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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Hermit on June 20, 2006, at 10:02:21
In reply to Re: SSRIs » Tomatheus, posted by fuchsia on June 20, 2006, at 5:57:55
>> SSRIs gave me bipolar II (I think, anyway).
Many years ago, Prozac did the same thing to me. My moods were all over the place! Since then, I've been on every antidepressant known, the last being Lexapro which worked the best.
Hermit
Posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 13:00:16
In reply to Narcissist Repents » Declan, posted by Declan on June 20, 2006, at 2:53:11
my dearest declan.
i don't think you're a narcissist for the simple reason that even a 'depressed and depleted' (btw, i loved that!) one would NEVER post on any pych or psych meds forum. they are FAR too sure - even when 'depressed and depleted ' - that they're always right, it's everyone else who is an idiot and/ or wrong. they would NEVER ask for help or other's opinions, much less entertain feedback. they'd not EVER show the humility that you have in your above post:
< Adopting the mandarin style as a cover for ex post facto rationalisation and this forum as an opportunity for creative writing....what do I know? >
(snip)
< (Every statement I make is almost false.) >
i emailed another of your humorous comments to my therapist yesterday. you'd given me the best laugh i'd had in years. i can't thank you for that enough.
now, please don't let this 'turn you into' a narcissist. of course, i know that's not even possible.
my enduring regards,
pulse
Posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 13:44:23
In reply to Narcissist Repents » Declan, posted by Declan on June 20, 2006, at 2:53:11
p.s. - my dad - age 86 - IS both a depressed and depleted AND a cerebral and asexual narcissist. he just keeps getting moreso.
you still couldn't get him in here, even by putting a luger to his head.
pulse.
Posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 13:48:40
In reply to Re: Narcissist Repents » Declan, posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 13:44:23
and ALL,
sorry for 3 extra copies of my last post. sheesh...
~ pulse
Posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2006, at 14:26:18
In reply to Server Probs Again or Time of Day? » pulse, posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 13:48:40
My computer is running slow on babble. Love Phillipa
Posted by Declan on June 20, 2006, at 14:33:34
In reply to Re: Narcissist Repents » Declan, posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 13:00:16
Thankyou thankyou thankyou, Pulse, you're too kind. I have actually read the Narcissist section of the DSMIV....I assume it's the first thing everyone looks for, to see if there's anyone they know.....and, uhhm I *think* psychoanalysis says we all were, or something....Thankyou again, you never know here who you are speaking to.
Declan
Posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:13:25
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by flmm on June 19, 2006, at 19:51:26
Nobody here is suggesting that the euphoric feeling that opiates give at first is the antidepressant response.
Some people actually feel euphoric on an antidepressant for the first little while, yet they can still continue to gain a theraputic effect once the euphoria has worn off.
Take Nardil for instance. Many people notice that during the first month's usage, they feel euphoric. Though, even after this wares off many people continue to gain a theraputic effect against depression.
Sure, there are going to be those who will continue to chase after that euphoric feeling (not mentioning any names).
Some doctors are actually uncomfortable with the fact that MAOI's can often produce this initial effect, and won't prescribe them based on this.
What we are trying to do here, is to find out if a person can take an opiate (beyond the timeframe to end euphoria) and still gain a theraputic effect at a constant dose.
It seems that a growing number of patients claim this is the case. Are these patients junkies? If so, why would they remain satisfied at a fixed dose ?
Sure the opiate receptors will adjust to the increased opiate agonism and downregulate, but so too will serotonin receptors in the presence of SSRI's.
Who was it who posted a study not too long ago that said that morphine was equal to imipramine for treating melancholic depression at fixed doses, and relapse occured upon withdrawl of either agent.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:18:24
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by flmm on June 19, 2006, at 20:03:05
>Just because they are hard to get off of does >not mean they are not effective, constructive >drugs. Opiates, on the other hand , are clearly >destructive. SSRI med are very powerfull, and >need to be handled with more care then most >people think. But for most people, they give >them their lives back!
For a little while I suppose. I have yet to meet "anybody" who will contend that their fixed dose of SSRI antidepressant is as effective as it was when it first worked. I have probably asked that question to >=50 people I have met over the years.
The conscensious I repeatedly get from friends and family is that, sure it worked at first, but now I don't notice much at all. I basically just feel like a zombie.
The number of people who have associated the word SSRI with zombie is quite large.
Many polls rate effexor and paxil as harder to get off than prescription opiates used for pain.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:19:29
In reply to SSRIs » flmm, posted by Tomatheus on June 19, 2006, at 21:14:30
People don't get better on SSRI's, they get better in spite of SSRI's.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:30:46
In reply to Re: SSRIs » Tomatheus, posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:19:29
There have actually been some theories as to some of the possible targets for opiates in mood disorders.
Opiates may kill pain in one area of the brain, create euporia in another, and perhaps regulate certain substances in the emotional regulating parts of the brain.
You've got the TCA's which have effects on opiates in certain limbic regions. Thats why they can be used in certain pain syndromes. Perhaps more selective opiate targets would provide an antidepressant effect without activating the pleasure centres of the brain directly.
With substance P inhibitors (NK-1?) antagonists, I suppose researchers are trying to tease appart some of these effects. Perhaps limbic regulation of substance P is a target. Perhaps interaction with other neuropeptides (ie neuropeptidy Y which has marked antidepressant effect) could be responsible.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:31:19
In reply to Re: SSRIs » Tomatheus, posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:19:29
There have actually been some theories as to some of the possible targets for opiates in mood disorders.
