to catch me making ironic states throughout this thread that just don't exist, bro. Can you not believe someone would demand more than run of the mill mental health"care"?
Also, I don't even look for a psychiatrist to inform me on the most important information anymore. It would be a lost cause if I did. I just inform myself instead.
Have a nice day, Scott.
Posted by Hello321 on September 22, 2015, at 13:17:02
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes? » Hello321, posted by SLS on September 20, 2015, at 18:28:12
And i just gotta say this. With regards to anyone thinking they have a "monopoly on the truth". Who was it that wrote about their history in attempt to show that their thoughts should be held in higher regard because of this? It wasnt me... lol 😄
But then some/most? Have our criticisms of the way our president does his job, even tho we're fully aware he is way more experienced. Is it okay that those with little or no experience criticise him? If you dont like this example, many others exist.
Posted by hello321 on September 22, 2015, at 18:07:12
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by baseball55 on September 21, 2015, at 20:57:49
Baseball, the things I write about often take into account my experience. This is only an sectoral experience, but I have experienced homicidal thoughts induced by a few psychiatric treatment. I feel like these thoughts I felt were the result of more intense helpless emotions the treatment caused. Basically a worsening of depression caused by treatment.
You see it on the news often, more crimes being committed in cities with a high poverty rate. Poverty can obviously lead to helpless and hopeless, emotions.
But I also think if you look at the areas of the brain these treatments alter, these areas are described as playing major roles in aggression, irritability, impulse control and pretty much any emotion we experience in our lives. I believe it for every benefit a psychiatric med can have, there is also an opposite negative reaction that can occur. I have experienced this myself on more than one occasion with treatments being a huge benefit at first, only to have them start having the opposite effect. I think what causes this for me are certain compensatory actions in the brain that adjust after chronic treatment. I've taken treatments that have brightened my mood, increased libido, motivation and energy. Some treatments that even helped my problems with movement. But after too long, the effect of treatment reversed and the opposite. Mayb my brain is just sensitive to psych treatments. But I doubt I'm the only one with such a sensitive brain.
But if one just looks at the list of negative effects the treatment is recognized to have on mood. Look at what the parts of brain these meds affect and the role they play in emotions. Such as aggression that I listed above. And I feel a picture is painted for anyone wanting to understand the possibilities of what they can lead to (good or bad).And if these chemicals affect what goes on in parts of the brain that affect aggression, irritability and impulse control, what human actions can these emotions sometimes play a role in? Crime in general, right? One crime in particular is homicide. And knowing this, one would have expected "studies" that have been already replicated over and over to have been released after all the time these treatments have been on the market. Why aren't there any? Or are these studies already done and replicated, but just haven't been released for our viewing for certain reasons? And if studies do get released, you have to know who did them and what their conflicts of interest are. But you still can't really trust them when it comes down to it. You can really only trust yourself. Next in line, hopefully you can trust your family and maybe friends. But I myself don't need anymore info on the possibility of homicidal thoughts from treatment because of my experiences with it, I know it's possible.
Also, knowing that these chemical treatments affect the brain areas in that play a role in the emotions that are precursors to crimes, it might be good to require proof that they can't actually result in crime behavior. Rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt. It is after all, a one size fits all approach to altering these brain areas and the emotions they have a role in. "One size fits all" might be good for bandaids used for a paper cut on a finger. But not with the human brain.
Posted by hello321 on September 22, 2015, at 18:59:45
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes? » baseball55, posted by hello321 on September 22, 2015, at 18:07:12
"if you feel impulsive, irritable, agitated, hostile, aggressive, restless, hyperactive (mentally or physically), more depressed, or have thoughts about suicide or hurting yourself."
This is from the section for Lexapro on Drugs.com and it says to report these feelings to your doctor. Though if some negative thoughts do feel so right, or if their just scared of what might happen if they tell their doctor, they may just keep these thoughts to themselves and end up acting on them in some cases. These but these "side effects" can seem like a recipe for disaster. After hearing of these possible results, I don't think extensive studies on homicidal thoughts possibly being induced and acted on by some should be demanded before anyone decides at least which way they "lean" on the issue.
It's true that I'm passionate when it comes to certain topics concerning psychiatric meds.
