![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 42. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Quintal on February 13, 2007, at 15:56:22
In the seven days and seven nights I've been banished from the land of Babble, I've had time to reflect on the benzo/Ashton issue. The old thread is a lost cause so I'm going to let it go and give a loose reply to some of the issues raised here.
I was surprised by the reactions the thread provoked, especially since the initial post was supportive of benzo users. It seems to me people were jumping in without reading the thread carefully and posting in a state of reactivity to the name Ashton, jumping to conclusions about all its negative connotations.
Ed and Meri-Tuuli; thanks for the posts in defence fairness. It's good to see people who know what that means around here willing to stand up for it. Also, special thanks to Meri-Tuuli for recognizing that I was trying to create *balance* in the thread in the face of fierce anti-Ashton sentiment.
To clarify; I am not anti-med nor anti-benzo. Not at all. Meri-Tuuli and the delectable MrBrice of Belgium can attest to my being supportive of their benzo trials. I was amused to see that comment by dbc (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20070201/msgs/730266.html). My ex pdoc who waved a list of my med trials (running into two sides of A4) under my nose in protest against all the meds I've taken would be as puzzled as I am by your convictions about me I'm sure.
It seems to me that most of the posts were accusations that Heather was prone to fanaticism and generalizations. I think that's odd and can find little to support those assertions. Here are some quotes from a speech to the 3rd Annual Benzodiazepine Conference by Heather in October 2005 that I think illustrate quite well how the benzos fell from grace in the UK.............
__________________________________________________"But in the early 1980s in England long-term prescribed users themselves realised that the drugs tended to lose their efficacy over time and instead became associated with adverse effects. In particular, patients found it difficult to stop taking benzodiazepines because of withdrawal effects, and many complained that they had become ‘addicted’. Throughout the 1980s there was a public outcry against benzodiazepines in the U.K. resulting in widespread media coverage in the press, radio and television and a burgeoning of self-help groups and withdrawal clinics."
http://www.psychmedaware.org/History%20of%20Benzodiazepines.html
__________________________________________________.......................and Heather Ashton's motives for founding the original benzo withdrawal clinic:
__________________________________________________
History of my benzodiazepine withdrawal clinic:
My own involvement with benzodiazepines started at this time. One day in 1981 a lady came hobbling on crutches into my general pharmacology clinic. She had been involved in a road traffic accident. She had two broken limbs in plaster and had been prescribed the benzodiazepine Ativan for muscle relaxation (1mg tds). She had noticed as she recovered that when the time for each dose of Ativan approached she experienced a strong craving for the next pill, along with anxiety, restlessness and muscle cramps. “I think I am addicted” she said, “Can you help me?” Naively I said “yes” although I had no experience in drug addiction at that time. She duly underwent a withdrawal process, during which she suffered many symptoms including anxiety, insomnia, hallucinations; tremor, muscle cramps and many other symptoms now (but not then) recognised as typical benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms.
Following this lady’s appearance at my clinic there was a trickle of others which soon grew to a stream and finally a flood of patients referred by their doctors because they wished to stop their benzodiazepines. As a result, I had to start a dedicated benzodiazepine withdrawal clinic. I continued this clinic single-handedly for 12 years at two sessions every week until 1994 when I had to retire (you have to retire at 65 from clinical work under the National Health Service). Strangely, none of my medical colleagues wished to become involved in this clinic or to take it over in 1994, so the clinic closed down. I think that the current medical training did not equip most doctors for listening to anxious patients with many complaints, patients who were time-consuming and required repeated consultations. I myself spent most of the time simply listening to the patients and learning from them how to come off benzodiazepines.
http://www.psychmedaware.org/History%20of%20Benzodiazepines.html
__________________________________________________I think Heather has a fairly balanced and reasonable view of the place of benzos in short term treatment:
__________________________________________________"In the short-term, that is 2-4 weeks only or intermittent use, benzodiazepines have many excellent therapeutic, even life-saving properties, "
http://www.psychmedaware.org/History%20of%20Benzodiazepines.html
__________________________________________________Q
Posted by Quintal on February 13, 2007, at 16:07:22
In reply to Back from Exile, posted by Quintal on February 13, 2007, at 15:56:22
Here is my old RemedyFind clonazepam rating from 2003:
__________________________________________________I've been taking clonazepam daily for over one year now. I suffer from Social Anxiety Disorder as well as severe and chronic insomnia and for me this drug has been an absolute miracle. My symptoms have disappeared almost 99%; to hell with the underlying causes!!! As far as I'm concerned, I'M CURED! I can't thank the pharmocologists who invented this drug and the doctor who prescribes it to me enough.
I also feel that I cannot adequately condemn those among the medical community (and the general public) who seem to have an obsessive hatred and irrational phobia of the benzodiazepines and the people who take them regularly.
