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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2011, at 12:06:07
In reply to the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 16, 2011, at 11:16:30
When's the last time you have taken a stimulant or SSRI?
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on April 16, 2011, at 12:25:12
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2011, at 12:06:07
Poser please keep posting to us there is a way and I just don't feel that is the way. Love Phillipa
Posted by poser938 on April 16, 2011, at 12:55:43
In reply to the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 16, 2011, at 11:16:30
last time i took an ssri was in the middle of 2007 and the stimulant was mirapex, i dont guess its really a stiumlant, but i know it stimulates dopamine receptors just like adderall would. but i took mirapex novemeber- december 2009. havent taken it since.
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2011, at 16:17:02
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 16, 2011, at 12:55:43
Mirapex is not a stimulant. It rat cell culltures, it exerts trophic effects on dopaminergic neurons. It also stimulantes BDNF and appears to have neuroprotective effects.
Mirapex did not cause your anhedonia. There is a good chance the SSRI didn't either.
Dude, you're depressed. Face it and quit blaming past drugs that were probably just inneffective.
Do something to help your depression now.
Linkadge
Posted by BrainDamage on April 16, 2011, at 18:51:39
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2011, at 16:17:02
I don't mean to sound callous, but when I read your post I though you had snorted MPTP or some such
Never Mirapex or Celexa are neurotoxic, to the best of my knowledge.
I they are at all neurotoxic, which I strongly doubt, then they are far less neurotoxic than say Alcohol.I can't believe you did much permanent harm to yourself with these drugs.
The fact that you responded to Mirapex suggests that maybe you need something to increase dopamine levels-just a guess..........
Posted by hyperfocus on April 16, 2011, at 19:58:21
In reply to the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 16, 2011, at 11:16:30
Hang in there dude, you will get better. There's too much stuff out there that can help you. Pretty much everyone here has had to deal with what you're facing. But we usually come up with the same answer - it's better if we stuck around. At least till the next Harry Potter film comes out...
Like the other posters, said it's not likely that the two drugs you took directly caused your anhedonia. It takes high-powered stimulants like amphetamines and cocaine to deplete the dopamine producing areas of the brain and cause anhedonia. It IS possible you're suffering some sort of post-SSRI effects but it's also possible, like linkadge said, that you just need a better AD.
If it's available in your country you could try tianeptine or low-dose sulpiride or amisulpiride for anhedonia. Sulpirde at 50mg and tianeptine 12.5mg x 3 can be effective against anhedonia and the results tend to appear quickly.
Be well.
Posted by poser938 on April 16, 2011, at 21:27:36
In reply to the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 16, 2011, at 11:16:30
yeah the 2 meds i took did cause my problems unless it was just a coincidence that these problems started in the middle of me taking those meds. mirapex dessnsitizes dopamine receptors after chronic use. when you take an ssri it changes the balance between dopamine and serotonin in your brain.
Posted by poser938 on April 16, 2011, at 21:34:43
In reply to Re: the only way out » poser938, posted by hyperfocus on April 16, 2011, at 19:58:21
and i did try tianeptine and it made the anhedonia worse. my thoughts are that my receptors just arent sensitive to dopamine anymore. ive read about others that took mirapex and ended up with anhedonia. and i do wanna live but and i did used to be a big harry potter fan, but i have zero interest in life right now. all i can get out of the psychiatrist is"side effects go away after you stop taking a med, so you're making it up in your head" which is bull. thats true for most people but not for me.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 16, 2011, at 22:19:18
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 16, 2011, at 21:34:43
You know yourself, and, all anxiety and alarming reading aside, if you feel like something happened chemically, anyone would be hard pressed to disprove you.
However, so many of us are 'chemically compromised' having lost some original neurological innocence.
You want to live, and so you can find a
way to do so, with a reasonable quality of
life. I really believe this, tough as life gets, and as much as it may s*ck, you know, the cards any of us may have been dealt or about to be dealt.I'm glad you posted. Have you posted
here before? There are some great people here who have a lot of experience. You, too.fb
Posted by linkadge on April 17, 2011, at 13:56:19
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 16, 2011, at 21:27:36
>yeah the 2 meds i took did cause my problems >unless it was just a coincidence that these >problems started in the middle of me taking >those meds. mirapex dessnsitizes dopamine >receptors after chronic use. when you take an >ssri it changes the balance between dopamine and >serotonin in your brain
Well you weren't exactly taking meds because you were too happy were you?