Posted by baseball55 on September 22, 2015, at 21:12:34
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes? » baseball55, posted by hello321 on September 22, 2015, at 18:07:12
I think it comes down to how one feels about science in general and psychiatry and psychiatric drugs in particular. I have had mostly wonderful interactions with psychiatrists (I know I may be unusual) and I have seen a lot, because I have been hospitalized a lot (including for unilateral and bilateral ECT). My experience has been that they want very badly to help, care very much, but are only able to offer drugs or treatments that are often not effective. This is not their fault. They don't design the drugs anymore than primary care doctors design the often useless drugs they prescribe. If you want to think about a medical speciality that routinely lies about or overstates the effects of or manipulates patients into taking dangerous drugs that are just barely helpful - I give you -- ONCOLOGISTS! I know it is the thing on p-babble to diss p-docs, and I know there are a lot of mediocre doctors out there (as in any medical specialty) but I have great respect for p-docs. I believe they do their best with a very limited armament of drugs. The good ones, whom I have seen, do therapy and the therapy in itself often does more good than the drugs.
I have also had a fairly good experience with psych drugs. Not that they've always worked, but when they didn't, I have had no bad side effects and no discontinuation syndromes. The drugs that worked best for me had the most disturbing side effects (AAPS which caused unbelievably rapid weight gain). My p-docs were always upfront about the risks.
But science itself. Is not anecdote. You may have had a bad reaction to drugs, or you may have had bad things happen while or after you took drugs. Your reactions may have been due to the drugs, or may have just happened contemporaneously with your taking the drugs. Correlation is not causation. This is why studies need to be double-blinded and replicated, a basic tenet of medical science, the so-called gold standard for medical research. Look at RX list on side effects - 2% report memory problems, but so do 1.8% of people on placebo. This is the kind of thing you find all the time. Sometimes things just happen.
Then there's the issue of the validity of medical research, given the undue influence of the pharmaceutical industry. This is a problem and the information doctors are using is often unduly influenced by studies paid for by drug companies. But at this point, most SSRIs are.generic and have been studied to death by independent researchers. To imagine that there are studies out there showing a correlation and possible causality between murder and SSRIs that have been suppressed by Big Pharma just isn't credible to me.
Finally, yes, crime is strongly associated with poverty and also with race. Young black men are miserable, harassed by police, incarcerated for nothing, discriminated against in jobs, grow up without the example of working fathers. My heart breaks for them. But what does this have to do with SSRIs? For that matter, how many of the many mass murderers in recent years -- all young men -- were on SSRIs?
> Baseball, the things I write about often take into account my
experience. This is only an sectoral experience, but I have experienced homicidal thoughts induced by a few psychiatric treatment. I feel like these thoughts I felt were the result of more intense helpless emotions the treatment caused. Basically a worsening of depression caused by treatment.
>
> You see it on the news often, more crimes being committed in cities with a high poverty rate. Poverty can obviously lead to helpless and hopeless, emotions.
>
> But I also think if you look at the areas of the brain these treatments alter, these areas are described as playing major roles in aggression, irritability, impulse control and pretty much any emotion we experience in our lives. I believe it for every benefit a psychiatric med can have, there is also an opposite negative reaction that can occur. I have experienced this myself on more than one occasion with treatments being a huge benefit at first, only to have them start having the opposite effect. I think what causes this for me are certain compensatory actions in the brain that adjust after chronic treatment. I've taken treatments that have brightened my mood, increased libido, motivation and energy. Some treatments that even helped my problems with movement. But after too long, the effect of treatment reversed and the opposite. Mayb my brain is just sensitive to psych treatments. But I doubt I'm the only one with such a sensitive brain.
>
>
> But if one just looks at the list of negative effects the treatment is recognized to have on mood. Look at what the parts of brain these meds affect and the role they play in emotions. Such as aggression that I listed above. And I feel a picture is painted for anyone wanting to understand the possibilities of what they can lead to (good or bad).
>
> And if these chemicals affect what goes on in parts of the brain that affect aggression, irritability and impulse control, what human actions can these emotions sometimes play a role in? Crime in general, right? One crime in particular is homicide. And knowing this, one would have expected "studies" that have been already replicated over and over to have been released after all the time these treatments have been on the market. Why aren't there any? Or are these studies already done and replicated, but just haven't been released for our viewing for certain reasons? And if studies do get released, you have to know who did them and what their conflicts of interest are. But you still can't really trust them when it comes down to it. You can really only trust yourself. Next in line, hopefully you can trust your family and maybe friends. But I myself don't need anymore info on the possibility of homicidal thoughts from treatment because of my experiences with it, I know it's possible.