I've tried all the SSRI anti-depressants, and others, which were prescribed by several heavily 'benzophobic' doctors who claimed that the SSRI's were far superior in reliving anxiety & insomnia, and their supposed lack of dependence & withdrawal made them most suitable for my condition.
Almost all people in my situation with adequate experience will tell you that this is complete and absolute rubbish. The SSRI's have many, often intolerable side-effects. In addition they cause and worsen anxiety and insomnia in most people!
After taking Effexor (venlafaxine) for 2 months the side-effects were intolerable so I decided to stop. Cold turkey.
What followed was the worst drug-related withdrawal of my life. I thought it would never end. I'd already stopped Lorazepam (Ativan)-an allegedly highly addictive benzodiazepine cold turkey after 5 months of continuous use, with only a few mild headaches as a result.
But venlafaxine was far, far worse. Nausea, vomiting, migraine, diarrhea, muscle weakness and the strangest feeling of disorientation /dissociation. This lasted for 5 weeks. Pure hell. When I told my psychiatrist he just shrugged and laughed.
"Yes, venlafaxine and paroxatine do have a bit of a withdrawal syndrome. I'll give you a small dosage to help you through. Don't worry It'll soon pass. I'll start you on Prozac when the wash-out is complete."So much for the lack of withdrawal symptoms.
Anyway, I just want to let you all know that clonazepam is not dangerous, evil drug and god forbid it is ever taken off the market. It is very effective for most people. Withdrawal effects seem to be mild, and only occur after long-term high-dose use.
Irresponsible prescribing by physicians and abuse of the drug by patients has, on occasion, lead to life-changing problems that require intensive rehabilitation.
Sorry, but I don't believe the melodramatic claims that 'lives have been ruined' as a consequence. Certainly very inconvenienced and disrupted, but not forever 'ruined'.
My experience with venlafaxine was pretty much the same but I cannot honestly say the experience ruined my life.
These cases do not make clonazepam a dangerous drug, or indicate that it should be withdrawn from the market. Many more lives would be ruined by plunging people like myself back into excruciating anxiety, and thus the miserable hermit-like existence that follows.
Good old-fashioned 'therapy' is often very harsh and unpleasant-it is not a cure and treatments like Cognitive Behavioural Therapy do not address and solve the 'underlying problem'-(if there is one that can be identified!). Like medication they simply treat the external symptoms.
These could be classified as side-effects comparable to the SSRI's.
Sensible and selective prescribing by the physician, and responsible following of the doctor's instructions by the patient should eliminate most of the bad experiences with clonazepam.If anyone out there wants my advice about clonazepam-definitely go for it!
__________________________________________________
Here is another old RemedyFind rating of mine for clonazepam from 2004. I thought long and hard before posting this as it contains a reference to suicidal thoughts. There was concern about triggering suicidal thoughts in others when I posted this on RemedyFind. In fact, people who were feeling that way themselves emailed to tell me of the hope it had given them to hear of another person in the same situation who had found a way out.
__________________________________________________Xanadu (73) [ United Kingdom ]
5/2/2004 9:41:03 PM
Clonazepam- My Wonder Drug for Social Anxiety!
Clonazepam changed my life positively in every way; more than I would ever have believed possible during the previous years in which I existed in isolation, enduring constant fear - a sense of impending doom; and the moments of sheer terror when I was forced to leave the relative safety of my hermitage in order to get provisions and the other bare essentials necessary for survival.I suffer from a severe form of Social Anxiety Disorder, some may call it Avoidant Personality Disorder - but those are simply relative terms used by medics to define a set of symptoms and their severity. I also suffer from recurring depression, which too is often severe.
I have tried all the SSRI's, a few tricyclics, moclobemide, the MAOI isocarboxazid, venlafaxine, mirtazapine, Depakote, trazodone and gabapentin. Also, several psychological therapies. None of these treatments had any beneficial effect on my symptoms of social anxiety, although some did relieve my depression and escitalopram seems to be effective in preventing panic. The problems I find intolerable with the SSRI's are sexual dysfunction (anorgasmia and loss of sexual desire), and emotional numbness.
I had difficulty obtaining clonazepam, not only because it is a benzodiazepine and most medics now subscribe to an anti-benzodiazepine dogma, but also because clonazepam is licensed only as an anti-convulsant for the treatment of epilepsy in the UK.
My usual dose of clonazepam was one 2mg tablet twice daily. Initially I felt sedated and perhaps a little euphoric. These side-effects diminished during the initial days of therapy and were absent after approximately a month of sustained use. During maintenance therapy, which continued over a period of two years, the dose remained at 4mg daily but for one exception during which the dose was increased to 8mg daily for two months to cause night-sedation since I was having difficulty sleeping and my doctor did not want to combine two benzodiazepines. The dose was reduced to the original 4mg daily after this period without taper; withdrawal symptoms were absent.