Sure, the medications can desensize receptors, thats a response to elevated neurotransmitter levels. Taking 5-htp will desensitize serotonin receptors too. Quercetin, a highly neuroprotective MAO inhibiting plant compound found in garlic and apples also desensitizes serotonin receptors. But, the when the neurotransmitter levels drop, the receptors increases in sensitivity in a matter of weeks.
The desensitization / resensitization process is not damamge, it is a normal physiological process that happens on a continual basis with most neurotransmitter and hormone receptors.Stress increases serotonin release in the DRN, this desensitizes 5-ht1a receptors in this region, but studies show that after the stress subsides, the receptors return to baseline function in a few days.
You were taking antidepressants and mirapex for a reason. Why would you add mirapex if you weren't anhedonic to behin with? You're not making a whole lot of sense.
I used to think that meds had damaged my brain then I realized that I met the criteria of clinical depression. Oh sure, the drugs might kill a brain cell or two, but the real problem I had was clinical depression. Its not as if I was perfectly fine, decided to take some psychoactive drugs for no reason (for an exteded period of time) then suffered permanantly because of it.
If you're still depressed, it will distort all of your thoughts. I've been on and off more antidepressants, antipsychotics, stimulants, mood stabilizers, than a lot of people here over the past 12 years. Afer all this time, I have at least come to recognize the difference between drug effects and clinical depression.
Linkadge
Posted by poser938 on April 17, 2011, at 14:08:50
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by linkadge on April 17, 2011, at 13:56:19
my god, i just noticed that immaking it up inmy head what the mirapex did to me.it was just a coincidence. yesi was a little numb from antideprssants in the past.. but while i was takingmirapex after about amonth it got much worse.but instead of trying to convince you,im just going continue thinking about how im going to kill myself. and if i cant get myself better by the end oof this summer.. im not going to be here on this earth anymore. ive gotten BS from my doctors just like ive gotten from you. they just say "medicine doesnt do that" or "you're making it up in your head" or "i cant help you" thats all ive heard and it makesme pretty hopeless. thanks but no thanks linkadge.
Posted by poser938 on April 17, 2011, at 14:20:18
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 17, 2011, at 14:08:50
i just wanted to comeon this site and maybe find an anser instead of being told immaking it up in my head again.
Posted by linkadge on April 17, 2011, at 15:55:41
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 17, 2011, at 14:08:50
>but instead of trying to convince you,im just >going continue thinking about how im going to >kill myself. and if i cant get myself better by >the end oof this summer.. im not going to be >here on this earth anymore.
What the f*ck are you expecting us to say to you here?? Yes, mirapex caused irreversable damage to your brain, from which you will never recover, therefore your only option is to kill yourself.
I'm not trying to defend psychiatry, I think they push a lot of crap, I just don't believe that mirapex has damaged your brain. It may have precipitated a turn into worse depression. Your current state sounds very much like **psychotic depression**. Ever consider the possiblity that mirapex was not the right medication for you? Dopaminergics are not the magic pleasure chemicals. Parnate is a strong dopaminergic but it made my depression much worse!! Yes, I took a major turn for the worse on parnate!! Are you listeneing to what I am saying?? To the point I just wanted to sit and stare at the wall for days on end. It induced a very dark mood. How could a dopaminergic do that?? Its cause it wasn't the right medication for me. It took a long time to recover from the chemical shift that parnate induced.
Dude, I'm not saying that mirapex didn't make you worse, I'm saying that it didn't damage your brain, theres a difference.
>ive gotten BS from my doctors just like ive >gotten from you. they just say "medicine doesnt >do that" or "you're making it up in your head" >or "i cant help you" thats all ive heard and it >makesme pretty hopeless.thanks but no thanks >linkadge.
Do whatever you want to do, I really don't care.
You can sit around blaming psychiatrists, and running your thoughts in loops, bla bla, my brain is damaged, bla bla psychiatrists don't understand. What do you expect us to say, other than what has been said? When you're so hard pressed on believing one single possiblity you're not going to get anywhere.Have you taken St. John' Wort?
If you're not open to hearing anything but what you want to hear, then you've answered your question before you came.
Linkadge
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 17, 2011, at 16:16:55
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 17, 2011, at 14:20:18
>just wanted to comeon this site and maybe find >an anser instead of being told immaking it up in >my head again.
Who said you're making it up???
I believe that what you're experiencing is very real and very painful. But sometimes people come to the wrong conclusions about what exactly is the source of their suffering.