>
> Also, knowing that these chemical treatments affect the brain areas in that play a role in the emotions that are precursors to crimes, it might be good to require proof that they can't actually result in crime behavior. Rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt. It is after all, a one size fits all approach to altering these brain areas and the emotions they have a role in. "One size fits all" might be good for bandaids used for a paper cut on a finger. But not with the human brain.
>
Posted by hello321 on September 22, 2015, at 21:58:43
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by baseball55 on September 22, 2015, at 21:12:34
In the sense that you say corellation is not causation, then how can you be sure any medical treatment you've taken or had done has helped you in any way with its effects. There are other reasons you could have improved. There are other reasons you could have suddenly gained weight while on an AAP, even if the weight gain stopped or even went away after you stopped taking it. Right?
In that sense a most of the experiences on meds written all over the internet could just be mistaken thoughts.But I think I get it, you weren't informed about an experience like mine occurring by the professionals. So doubt should be cast on any experience the professionals haven't informed us about. I like science a lot if it is complete and presented accurately. When it isn't, we have to think for ourselves and come to our own conclusion based on what we observe.
Everything is politicized. When there is money/power/votes involved, expect there to be more to it than is presented to you if the industry can get away with it. I'm also an "anti-vaxxer". This is a derogatory used to describe those who think the science, at least whats being shown to us, on vaccines isn't complete. That choose not to buy into what theyre told just because a guy in a white coat tells us about the conclusion he came to. But no, I haven't personally seen a baby regress around the time they received vaccinations. And I'm not certain about the idea of vaccines actually causing autism. But I have read on the effects of vaccines and how they interact with the immune system. And how our immune system interacts with the brain and I've decided autism being a result of vaccines is a reasonable suggestion.
When the science we`re aware of is complete, then it is a great thing. It can lead to progress all over the world.
Posted by hello321 on September 22, 2015, at 22:06:47
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by hello321 on September 22, 2015, at 21:58:43
Chagddnkdcg
Posted by SLS on September 22, 2015, at 22:16:27
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by hello321 on September 22, 2015, at 21:58:43
> But no, I haven't personally seen a baby regress around the time they received vaccinations. And I'm not certain about the idea of vaccines actually causing autism. But I have read on the effects of vaccines and how they interact with the immune system. And how our immune system interacts with the brain and I've decided autism being a result of vaccines is a reasonable suggestion.
I agree. It is a reasonable suggestion.
- Scott
Posted by hello321 on September 22, 2015, at 23:06:26
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by baseball55 on September 22, 2015, at 21:12:34
Oh and you asked what my comments about poverty and crime had to do with antidepressants.
Well, just look at the emotions poverty can result in. That the situations you described can result in. Poverty can cause one to feel anxiety, panic attacks, trouble sleeping, impulsive, irritable, agitated, hostile, aggressive, restless, etc...
That reminds me of something, hmm what was it.. Oh yeah! Some of the side effects on that Lexapro list.
> I think it comes down to how one feels about science in general and psychiatry and psychiatric drugs in particular. I have had mostly wonderful interactions with psychiatrists (I know I may be unusual) and I have seen a lot, because I have been hospitalized a lot (including for unilateral and bilateral ECT). My experience has been that they want very badly to help, care very much, but are only able to offer drugs or treatments that are often not effective. This is not their fault. They don't design the drugs anymore than primary care doctors design the often useless drugs they prescribe. If you want to think about a medical speciality that routinely lies about or overstates the effects of or manipulates patients into taking dangerous drugs that are just barely helpful - I give you -- ONCOLOGISTS! I know it is the thing on p-babble to diss p-docs, and I know there are a lot of mediocre doctors out there (as in any medical specialty) but I have great respect for p-docs. I believe they do their best with a very limited armament of drugs. The good ones, whom I have seen, do therapy and the therapy in itself often does more good than the drugs.
>
> I have also had a fairly good experience with psych drugs. Not that they've always worked, but when they didn't, I have had no bad side effects and no discontinuation syndromes. The drugs that worked best for me had the most disturbing side effects (AAPS which caused unbelievably rapid weight gain). My p-docs were always upfront about the risks.
>
> But science itself. Is not anecdote. You may have had a bad reaction to drugs, or you may have had bad things happen while or after you took drugs. Your reactions may have been due to the drugs, or may have just happened contemporaneously with your taking the drugs. Correlation is not causation. This is why studies need to be double-blinded and replicated, a basic tenet of medical science, the so-called gold standard for medical research. Look at RX list on side effects - 2% report memory problems, but so do 1.8% of people on placebo. This is the kind of thing you find all the time. Sometimes things just happen.