The maintenance dose of 4mg daily was free of side-effects and maintained the same degree of anxiolysis as in the initial weeks of therapy. I did not develop tolerance to the anxiolytic effects of clonazepam. However, tolerance to the sedative effects was pronounced and rapid. Since in my case long-term sedation was undesirable, then tolerance to this effect was an improvement in suitability and tolerability.
During maintenance therapy with clonazepam I found that I could participate in and enjoy normal activities from which I would previously have fled in terror. I enrolled on a two-year course studying biology, psychology, chemistry and physics at my local college and was awarded several good qualifications.
I was gainfully employed for the first time in my life. One job as a care assistant in a nursing home for the elderly involved constant social interaction with a team of carers, and often with aggressive and argumentative residents. Amazingly, I was able to work effectively in these conditions with little or no pathological anxiety - truly amazing compared to my mental state only months previously.
My psychiatrist recently advised me to reduce the dose of clonazepam. He continued to reduce the dose and my anxiety symptoms gradually increased. Eventually at 0.5mg I decided that such a small dose was probably not worth taking and I should discontinue it altogether.
I had just been appointed a psychiatric nurse who is *very* heavily subscribed to the anti-benzodiazepine dogma. I would go as far as to say he is a borderline fanatic on this issue. He freely admitted - in fact, boasted, as such at our last meeting. I have difficulty believing that my psychiatrist selected him purely by chance.
I made the leap from 0.5mg without taper and yes, I did have the withdrawal syndrome; tinnitus, nausea, vertigo, depression, loss of appetite, loss of body weight, panic attacks and of course, severe anxiety.
The apparent reasoning behind the clonazepam withdrawal was that I would feel much better without it. Ian (the psychiatric nurse) told me everyone he had seen who had undergone benzo' withdrawal told him they felt much better, even colours were brighter, taste of food more enjoyable and had better mood etc. He said he would enjoy saying 'I told you so' when I found his prediction correct.
At the time of writing it has been six weeks since I took my last dose of clonazepam. The withdrawal syndrome faded away at two weeks and I am now left with the original symptoms of Social Anxiety Disorder. I am once again a hermit, and am tormented by the constant criticism of my inner mental voice. Going out into the outside world is - well, feels too bad to adequately describe in words.
Where is the benefit in this? What good has come, and can come from this? I now rely on the state benefit handouts to sustain me since I am unable to work, or even study in my current mental state. I am a burden to society, my family and the few distant friends I now have. I take so much and can give so little in return. This is not the way I want to be or the way I intend to spend the rest of my life.
I have seriously contemplated suicide. Not in a hysterical, tormented frenzy; but in a calm, rational and logical manner. Is there any benefit to my continuing existence in this state? I don't think so.
Sure, my family will miss me - for a while. But how much would the pain caused by my death compare with the pain I experience every waking hour; probably for the rest of my life? And would it *really* be so selfish for me to terminate my own life to end the agony, but *not at all* selfish for those who would wish me to stay alive and endure this simply for their own contentment and vague peace of mind?
Is not expecting a person to endure immense suffering for the purpose of *your* own comfort and the prevention of *your* own pain, not *in itself*, too, an act of selfishness and cowardice? How about having the courage, selflessness, and the empathy to let that person who has suffered so much [and would continue to suffer] be at peace?
I believe that suicide is not, as is commonly; and often thoughtlessly articulated; an act of cowardice. It is an act of either rapid compulsion or an extreme effort of will.
Most people who have actually been that close to the edge know just how much effort of will and extreme anguish the act demands, to go over that point of no return. Of facing the horrifying abyss that is your own death.
The will to live is extremely powerful, and that inherent, instinctive fear of death is in no way diminished simply because suicide is a voluntary act. It takes an enormous effort of will to overcome the opposing forces, thus the motivation for suicide must be one of overwhelming despair and terror of the continuation of living; or the conviction of immense courage and a resolution that death is the only noble and honourable outcome that can result from a terrible situation. Suicide is most certainly *not* a passive act.
Anyway, after my vindication of rational suicide, let's get back to the medication issue.
I simply want to have my life back. Clonazepam can do that - it has never failed me. Surely any reasonable person can see that clonazepam helps me overcome a severe disability. What type of person, I wonder, would willingly inflict and allow this level of suffering to continue for the purpose of their particular beliefs and medical preferences. I don't think any such people should be allowed to work with the vulnerable people in mental healthcare.
I just hope that by some miracle I can get clonazepam back soon, otherwise my feeling that suicide would be the best option would probably increase. And worryingly, I think that during these episodes in my life I actually have the will to carry it out.
UPDATE TO ALL CONCERNED:
I have obtained clonazepam from an online pharmacy. I would not normally break the law and engage in this activity in a major way; nor do I encourage it. However, as those of you who have followed the story so far will already understand, I was in dire circumstances and this could literally have been the deciding point between life and death.
