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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 28 to 52 of 128. Go back in thread:
Posted by floatingbridge on September 14, 2010, at 10:51:23
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » Dinah, posted by SLS on September 14, 2010, at 8:41:19
> > ...my new pdoc added a mood stabilizer to my SSRI, and my impulses decreased markedly.
>
> Which mood stabilizer?
>
>
> - ScottYes, would you mind? Which stabilizer?
Thanks.
Posted by floatingbridge on September 14, 2010, at 10:58:15
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » linkadge, posted by Dinah on September 14, 2010, at 8:20:54
Dinah, that was very helpful. Within that framework, how might one come to terms w/ behavior like my grandmother (mentioned in thread above). Sometimes, I was told, her attempts coincided with the time my uncle would be expected home after school.
Is this a zebra of a different stripe?
She's a real puzzle. I cannot find a way in.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on September 14, 2010, at 13:50:41
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by linkadge on September 14, 2010, at 6:54:46
>you are sick enough to warrant proclonifaxoft.
I like it!
Posted by Dinah on September 14, 2010, at 17:00:02
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » Dinah, posted by SLS on September 14, 2010, at 8:41:19
At the time it was Depakote. Eventually I went off the SSRI completely. While I appreciate what it did do, it also had some bad effects for me. I self injured on Luvox, which I never had done before and have rarely done since. I think I read somewhere in the tips section that SSRI's can be disinhibiting for self injury for some people. Or maybe there was some low level agitation that I wasn't aware of.
When I went off Luvox, I stayed on Depakote for migraine prophylaxis, then changed it to Lamictal, which has been good enough with less side effects (weight).
I guess different people respond differently to medication. SSRI's are supposed to reduce self injury and suicidal urges.
Posted by Dinah on September 14, 2010, at 17:07:00
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » Dinah, posted by floatingbridge on September 14, 2010, at 10:58:15
From how you describe the timing, it sounds manipulative or angry. I'm sure that does happen at times. I just don't think it's necessarily true all the time.
I suppose it's possible that your uncle's return home from school triggered something in her. But, having a son myself, I find it very hard to understand.
I wish for your family's sake that medications and effective therapy had been available to her. That's an awful way to grow up.
Posted by Dinah on September 14, 2010, at 17:17:16
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by SLS on September 14, 2010, at 8:39:36
> > In some disorders, mood lability is an issue. A person might genuinely feel despair and have suicidal impulses that are difficult to resist.
>
> For some Axis II disorders that involve impaired impulse control and mood lability, Tegretol and Trileptal can be helpful. Zyprexa, too. These seem to work better when combined with psychotherapy such as CBT or DBT. If facilitated properly, even group CBT therapy can be effective.
>
>
> - ScottI'm not familiar with Tegretol or Trileptal, but I can definitely see why antipsychotics would help. I use Risperdal on occasion as needed to keep steadier than I might otherwise be. Bone deep calm without grogginess. For me anyway.
Therapy also definitely helps.
(I'm very lucky to have a pdoc who supports my as needed tweaking of meds to keep even.)
Posted by SLS on September 14, 2010, at 17:18:15
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » floatingbridge, posted by Dinah on September 14, 2010, at 17:07:00
Thanks for replying, Dinah.
- Scott
Posted by Maxime on September 14, 2010, at 17:50:48
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » SLS, posted by Dinah on September 14, 2010, at 17:17:16
I can't remember the stats, but more women attempt suicide than men. But men are more succesful at carrying it out because they usually use a more violent means (gun, hanging). Women take to take pills with alhohol.
Posted by linkadge on September 14, 2010, at 18:20:52
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » SLS, posted by Dinah on September 14, 2010, at 17:00:02
>SSRI's are supposed to reduce self injury and >suicidal urges.
Oh yeah, they're "supposed" to do a lot of things.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 14, 2010, at 18:36:39
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » Dinah, posted by Maxime on September 14, 2010, at 17:50:48
I have read that statistic too. I tend to think it is because of sex differences in brain wiring.
Ever notice when women have a problem, men want to simply "fix" the problem, wheras women really want consolation? They want to talk about the problem, or to know that their husband loves them yadi yada (a stereotype I appologise).
When I think about my problems (I am male), I don't really care about the conscolation of family and friends. I don't want it. I think of my problems in terms of something that needs to be fixed. If I come to the conclusion that I cannot "fix" the problem, or that it cannot be fixed by medications, then I really don't really want to talk about it much at all.
Thats why CBT probably doesn't work for me. I don't want to talk about my problems unless you have something that will "fix" the situation. Suicide (but certainly not failed suicide) becomes the solution to the problem.