When my uncle was severely depressed, he thought he had committed the unforgivable sin. He felt so sh*tty that this was the only possible explaination his mind could come up with. Did I ever believe he was making it up? No I fully knew that he felt like hell, but I also believed he was misattributing the wrong thing for his suffering.
I know for a fact that medications *can* make certain states worse, but there is no evidence that antidepressants irriversably damamge the brain. This has only been shown with high dose stimulants.
Look the only evidence you are presenting us with here is the fact that you took mirapex and you started feeling worse, and you have been feeling worse since.
Well yes, mirapex could make depression worse, this side effect has been occasonally noted in people with parkinsons. Its not ususal, but not impossible.
Somtimes a drug can put somebody into a bad funk that is hard to get out of. Sometimes drugs can simply push the affective state further into the negative trajectory in which it was headed.
However, unless you have seen your own brain tissue under a microscope, there is no way to conclude that your brain is irriversably damaged.
Depression causes suicide. If you can't see that you're still depressed, than nobody can help you.
Depression causes low BDNF, low BDNF causes low trk-b activation. The reduced trk-b activation reduces P11 expression in the neucleus accumbens. This reduces the surface expression of 5-ht1b receptors in the neucleus accumbens. The reduced 5-ht1b receptors causes a dramatic reduction in the release of dopamine in the NAC. This causes anhedonia.
You need to boost your BDNF levels.
Anhedonia is the ***CORE*** smptom of depression. Plain and simple. Anhedonia lasting more than 2 weeks is sufficiant to diagnose major depressive disorder.
Don't know what you want to hear.
Relavant Studies:Mirapex protects against neurotoxicity to dopamienrgic neurons in the brain
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15473989
Mirapex protects against loss of tyrosine hydroxylase from lactacystin toxicity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18555604
Mirapex induces trophic effects on mesencephalic dopamine neurons.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16307585
Another study shows mirapex's neuroprotective effect similar to potent antioxidants:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10087005
Mirapex protects against l-dopa induced neurotoxicity:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9203083
Another study suggesting the trophic action of mirapex on dopaminergic neurons:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9593863
Go get more effective treatment for your depression.
Linkadge
Posted by floatingbridge on April 17, 2011, at 16:41:51
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by linkadge on April 17, 2011, at 16:16:55
Link,
Some good reading. Thanks. Never thanked you for the link to that bipolar/depression blog site awhile back. Very useful reading for me.
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on April 17, 2011, at 16:59:15
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 17, 2011, at 14:20:18
Hey poser, I don't really think anyone has said it's in your head. Most of us have been on the merry-go-round more than once.
What would you like to ask? And what do you need to know? You are very welcome here.
Your distress is real. I don't think anyone will debate that. If you want reassurance
or acknowledgment, you've got mine. From reading along this thread, Linkage has posted some good reading for you and some good observations. For whatever the initial reasons, sounds like you are depressed. I get p*ssed and desperate when meds leave me flat or even worse off then when I started. But there are still choices to be made. That you've set the summer to end it is a choice. You chose to post here, and hopefully that is a positive choice.Hang around, read some threads, post
some questions and comments. You have support if you are willing to accept ot. As commented above, you seem to have been on a series of meds, and to my mind, some pretty quickly in succession. That can leave one rattled, scraped raw, numb, or?What are you currently taking?
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 17, 2011, at 17:18:05
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by linkadge on April 17, 2011, at 15:55:41
Friends,
If you are considering posting in this thread, I am requesting that you read the following article.
Lou
To see this article;
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in:
[Psychotropic drugs, cause brain damage?]
You will see the article titled,{Brain damage caused by neuroleptic psychotrpic drugs-MFI Portal}
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 17, 2011, at 17:50:47
In reply to Lou's response-brahyndhamedge, posted by Lou Pilder on April 17, 2011, at 17:18:05
> Friends,
> If you are considering posting in this thread, I am requesting that you read the following article.
> Lou
> To see this article;
> A. Pull up Google
> B. Type in:
> [Psychotropic drugs, cause brain damage?]
> You will see the article titled,{Brain damage caused by neuroleptic psychotrpic drugs-MFI Portal}
Friends,
Another aspect of this dicussion could be as to what a drug can cause the brain to do. In the following video, that is stated in relation to the drug in question. But does that mean for only that drug? Is there anything to prove that the brain does not do the same thing with other drugs?