Thanks for listening. Dosage: 2 mg. tablet / wafer
Frequency: 2 x day
Total Length: several years
Brand: Rivotril
9 members found this review helpful. Was this review helpful to you?
__________________________________________________Q
Posted by laima on February 13, 2007, at 16:59:11
In reply to Back from Exile, posted by Quintal on February 13, 2007, at 15:56:22
Sounds balanced to me- I don't think there is any problem in simultaneously recognizing both the therapeutic effects of benzos and the pitfalls. Being unaware of or choosing to ignore the possibility of trouble won't make it not so. Seems best to evalute honestly from time to time whether or not the benefits are outweighing any complications. Glad you're back, too.
Posted by dbc on February 13, 2007, at 18:29:25
In reply to Re: Back from Exile » Quintal, posted by laima on February 13, 2007, at 16:59:11
So you get spanked for harping on the same subject constantly and then you go back to the exact same subject.
Im trying to be nice about this but get some perspective sir.
Posted by Quintal on February 13, 2007, at 19:31:17
In reply to Re: Back from Exile, posted by dbc on February 13, 2007, at 18:29:25
>So you get spanked for harping on the same subject constantly and then you go back to the exact same subject.
So you seem to think my block was more a punitive an act of censorship rather than a true matter of incivility? Thank you for the honesty. I'm starting a thread over at admin on the subject.
>Im trying to be nice about this
Well I've seen no evidence of it(!) I quote:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20070201/msgs/729795.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20070201/msgs/730266.htmlWhere do you think you said anything nice or civil about the subject?
>but get some perspective sir.
Likewise, Sir! :-)
Q
Posted by Quintal on February 13, 2007, at 19:52:36
In reply to Re: Back from Exile » Quintal, posted by laima on February 13, 2007, at 16:59:11
> Sounds balanced to me- I don't think there is any problem in simultaneously recognizing both the therapeutic effects of benzos and the pitfalls. Being unaware of or choosing to ignore the >possibility of trouble won't make it not so. Seems best to evalute honestly from time to time whether or not the benefits are outweighing any complications. Glad you're back, too.
So sanity and reason prevail...........what a relief.
Thank you Laima for the insight and the support.
Q
Posted by Declan on February 13, 2007, at 20:35:25
In reply to Re: Back from Exile » laima, posted by Quintal on February 13, 2007, at 19:52:36
>I don't think there is any problem in simultaneously recognizing both the therapeutic effects of benzos and the pitfalls.<
I agree. Black and white thinking and the party line.
Posted by Phillipa on February 13, 2007, at 20:39:03
In reply to Re: Back from Exile » laima, posted by Quintal on February 13, 2007, at 19:52:36
Q but during the years I have stopped them cold turkey on my own not knowing adverse affects could happen. When life was stable or I was involved with kid, school, divorce and didn't have any problem. Stresses are great right now hence the need. They will once again go down hence to benzo need. I have already cut valium by 5mg and luvox by 25mg. I for one don't think ad's work at least for me. So why risk withdrawal from something I don't want or seem to respond to? Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on February 13, 2007, at 20:41:02
In reply to Re: Back from Exile, posted by Declan on February 13, 2007, at 20:35:25
Also at one point was on 20cc of chloral hydrate, xanax, and klonopin. I stopped the chloral hydrate myself. Love Phillipa ps klonopin depresses me
Posted by laima on February 13, 2007, at 20:51:46
In reply to Re: Back from Exile, posted by Declan on February 13, 2007, at 20:35:25
Gray thinking is the most controversial and unpopular sort, it seems to me, no matter what the topic. Speaking abstractly here, party lines look to have a lot more pizzazz and reassuring certainty to them.
> >I don't think there is any problem in simultaneously recognizing both the therapeutic effects of benzos and the pitfalls.<
>
> I agree. Black and white thinking and the party line.
Posted by Quintal on February 13, 2007, at 20:58:44
In reply to Re: Back from Exile » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on February 13, 2007, at 20:39:03
>Q but during the years I have stopped them cold turkey on my own not knowing adverse affects could happen
Maybe a longer taper would have been easier and more tolerable for you?
>When life was stable or I was involved with kid, school, divorce and didn't have any problem. Stresses are great right now hence the need. They will once again go down hence to benzo need. I have already cut Valium by 5mg and luvox by 25mg. I for one don't think ad's work at least for me. So why risk withdrawal from something I don't want or seem to respond to? Love Phillipa
I can't really get a grasp of what you're saying there Phillipa. I'm not trying to get you off them per se, but when you keep posting about your continued problems with severe anxiety and insomnia despite taking two benzos and a third benzo-like hypnotic I honestly wonder how much they are really helping you. If you were taking benzos and were happy and symptom free then I would have no problem with the idea of you continuing with them, but that isn't the case. As has been suggested before, it seems very likely that you've developed tolerance to them and though you cling to the idea they are helping you in fact they may only be keeping you in a state of semi-withdrawal; i.e. you get withdrawal symptoms during the day and only a few hours of relief at night, since that's when you taken them all.