There are two possiblities as to why women fail more. Either a) they are not as good at men at devising lethal methods b) they don't really want to die. I am leaning towards the latter, simply because of the way women may derive more positive mood benefit from the attention of family and friends, whereas men don't want consolation, they want a solution.
I wouldn't be caught dead (an oxymoron I appologise :)), failing suicide. If I did, I would feel so much more utterly worthless.
Linkadge
Posted by Maxime on September 14, 2010, at 18:57:05
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » Dinah, posted by Maxime on September 14, 2010, at 17:50:48
Posted by Maxime on September 14, 2010, at 19:12:27
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » Maxime, posted by linkadge on September 14, 2010, at 18:36:39
> I wouldn't be caught dead (an oxymoron I appologise :)), failing suicide. If I did, I would feel so much more utterly worthless.
>
> LinkadgeI hear you! When I attempted in 2008 and I woke up from a coma and on a breathing machine my first thought was "oh f*ck, failed at something else."
Posted by Deneb on September 14, 2010, at 20:10:25
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » Maxime, posted by linkadge on September 14, 2010, at 18:36:39
It's not in all countries that more men than women kill themselves. I think in rural China a lot more women succeed.
Posted by Maxime on September 14, 2010, at 21:56:03
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » linkadge, posted by Deneb on September 14, 2010, at 20:10:25
You are right Deneb. And the method is not pretty. They often drink pesticide. China has one of the highest suicide rates in the WORLD.
Posted by Deneb on September 15, 2010, at 0:25:22
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » Deneb, posted by Maxime on September 14, 2010, at 21:56:03
I watch a lot of period Chinese dramas now that my Mom watches Chinese TV all day and one thing I've noticed is that suicide is involved in most of them. It almost seems like suicide is a noble and courageous thing to do in that culture. Most suicide impulsively in those dramas. I wonder if people really were like that back during that time?
Posted by maya3 on September 15, 2010, at 7:52:02
In reply to suicidality exhaustion..., posted by linkadge on September 12, 2010, at 15:20:09
In my view, no one attempts suicide for attention, knowing that such behavior will most likely result in either severe brain damage or death. Conditions such as depression or psychosis can lead to suicide as they involve emotional flooding and cognitive changes that bring about faulty perception and judgement. The act is often commited impulsively as a result of the biochemical changes mentioned above.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 15, 2010, at 10:30:29
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » Maxime, posted by linkadge on September 14, 2010, at 18:36:39
> There are two possiblities as to why women fail more. Either a) they are not as good at men at devising lethal methods b) they don't really want to die.
>
> I wouldn't be caught dead ... failing suicide. If I did, I would feel so much more utterly worthless.I'm sorry you're feeling worthless. At the same time, I need to ask you not to post anything that could lead others to feel put down or to jump to conclusions about them.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by floatingbridge on September 15, 2010, at 12:42:16
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » linkadge, posted by Deneb on September 14, 2010, at 20:10:25
> It's not in all countries that more men than women kill themselves. I think in rural China a lot more women succeed.
>
>Deneb, I didn't realize this.
Posted by floatingbridge on September 15, 2010, at 13:04:09
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » floatingbridge, posted by Dinah on September 14, 2010, at 17:07:00
> From how you describe the timing, it sounds manipulative or angry. I'm sure that does happen at times. I just don't think it's necessarily true all the time.
>Yes. I think I understand more. Perhaps my grandmother wasn't exactly *suicidal*. The gestures were code in her case, her case being anomaly and not the norm. Her case is one someone could point to as (erroneous) evidence of suicide as manipulative and selfish.
> I suppose it's possible that your uncle's return home from school triggered something in her. But, having a son myself, I find it very hard to understand.,
>I find it difficult, myself, as a daughter of her daughter, and now a mother. Her
pain must have been wickedly ferocious. Being a mother made and makes everything more intense for me. The stakes are higher. Perhaps intervention for my grandmother or forgoing child rearing. This was less an option in the late 30's.> I wish for your family's sake that medications and effective therapy had been available to her. That's an awful way to grow up.
Thank you Dinah. Me, too. It's an awful legacy.
Thanks, your response was helpful.
Posted by Maxime on September 15, 2010, at 19:43:37
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by floatingbridge on September 15, 2010, at 13:04:09
People complain that people attempt suicide for attention. Well, yes, yes they do. They don't know how else to communicate how bloody awful they feel. I don't think it's being manipulative. I think it's a way of expressing pain when they don't know what else to do.