Lou
To see this video,
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in;
[youtube, the world's most dangerous drug]
You will see two people and the video is produced by Natioanal Geographic
the time is 3 min posted on June 25, 2008
Posted by Phillipa on April 17, 2011, at 19:45:31
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 17, 2011, at 14:20:18
Poser and so glad you are here. It's so hard to feel so miserable and feel like you are being accused of the cause. You aren't some meds are just not a good fit. I sure hope brain damage isn't a result of meds as a bunch of people who have found their right med or combo Might disagree on this. Hang in okay? Feel free to babblemail me also. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on April 17, 2011, at 22:40:26
In reply to the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 16, 2011, at 11:16:30
> so i think i've finally realized the only way out of the situation i'm is to off myself. i've been suffering from stimulant induced anhedonia for a year and a half.(and SSRI induced anhedonia for 3 years before that, i have both now) im completely numb to any feelings of pleasure. im wasting my life just laying in my bed all day everyday. i have zero drive.. and it hurts. i've been to two different psychiatrists and both told me they cant help me. so i guess i'm stuck like this, which is just unnacceptable. i need some help somebody...
Your story is not so unusual amongst the people who arrive here at Psycho-Babble. It would be difficult to isolate the factors that have made you feel worse. Sometimes, it is a change in the natural course of the illness that is not recognized as such. Sometimes there are lasting undesirable effects for having taken medications that persist after discontinuing them. Either way, I don't think your future treatments should be chosen contingent upon trying to reverse the perceived negative reactions of previously tried drugs. You might do better to pursue treating your depression as it is now, and not worry about how in differs your depression historically.
As you interact here at Psycho-Babble, you will learn new treatment techniques that others have tried. The longer you are here, the more alternative treatments you will come to know and research. There are people who have failed to respond to decades of treatment, only to come upon an untried medication combination that produces a robust therapeutic response.
Be prepared to endure today as you continue to work for a better tomorrow. I cannot make you any guarantees, though. However, you do have a better chance of finding your rewards in life if you remain alive long enough to explore new treatments with old drugs as new drugs become available. I am currently taking 5 different drugs and am seeing a stable treatment response for the first time in 25 years. Fortunately, I hung around long enough.
If one person can suggest a treatment strategy that you have not yet tried, you have a logical reason to remain alive to pursue it. There is true hope. That's the way I have come to look at things. This perspective helped keep me alive for over 30 years.
What are some of the treatments your doctor has in mind for you?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 17, 2011, at 22:47:59
In reply to Lou's response-pumnantlozvplehzur, posted by Lou Pilder on April 17, 2011, at 17:50:47
> > Friends,
> > If you are considering posting in this thread, I am requesting that you read the following article.
> > Lou
> > To see this article;
> > A. Pull up Google
> > B. Type in:
> > [Psychotropic drugs, cause brain damage?]
> > You will see the article titled,{Brain damage caused by neuroleptic psychotrpic drugs-MFI Portal}
> Friends,
> Another aspect of this dicussion could be as to what a drug can cause the brain to do. In the following video, that is stated in relation to the drug in question. But does that mean for only that drug? Is there anything to prove that the brain does not do the same thing with other drugs?
> Lou
> To see this video,
> A. Pull up Google
> B. Type in;
> [youtube, the world's most dangerous drug]
> You will see two people and the video is produced by Natioanal Geographic
> the time is 3 min posted on June 25, 2008
For mental illnesses, the world's most dangerous drug is often no drug at all.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on April 17, 2011, at 22:50:59
In reply to Re: To treat or not to treat... » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on April 17, 2011, at 22:47:59
>
>
> For mental illnesses, the world's most dangerous drug is often no drug at all.
>
>
> - Scott
Simple and sane observation. Your coinage? I like it.
Posted by SLS on April 17, 2011, at 22:53:29
In reply to Re: To treat or not to treat..., posted by floatingbridge on April 17, 2011, at 22:50:59
>
> >
> >
> > For mental illnesses, the world's most dangerous drug is often no drug at all.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
> Simple and sane observation. Your coinage? I like it.
Thanks.:-)
- Scott
Posted by poser938 on April 18, 2011, at 0:14:18
In reply to Re: the only way out » poser938, posted by SLS on April 17, 2011, at 22:40:26
i stopped going to one because he said there was nothinng else he could do.. and my new one prescribed me celexa(ssr) which is the 1st thing thats usually tried im sure you know. its the only ssri i havent taken and the other ones numbed me to different extents. ive tried wellbutrin and it has a different numbing effect on me than SSRI's.