Lowering your dose in this case makes little sense - better to go off them altogether and give yourself a chance to adjust. Either that or raise the dose a bit if your pdoc will allow it and maybe take the Xanax through the day as I emailed you? I'll paste the table I sent you here just in case you lost it.
__________________________________________________Breakfast:
0.25mg Xanax (~equivalent to 5mg Valium)
Lunch:
0.25mg Xanax (~equivalent to 5mg Valium)
Dinner:
0.25mg Xanax (~equivalent to 5mg Valium)
Supper/Bedtime:
Either: 0.5mg Xanax and 3mg Lunesta OR: (and I would recommend this if your pdoc would allow it) increase your Lunesta to 6mg (equivalent to 20mg Valium) and take that as a single dose at night.
Here is a benzodiazepine equivalence so you can check the doses yourself:
http://www.bcnc.org.uk/equivalence.html
__________________________________________________You could also try cross-tapering your benzos with Lyrica or simply adding it to the benzos as an augmenter. Of course there's the added complication of the Synthroid and hyperactive thyroid gland. Maybe the benzos have been masking the effect of the Synthroid - you could in fact need a lower dose?
Q
Posted by laima on February 13, 2007, at 21:40:05
In reply to Re: Back from Exile » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on February 13, 2007, at 20:58:44
I cautiously would say Quinton's on to something worth considering. I also wonder if just cutting down a little on any benzos would be pointless in that it would put you in a greater state of withdrawal, if that does turn out to be the case of what may be happening. (?) I'd almost suspect you'd be better off either just switching your dosage times around strategically and/or not cutting, or cutting them out for a period altogether (tapering properly, of course).
Strategically- I mean, for example, (and pending doctor's approval), what if you took the long lasting valium earlier in the evening, and then it could wear off by morning so you wouldn't feel groggy then? If you took valium earlier in the day, and couldn't sleep at night as a result, what if you then took the xanax at bedtime, with the thought it would be easily worn off by morning? That kind of thing- but again of course, a doctor would have to figure some of that out and approve it.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on February 14, 2007, at 3:06:20
In reply to Back from Exile, posted by Quintal on February 13, 2007, at 15:56:22
Posted by Klavot on February 14, 2007, at 9:09:35
In reply to Re: Back from Exile, posted by dbc on February 13, 2007, at 18:29:25
I don't think Quintal was blocked for "harping on the same subject", by which you presumably mean talking about benzodiazepines / Ashton; he was blocked for being uncivil as defined by Psycho-Babble rules. Thus I see no problem with his continuing the benzodiazepine / Ashton discussion.
Klavot
> So you get spanked for harping on the same subject constantly and then you go back to the exact same subject.
>
> Im trying to be nice about this but get some perspective sir.
Posted by liliths on February 16, 2007, at 14:45:29
In reply to Back from Exile, posted by Quintal on February 13, 2007, at 15:56:22
Posted by Quintal on February 17, 2007, at 20:30:41
In reply to Re: Back from Exile: Welcome back Q! (nm) » Quintal, posted by liliths on February 16, 2007, at 14:45:29
Thanks liliths, I didn't see any new posts or threads about what came of your hearing. You must have had it by now? How are you and what happened?
Q
Posted by liliths on February 19, 2007, at 12:09:11
In reply to Re: Back from Exile: Welcome back Q! » liliths, posted by Quintal on February 17, 2007, at 20:30:41
hi Q
thanks for asking - it's a big mess
I did post an update on the work board after the hearing:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/work/20061208/msgs/723561.htmlbut have since had things happen... such as actually getting a copy of their contract, which has caused me to have a fit!
It's a 'standard' addict/alcoholic's contract and since I'm neither, I can't see the point in complying with something so stringent. I must make daily calls to 'discover' if it's my day to get to a lab within 12 hours (though they won't tell you where the labs are until you sign so you haven't a clue how far you may have to travel) and pee in front of someone (of course, at your own expense), ALL my doctors must provide quarterly reports (again at my own expense), I must obtain approval for EVERY prescription medication before being allowed to take it and I'm not allowed ANY alcohol
does ANY of this even make sense to you?? And the contract that they get fat off the state from is for 5 f***ing years!!
there's supposedly an appeals process but damned if I can get anyone to help me figure it out and the clock's ticking... which means if I want to appeal, I obviously have to get a lawyer. That means looking at legal aid or something but it means making an effort I'm too tired to make. Every earlier attempt tp speak with an atty was a bust. Bewteen PRN being a big dog no one wants to touch to the fact that they all react when they hear the word "painkiller" and immediately assume I am an addict. It doesn't matter that in 5 years, I never needed to change my therapeutic dose... nor that I've since stopped it. Though I had oral surgery last week and I will say, that's one of the perks of not taking it daily - it is more effective for pain LOL
they've made the entire experience so awful... it's simply not worth fighting for anymore. I won't pretend I'm not miserable about it, but I also won't pretend to have any energy left to fight a grinding machine, which only seems to chew me up and spit me out.