>
> Then there's the issue of the validity of medical research, given the undue influence of the pharmaceutical industry. This is a problem and the information doctors are using is often unduly influenced by studies paid for by drug companies. But at this point, most SSRIs are.generic and have been studied to death by independent researchers. To imagine that there are studies out there showing a correlation and possible causality between murder and SSRIs that have been suppressed by Big Pharma just isn't credible to me.
>
> Finally, yes, crime is strongly associated with poverty and also with race. Young black men are miserable, harassed by police, incarcerated for nothing, discriminated against in jobs, grow up without the example of working fathers. My heart breaks for them. But what does this have to do with SSRIs? For that matter, how many of the many mass murderers in recent years -- all young men -- were on SSRIs?
>
>
> > Baseball, the things I write about often take into account my
> experience. This is only an sectoral experience, but I have experienced homicidal thoughts induced by a few psychiatric treatment. I feel like these thoughts I felt were the result of more intense helpless emotions the treatment caused. Basically a worsening of depression caused by treatment.
> >
> > You see it on the news often, more crimes being committed in cities with a high poverty rate. Poverty can obviously lead to helpless and hopeless, emotions.
> >
> > But I also think if you look at the areas of the brain these treatments alter, these areas are described as playing major roles in aggression, irritability, impulse control and pretty much any emotion we experience in our lives. I believe it for every benefit a psychiatric med can have, there is also an opposite negative reaction that can occur. I have experienced this myself on more than one occasion with treatments being a huge benefit at first, only to have them start having the opposite effect. I think what causes this for me are certain compensatory actions in the brain that adjust after chronic treatment. I've taken treatments that have brightened my mood, increased libido, motivation and energy. Some treatments that even helped my problems with movement. But after too long, the effect of treatment reversed and the opposite. Mayb my brain is just sensitive to psych treatments. But I doubt I'm the only one with such a sensitive brain.
> >
> >
> > But if one just looks at the list of negative effects the treatment is recognized to have on mood. Look at what the parts of brain these meds affect and the role they play in emotions. Such as aggression that I listed above. And I feel a picture is painted for anyone wanting to understand the possibilities of what they can lead to (good or bad).
> >
> > And if these chemicals affect what goes on in parts of the brain that affect aggression, irritability and impulse control, what human actions can these emotions sometimes play a role in? Crime in general, right? One crime in particular is homicide. And knowing this, one would have expected "studies" that have been already replicated over and over to have been released after all the time these treatments have been on the market. Why aren't there any? Or are these studies already done and replicated, but just haven't been released for our viewing for certain reasons? And if studies do get released, you have to know who did them and what their conflicts of interest are. But you still can't really trust them when it comes down to it. You can really only trust yourself. Next in line, hopefully you can trust your family and maybe friends. But I myself don't need anymore info on the possibility of homicidal thoughts from treatment because of my experiences with it, I know it's possible.
> >
> > Also, knowing that these chemical treatments affect the brain areas in that play a role in the emotions that are precursors to crimes, it might be good to require proof that they can't actually result in crime behavior. Rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt. It is after all, a one size fits all approach to altering these brain areas and the emotions they have a role in. "One size fits all" might be good for bandaids used for a paper cut on a finger. But not with the human brain.
> >
>
Posted by SLS on September 23, 2015, at 2:46:10
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by hello321 on September 22, 2015, at 23:06:26
> Poverty can cause one to feel anxiety, panic attacks, trouble sleeping, impulsive, irritable, agitated, hostile, aggressive, restless, etc...
So can almost any kind of extreme or chronic stress.
I would be interested to see something addressing the occurrence of the things listed here as being the consequences of poverty when not the symptoms of a psychiatric disorder.
Anyway, getting back to SSRIs and violent crimes...
What are the brain structures or circuits that might be involved in the precipitation of violent crimes in young people who are taking SSRIs?
- Scott
Posted by europerep on September 23, 2015, at 10:13:11
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by hello321 on September 22, 2015, at 21:58:43
> But no, I haven't personally seen a baby regress around the time they received vaccinations. And I'm not certain about the idea of vaccines actually causing autism. But I have read on the effects of vaccines and how they interact with the immune system. And how our immune system interacts with the brain and I've decided autism being a result of vaccines is a reasonable suggestion.