Well i'll tell you a bit of my psych history.
in 2005 when i 1st saw a psych he prescribed me cymbalta and adderall. after about a month my tolerance grew to adderall completely to 20mgs XR so i tried taking 2 of them and i still could not feel it one bit. usually people can up their dose and get and effect but i got nothing. i also ended up with anhedonia/extreme anxiety from that combo.. i suffered for a year and then gave and tried effexor and it made me sooooo NUMB! so i tried adderall again and still got no effect from it at all even tho it had been a year.
a few days later i asked my doc for cyproheptadine to help with effexor side effects. so i took it, slowly increasing the dose week for about a month..and then all the sudden my anhedonia had gone away. i could feel adderall again, and i was much less numb... but still pretty numb.2 years went by and then i finally went to a medical doc to see if anything could take away all the numbness and thats when i was given mirapex. after a month and a half i ended up with anhedonia from it. thats when i realized adderall had caused my anhedonia in the past. so i tried cyproheptadine again, it helped quite a bit again, but i ended having to take too high a dose of it this time and had to stop taking it, unfortuanately.. and ive slowly gotten worse since i stopped taking it in december 2010. im going to get some more of the cyproheptadine tuesday to see if my tolerance has gone down to it yet. i storngly believe cyproheptadine affects dopamine receptors by upregulating them/ sensitiziing them in some way. and that increases the release of dopamine. i dont get how, im just positive it does.
sorry if some of this sounds unclear, i can seriously not think straight .
Posted by SLS on April 18, 2011, at 5:52:41
In reply to Re: the only way out, posted by poser938 on April 18, 2011, at 0:14:18
You are right about cyproheptadine. It is considered an anti-serotonergic that blocks 5-HT2a and 5-HT2b receptors. This in turn increases dopaminergic activity in various regions of the brain, including the prefrontal cortex - an area important for cognition and mood. Interestingly, 5-HT2a receptor binding is increased in suicide victims. This upregulation might indicate a decrease in serotoninergic activity in the PFC. This is in contrast to the mood-lifting properties of antipsychotics that block 5-HT2a receptors.
Linkadge is very capable. He is an amazing resource for information. I'm sure he will correct my errors and expand upon what I have said.
Have you ever tried Remeron?
I'm glad you are now in a more positive and constructive state of mind. This is a heroic effort in view of the frustration and pain you must endure. Keep it up and continue to think creatively.
Suicide is a way out for which there is no way back in.
There is actually a neurobiology for suicidality. Anger and anxiety make it worse. In other words, there is the possibility that you are currently wired biologically to *feel* suicidal. When this is combined with having to manage a depressing situation, things get dangerous. You might need to start looking at this feeling of suicidality to be artificially produced by a dysfunction brain. Self-talk that recognizes these false fellings might help. It has helped me, especially when I have had bad reactions to medications. I avoid making decisions while in this state.
- Scott
> i stopped going to one because he said there was nothinng else he could do.. and my new one prescribed me celexa(ssr) which is the 1st thing thats usually tried im sure you know. its the only ssri i havent taken and the other ones numbed me to different extents. ive tried wellbutrin and it has a different numbing effect on me than SSRI's.
> Well i'll tell you a bit of my psych history.
> in 2005 when i 1st saw a psych he prescribed me cymbalta and adderall. after about a month my tolerance grew to adderall completely to 20mgs XR so i tried taking 2 of them and i still could not feel it one bit. usually people can up their dose and get and effect but i got nothing. i also ended up with anhedonia/extreme anxiety from that combo.. i suffered for a year and then gave and tried effexor and it made me sooooo NUMB! so i tried adderall again and still got no effect from it at all even tho it had been a year.
> a few days later i asked my doc for cyproheptadine to help with effexor side effects. so i took it, slowly increasing the dose week for about a month..and then all the sudden my anhedonia had gone away. i could feel adderall again, and i was much less numb... but still pretty numb.
>
> 2 years went by and then i finally went to a medical doc to see if anything could take away all the numbness and thats when i was given mirapex. after a month and a half i ended up with anhedonia from it. thats when i realized adderall had caused my anhedonia in the past. so i tried cyproheptadine again, it helped quite a bit again, but i ended having to take too high a dose of it this time and had to stop taking it, unfortuanately.. and ive slowly gotten worse since i stopped taking it in december 2010. im going to get some more of the cyproheptadine tuesday to see if my tolerance has gone down to it yet. i storngly believe cyproheptadine affects dopamine receptors by upregulating them/ sensitiziing them in some way. and that increases the release of dopamine. i dont get how, im just positive it does.
>
> sorry if some of this sounds unclear, i can seriously not think straight .
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