I've been off the hydro for awhile. Starting taking tianeptine, which seems to help some - particularly in the mornings when I take my ADD meds.
but they don't make a pill to stabilize a depression created by external sources. Even the hydro doesn't make me feel better enough anymore. I barely leave the house and just feel frozen into a kind of blank emptiness
nothing gets through. I tell myself I don't care - it's time to move forward but at night instead of sleeping, my head rants about this and I wake up dreading every moment of every day
haven't posted much here because even writing has become hard and I do apologize, as I appear to be having a particularly vicious day
I'm angry with no outlet and no energy to even bother finding one
I'd better go - nothing good's coming out of this post - again, I do apologize for whining
namaste,
lilith> Thanks liliths, I didn't see any new posts or threads about what came of your hearing. You must have had it by now? How are you and what happened?
>
> Q
Posted by Phillipa on February 19, 2007, at 19:18:14
In reply to Re: Back from Exile: Welcome back Q! » Quintal, posted by liliths on February 19, 2007, at 12:09:11
Simply horrible. I think by now I wouldn't even want to be part of the profession. So that's what happens to honest people? Not fair and you deserve better. I'm so sorry. Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on February 19, 2007, at 21:57:06
In reply to Re: Back from Exile: Welcome back Q! » Quintal, posted by liliths on February 19, 2007, at 12:09:11
I'm sorry to hear that lilith. I don't watch the work board so that'll be why I didn't see your posts.
>does ANY of this even make sense to you?? And the contract that they get fat off the state from is for 5 f***ing years!!
I don't understand why you can't have any alcohol. It only makes sense as a way of Big Brother flexing his muscles and throwing his weight around. It makes me angry to hear what they're doing to you.
I don't really know what to say other than I feel for you and wish I could have done more to help you through the whole process. I hope you can find a way of getting back into work or doing something you enjoy. I remember you saying you worked in a few different fields a while ago. could you try to find work there again?
How about taking up (again I know) a new career path or training course?
Q
Posted by liliths on February 20, 2007, at 7:21:08
In reply to Re: Back from Exile: Welcome back Q! » liliths, posted by Phillipa on February 19, 2007, at 19:18:14
hi Philippa
thank you so much for your support. You're right, I don't want to do it anymore... this nightmare just sucked the dream out of me
on the other hand, I've already paid the damn state for my license, gave up my house and 2 years of my life to accomplish this, got good grades, passed the damn Certification Boards and even already belong to the professional organizations. Ironic, I have insurance for something I'm not allowed to practice. It never occurred to me that this would happen.
Totally floored me... and basically is killing me. You're right, I didn't deserve it and that's what makes it that much harder to accept. Realizing how little I really matter as an individual hasn't been easy at my age. This was my last shot at getting back on my feet. Now I can't even leave the house
I may not see myself practicing, but at the same time, I HATE just giving up and letting them win. Though the truth is, since I have been unable to get anyone to even tell me how to go about the appeals process, I haven't the energy to fight anymore. I'm just afraid if I let it pass without doing something, I'll hate myself even more for the failure
yes, this IS what happens to honest people! Imagine, if I hadn't checked the damn box admitting to be treated, I'd actually have gotten my license, no questions asked, months ago.
My doctors assured me I wouldn't be discriminated against, that being honest was the best way to deal with it, and I knew that if I didn't admit it and it caught up to me, I'd be guilty of committing fraud. I didn't think I had any reason NOT to be honest. I do prefer to be truthful. It is my first reaction
But I'm SO sorry now. I certainly learned my lesson... though it's too late
you really are a lovely light on this board :)
thanks again.. hope you have a glorious day
namaste,
lilith> Simply horrible. I think by now I wouldn't even want to be part of the profession. So that's what happens to honest people? Not fair and you deserve better. I'm so sorry. Love Phillipa
Posted by liliths on February 20, 2007, at 7:34:56
In reply to Re: Back from Exile: Welcome back Q! » liliths, posted by Quintal on February 19, 2007, at 21:57:06
good morning Q
reading your post brought tears to my eyes because I know you really do wish there was something you could've done.