Posted by emmanuel98 on September 15, 2010, at 20:34:33
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » floatingbridge, posted by Maxime on September 15, 2010, at 19:43:37
There are people who frequently make suicidal "gestures" -- slit thier wrist with razor blades, take overdoses of antidepressants or of ibuprofen or tylenol -- things that aren't going to be fatal and the person knows this. there are also people who make more serious suicidal gestures -- taking an overdose within minutes of thier husband arriving home, threatening to hang themselves with other people present to find them and stop them. There are also people who threaten suicide constantly as a way to manipulate others and express unhappiness. My mother-in-law did this and terrified her children. I see this as an example of histrionic behavior, self-dramatizing and manipulative, even if the person doesn't have the self-awareness to realize it's manipulative, other people experience it that way.
This is very different from people who become severely depressed and obsessed by intrusive thoughts of suicide, who actually research what works and what doesn't, who seriously attempt suicide and either fail or get scared at the last moment. These are not gestures. These are genuine expressions of despair. I have had this problem and never threatened or talked about suicide to my family or therapists. I just went directly to the emergency room after two failed attempts. It is not shameful to attempt and fail. It is not shameful to pull back at the last minute. It is some healthy part of your mind reasserting itself and remembering that you have loved ones and responsibilities.
Posted by floatingbridge on September 15, 2010, at 21:17:35
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by emmanuel98 on September 15, 2010, at 20:34:33
That was well put. Thanks.
Posted by linkadge on September 16, 2010, at 7:09:16
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » floatingbridge, posted by Maxime on September 15, 2010, at 19:43:37
>Well, yes, yes they do. They don't know how else >to communicate how bloody awful they feel. I >don't think it's being manipulative. I think >it's a way of expressing pain when they don't >know what else to do.
First of all, what is manipulative? What does the fake suicide attempter really gain? I really don't think it results in better treatment. Perhaps more time in the hospital, or higher doses of the same inneffective drugs but...
I think if you just tell a doctor you're suicidal, this will warrent the best treatment they have.
I do think it is being manipulative. You're being deceiptful about how you feel. You're not bad enough to want to complete it, you're only bad enough to want to make people think you will follow through. I.e. you want people to think that the situation is worse than it is.
Sure you may say, "well I really feel like doing it", but there is a *big* gap between feeling like doing it, and actually doing it", and by faking it, you're saying things have reached a stage that they really havn't.
Posted by linkadge on September 16, 2010, at 7:27:11
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by emmanuel98 on September 15, 2010, at 20:34:33
>It is not shameful to attempt and fail. It is >not shameful to pull back at the last minute. It >is some healthy part of your mind reasserting >itself and remembering that you have loved ones >and responsibilities.
I do agree with you in a sense. But another part of me still doesn't really understand.
I'm not saying *part* of the suicidal individual don't want to die, but I am saying that people make the decision to chose a method that is:
a) 100% lethal or not
b) can be backed out of or notIf you chose a method less than this, then (consiously or subconsiously) you don't 100% want to die.
Linkadge
Posted by Dinah on September 16, 2010, at 8:03:55
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » emmanuel98, posted by linkadge on September 16, 2010, at 7:27:11
> I'm not saying *part* of the suicidal individual don't want to die, but I am saying that people make the decision to chose a method that is:
>
> a) 100% lethal or not
> b) can be backed out of or not
>
> If you chose a method less than this, then (consiously or subconsiously) you don't 100% want to die.
>
> LinkadgeI'm getting the impression that you believe others think about suicide the same way you do.
For example, some people have preferences as to *how* they'd like to die. Perhaps for the sake of the ones they leave behind, perhaps for other reasons. They may not have the odds of success at their fingertips. Suicide can be impulsive.
Other people don't think about suicide in the same terms you do. And why not? Not all people think about *anything* in the same terms.
The fact is that people who use less than 100% lethal means may not die 100% of the time, but they *do* die. People with a history of suicidal gestures end up dying all the time. It's happened on this site, to someone I cared about. I don't want to say "succeeding". I don't know their intentions. I can't possibly know their intentions. I just know what a loss it is.
I don't think it's helpful to anyone to believe that they should choose a more certainly lethal means of death if they really want to die. Failing at suicide leads to living and, with the proper help, living is the best outcome for everyone.
Can you just accept that this is something that causes you anxiety or anger, and that it isn't how you think about suicide or you don't understand, without stating your beliefs about the motivations of others? How can you know the motivations of others? How can you know the thinking processes of someone experiencing a mixed state, for example? All you can really know is the effect it has on you. What you feel when it happens.
You appear to have very strong feelings about this. Are you wrestling with suicidal feelings yourself right now? Is someone in your personal life causing you anxiety?
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