I'm an "anti-spherer". I don't have conclusive evidence that the Earth is flat. But based on what I see when I look outside the window and when I walk on the street, the idea that the Earth is flat seems to be a reasonable suggestion to me.
Seeing your own reasoning, you must accept this kind of statement if you don't want to be hypocritical.
It is virtually impossible for a normal human being to verify all the things "they" tell us are true. So what makes more sense, in my view, is to target our (critically important) skepticism at methods. How are the facts we are told are true are established, who continuously checks back whether we have not made mistakes in the process, etc.?
So let's see: how has the knowledge of today's medicine been established, and by whom? Were it fairly ignorant non-conformists who "thought for themselves" and "came to their own conclusions"? Or were it medical professionals who learned and studied the (by definition incomplete or partially false) state of medical science at their time, applied it to patients in the real world and then, after years if not decades of doing that, kicked our knowledge of medicine a step farther by making a great discovery? I think the answer is obvious.
With all due respect, based on your posts here over the past few years, your knowledge of neurobiology is, at best, basic. (So is mine by the way, but then I don't go out and make absurd quasi-speculations which I claim are filling the gaps of "incomplete" science.) So if you now try to point out the gaps and limits of our understanding of neurobiology and medicine, I cannot take that seriously even for a second. Spend thirty years studying the stuff, and then go to talk to the guys (and girls) who have done the same. Until then, you are not more qualified to discuss this stuff than I am qualified to discuss the shape of the Earth based on my personal life experience.
And, just in case you now go back to your supposed analogy of how people are allowed to have their own thoughts about politics even though they are not the experts: there is a huge difference between facts and opinions. Anyone can have an opinion. But what you are explicitly trying to do with your posts about psychiatry is tell us that the *facts* are wrong. And for those kinds of claims there exists a burden of proof. You not only never deliver this proof, you seem to be unwilling to even acknowledge that the burden of proof is actually there. You have to do that, because you would fail spectacularly at meeting it.
And the same goes for the whole vaccine stuff: study it for years and then attack the knowledge that we have on the issue. Or don't do that and point out that you are just stating opinions, which will carry the same weight as my speculation on the shape of the Earth at the beginning of this comment.
Posted by SLS on September 23, 2015, at 14:23:40
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes? » hello321, posted by europerep on September 23, 2015, at 10:13:11
Most scientists are adamant in concluding that vaccinations like MMR do not cause autism. So far, this conclusion is based on empirical studies of association.
Here is a mega study:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2275444
The causes of autism have yet to be elucidated. There are some ongoing studies to identify any genes that may be involved. So, there is a lot of work to do.
The one thing that I find striking is that there is an association between autism and brain inflammation. I was wondering if the MMR vaccinations were the cause of this inflammation. I read that brain inflammation is indeed a consequence of MMR if one has problems with their immune system. It is conceivable that MMR leads to brain inflammation, which leads to regression autism. Of course, just because something is conceivable doesn't make it true.
Brain inflammation also occurs with depression and bipolar disorder. Some researchers are looking at inflammation as being involved in the cause of these disorders. I tend to believe that inflammation is the result of, rather than the primary cause. I wonder, though, if inflammation, once induced, doesn't help drive the illness. It is conceivable.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25128861
I am leaning in the direction of believing that brain inflammation is the result of autism rather its cause.
- Scott
Posted by europerep on September 23, 2015, at 14:53:05
In reply to Re: Young people on SSRI's commit more crimes?, posted by SLS on September 23, 2015, at 14:23:40
> Of course, just because something is conceivable doesn't make it true.
Exactly, that's what I was trying to get at with my example about the shape of the Earth.
The difference is of course that questions about the shape of the Earth came up when people noticed "anomalies" that shouldn't be observable if the Earth was indeed flat. The supposed anomalies in the case of vaccinations stem, as far as I know, from a later-retracted paper by a fraudulent scientist, and the claims have now been thoroughly discredited. So to me it doesn't really make sense to think about the possible causes of a phenomenon that is not observed in reality.
If one does not believe this, I really see no other option than to study the subject matter, become an expert and then contribute to the scientific debate. And in this case, this wouldn't even be about settling the "correlation vs causation" question, it would require finding even just an association between MMR vaccines and autism in the first place.
Until one does that, anything one has to say on the matter is nothing more than the equivalent of "well, the Earth looks flat to me".
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