This board is the only place that really 'gets' what I've gone through. I've had to sever most of my friendships, barely leave the house. I know most people just think I am being 'difficult and selfish' as I just don't have the energy to take care of anyone, much less fake feeling 'fine' in order to go out
the whole contract IS simply about control... and $$. PRN gets off on controlling me (particularly as I fought back) and their contracts net them a lot of money.. from the state, from the labs they use, from me
yes, I've done many things... the problem is I no longer even know how to go out anymore, much less look for work. And in some of my fields, I'm simply too old. Younger, more eager and now better educated people are out there in droves. I put so much time into going back to school, I lost a lot of my creative edge.... and my confidence.
Being treated like this hasn't brought out the best in me.
I keep wishing for a terminal illness. It would makes things SO much easier. I don't even have the energy to kill myself. I'm too aware of the huge mess I'd be leaving behind for those I care about to clean up. I keep saying I have get everything in order first and that's a LOT of work... even on a good day, I barely make a dent. LOL it's funny AND pitiful
hope things are going well.
As always, I thank you simply for being you :)namaste,
lilith> I'm sorry to hear that lilith. I don't watch the work board so that'll be why I didn't see your posts.
>
> >does ANY of this even make sense to you?? And the contract that they get fat off the state from is for 5 f***ing years!!
>
> I don't understand why you can't have any alcohol. It only makes sense as a way of Big Brother flexing his muscles and throwing his weight around. It makes me angry to hear what they're doing to you.
>
> I don't really know what to say other than I feel for you and wish I could have done more to help you through the whole process. I hope you can find a way of getting back into work or doing something you enjoy. I remember you saying you worked in a few different fields a while ago. could you try to find work there again?
>
> How about taking up (again I know) a new career path or training course?
>
> Q
Posted by Quintal on February 20, 2007, at 22:34:49
In reply to Re: Back from Exile: Welcome back Q! » Quintal, posted by liliths on February 20, 2007, at 7:34:56
Hi Lilith,
>I keep wishing for a terminal illness. It would makes things SO much easier. I don't even have the energy to kill myself. I'm too aware of the huge mess I'd be leaving behind for those I care about to clean up. I keep saying I have get everything in order first and that's a LOT of work... even on a good day, I barely make a dent. LOL it's funny AND pitiful
I know, I've often wished for cancer too. Nothing awful and sad like motor neurone, maybe something heroic like leukemia as in that film with Julia Roberts. I actually think it might, perversely, give me a stronger sense of purpose and the will to live. This may change of course if it ever actually happens (and I'm certain it will - just at the time I've found the perfect antidepressant/anxiolytic and my life is back on track).
How is the tianeptine going? I liked it myself but I took it with reboxetine which unfortunately made me panicky and anxious.I'm in the process of weaning myself off codeine, and it's not too bad so far.
Q
Posted by liliths on February 21, 2007, at 12:09:45
In reply to Re: Back from Exile: Welcome back Q! » liliths, posted by Quintal on February 20, 2007, at 22:34:49
Hi Quintal
that's exactly how I feel... you nailed it :)
I'm so dysfunctional lately, it's hard to tell if anything really gets through so I'm not sure about tianeptine.. it's a subtle drug. I do seem to feel it in the morning with my ADD meds, but the afternoon dose doesn't seem to do a thing. I'm considering going back on wellbutrin in the afternoon, hoping maybe they'd work well together. Otherwise, I may just take it in the morning. Since it's expensive, that'd help make it last longer too.
I've also considered looking into Piracetam just to augment my lazy brain LOL
would kratom help wean off the codeine? I hope it's going well. Are you being forced off or just taking a break?
namaste,
lilith
> Hi Lilith,
> I know, I've often wished for cancer too. Nothing awful and sad like motor neurone, maybe something heroic like leukemia as in that film with Julia Roberts. I actually think it might, perversely, give me a stronger sense of purpose and the will to live. This may change of course if it ever actually happens (and I'm certain it will - just at the time I've found the perfect antidepressant/anxiolytic and my life is back on track).
>
> How is the tianeptine going? I liked it myself but I took it with reboxetine which unfortunately made me panicky and anxious.I'm in the process of weaning myself off codeine, and it's not too bad so far.
>
> Q
Posted by Quintal on February 21, 2007, at 15:19:25
In reply to Re: Back from Exile: Welcome back Q! » Quintal, posted by liliths on February 21, 2007, at 12:09:45
Oh liliths,
I don't know how I get myself into these things - it's funny you should mention piracetam. I ordered some earlier today along with tianeptine and other nootropics like picamilon (I know it isn't supposed work, but what the hell, there's still placebo to fall back on). I have to use PayPal because all my main cards have bounced and I'm stuck with a crappy 'Solo' debit card. Anyway, the guy who runs it sent me two emails back asking me why I'd used the wrong site, and why had I emailed him instead of using the order form on the website........ I was just following instructions (which happened to be 3 years out of date). Now he's sent me two irate emails asking why the Hell haven't I answered the phone? - he's been trying to ring me.
So where is the problem I hear you ask? Under normal circumstances this would be fine of course, but I need the tianeptine et al for social phobia, and to get it I now have to pick up the phone (which is set on silent mode so I can get some peace from all the irate debt collectors that are baying for my blood), and converse not only with a complete stranger, but with an aggrieved and aggressive, larger than life scary American dude of a stranger. All of this while risking answering the phone to one of the debt collectors by mistake. And then they'll know.
I'm having palpitations at the thought of it. Don't know what to do. If I let it go he might put me down as a time waster and never entertain my custom again, so I won't be able to get tianeptine as that is the only site I know of that accepts PayPal where I can use my Solo card. I'm not entirely sure why I'm bothering to try it again to be honest. Curiosity and lack of side effects I suppose. And to be sociable, so I can be on the same drugs as my bestest friends here...............if only Phillipa would ditch her Luvox and join in too we could all share the fun. Are you up for it Phillipa?
I'm going off codeine because I seem to have developed tolerance to it. I've decided to make a clean break. I tried some Kratom the other day but it didn't seem to bother itself enough to have any effect at all, and if it's going to be like that then I want nothing to do with it either.
Q
Posted by liliths on February 21, 2007, at 15:47:59
In reply to Re: Back from Exile: Welcome back Q! » liliths, posted by Quintal on February 21, 2007, at 15:19:25
oh wow Q
what you wrote makes such perfect sense to me... it's so much the way I am these days as well. And how funny about the piracetam!
I wish the tianeptine was helping my anti-social behavior but it hasn't touched it. I'm still sitting in the house, day after day, dreading every damn second... scared the phone will ring, scared at what I've become... scared I'll just keep getting worse
you know - and you really DO know this - that you CAN deal with this guy if you have to.. and it sounds like you have to... do you have a number for him? would be easier to force yourself to call? (this from someone who hasn't been able to pick up the phone in weeks! - gotta laugh at myself for that one)
BUT YOU CAN DO IT! I know you can. Have you listened to your messages? Does he leave contact info?
I can't answer my phone on a good day without screening so I know who I'm picking up for. Can you do that? Turn the volume on and when it's a collector, turn it down so you don't have to listen
You can also email him and simply explain your mistake... that you were looking at an old cached site.
You might want to also tell him you're going through a rough time, which is why you're ordering the tianeptine in the first place. You're depressed! He probably won't get it BUT on the other hand, your communication might be enough to placate him. And at least email IS easier contact than the phone :)
and yes, if a drug isn't working, there's no point taking it. A break will do you good... except for now, when you could use some help. But it will work again after the break.. you know that
it's funny, but you're so right. This board is where my friends live as well as the only place I can go where people understand. That alone is simply staggering
take a deep breath.... take another... 1 more for good measure
s-t-r-e-t-c-h
you're going to be ok :)
You're not alone in this and even though we're not in the room with you, you're right here in oh-so-many hearts
You've been there for so many people. You're resiliant. You're strong. You're compassionate. No silly salesman can take that away
namaste and a ((BIG HUG)) from a distance so it's not too scary :)
lilith> Oh liliths,
>
> I don't know how I get myself into these things - it's funny you should mention piracetam. I ordered some earlier today along with tianeptine and other nootropics like picamilon (I know it isn't supposed work, but what the hell, there's still placebo to fall back on). I have to use PayPal because all my main cards have bounced and I'm stuck with a crappy 'Solo' debit card. Anyway, the guy who runs it sent me two emails back asking me why I'd used the wrong site, and why had I emailed him instead of using the order form on the website........ I was just following instructions (which happened to be 3 years out of date). Now he's sent me two irate emails asking why the Hell haven't I answered the phone? - he's been trying to ring me.
>
> So where is the problem I hear you ask? Under normal circumstances this would be fine of course, but I need the tianeptine et al for social phobia, and to get it I now have to pick up the phone (which is set on silent mode so I can get some peace from all the irate debt collectors that are baying for my blood), and converse not only with a complete stranger, but with an aggrieved and aggressive, larger than life scary American dude of a stranger. All of this while risking answering the phone to one of the debt collectors by mistake. And then they'll know.
>
> I'm having palpitations at the thought of it. Don't know what to do. If I let it go he might put me down as a time waster and never entertain my custom again, so I won't be able to get tianeptine as that is the only site I know of that accepts PayPal where I can use my Solo card. I'm not entirely sure why I'm bothering to try it again to be honest. Curiosity and lack of side effects I suppose. And to be sociable, so I can be on the same drugs as my bestest friends here...............if only Phillipa would ditch her Luvox and join in too we could all share the fun. Are you up for it Phillipa?
>
> I'm going off codeine because I seem to have developed tolerance to it. I've decided to make a clean break. I tried some Kratom the other day but it didn't seem to bother itself enough to have any effect at all, and if it's going to be like that then I want nothing to do with it either.
>
> Q
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