Opiates may kill pain in one area of the brain, create euporia in another, and perhaps regulate certain substances in the emotional regulating parts of the brain.
You've got the TCA's which have effects on opiates in certain limbic regions. Thats why they can be used in certain pain syndromes. Perhaps more selective opiate targets would provide an antidepressant effect without activating the pleasure centres of the brain directly.
With substance P inhibitors (NK-1?) antagonists, I suppose researchers are trying to tease appart some of these effects. Perhaps limbic regulation of substance P is a target. Perhaps interaction with other neuropeptides (ie neuropeptidy Y which has marked antidepressant effect) could be responsible.
Linkadge
Posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 17:48:14
In reply to Re: Narcissist Repents » pulse, posted by Declan on June 20, 2006, at 14:33:34
Declan, you're most welcome.
< you never know here who you are speaking to >
yep, i've surely found that one out. i just ignore them, once i'm onto them. btw, that CAN be learned, then fairly quickly and easily done.
they always let slip or otherwise give their true agenda/s away. it can even be in the guise of kindness, when it's really ALL about control.
we're only narcissicts when what we're putting forth about ourselves is a self-aggrandizing exaggeration, if not an outright lie.
if what we say about ourselves is, instead, true, then we're just comfortable (enough) in or own skin, even if slightly neurotic!, with a decent amount of self-esteem and healthy self-interest - in contrast to the npd's extreme selfishness and complete self-absorbtion.
pulse
Posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 17:57:23
In reply to Re: Server Probs Again or Time of Day? » pulse, posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2006, at 14:26:18
i read dr. bob said he better pay his server bill. ha!
so, you think it's just our own computers and only on babble? seems to me it happens last few days at my time noon and 5-6 pm - 'lunch' and 'dinner.' so, maybe alot of folks on here then. (?)
i'm in ohio. did i read that you're now in north carolina, or am i thinking of someone else? if so, i believe we're in the same time- zone.
best,
pulse
Posted by Donna Louise on June 20, 2006, at 18:18:59
In reply to Re: Opiates » flmm, posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:13:25
> Nobody here is suggesting that the euphoric feeling that opiates give at first is the antidepressant response.
>
> Some people actually feel euphoric on an antidepressant for the first little while, yet they can still continue to gain a theraputic effect once the euphoria has worn off.
>
> Take Nardil for instance. Many people notice that during the first month's usage, they feel euphoric. Though, even after this wares off many people continue to gain a theraputic effect against depression.
>
> Sure, there are going to be those who will continue to chase after that euphoric feeling (not mentioning any names).
>
> Some doctors are actually uncomfortable with the fact that MAOI's can often produce this initial effect, and won't prescribe them based on this.
>
> What we are trying to do here, is to find out if a person can take an opiate (beyond the timeframe to end euphoria) and still gain a theraputic effect at a constant dose.
>
> It seems that a growing number of patients claim this is the case. Are these patients junkies? If so, why would they remain satisfied at a fixed dose ?
>
> Sure the opiate receptors will adjust to the increased opiate agonism and downregulate, but so too will serotonin receptors in the presence of SSRI's.
>
> Who was it who posted a study not too long ago that said that morphine was equal to imipramine for treating melancholic depression at fixed doses, and relapse occured upon withdrawl of either agent.
>
>
> LinkadgeYes, you are right about the euphoria being possible with an ssri. The first tiime I took Paxil, I felt like I had taken a valium, which feels really good to me. The next time, I just felt really good. Both times my husband said I was acting like I was high although I didn't feel high the second time. These good feelings wore off of course. And I don't think it was med induced hypomania, it has not happened on any other drug.
donna
Posted by Donna Louise on June 20, 2006, at 18:21:11
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:18:24
> >Just because they are hard to get off of does >not mean they are not effective, constructive >drugs. Opiates, on the other hand , are clearly >destructive. SSRI med are very powerfull, and >need to be handled with more care then most >people think. But for most people, they give >them their lives back!
>
> For a little while I suppose. I have yet to meet "anybody" who will contend that their fixed dose of SSRI antidepressant is as effective as it was when it first worked. I have probably asked that question to >=50 people I have met over the years.
>
> The conscensious I repeatedly get from friends and family is that, sure it worked at first, but now I don't notice much at all. I basically just feel like a zombie.
>
> The number of people who have associated the word SSRI with zombie is quite large.
>
> Many polls rate effexor and paxil as harder to get off than prescription opiates used for pain.
>
>
>
> Linkadge
Everything you have said here has been the absolute truth of my experience with sri's.donna
Posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2006, at 20:04:53
In reply to Re: Server Probs Again or Time of Day? » Phillipa, posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 17:57:23
Pulse you have a good memory yes I'm in North Carolina. Love Phillipa
Posted by pulse on June 21, 2006, at 4:37:29
In reply to Re: Server Probs Again or Time of Day? » pulse, posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2006, at 20:04:53
> Pulse you have a good memory yes I'm in North Carolina. Love Phillipa
Phillipa, i'd thought i was slipping re: my memory. i can't thank you enough.
pulse
Posted by Hermit on June 21, 2006, at 12:36:59
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by flmm on June 19, 2006, at 19:51:26
> Where in my posts does it say I did not feel "Good" on them?
Ok, now I'm confused. LOL! I looked at my prior post, and I didn't see any reference from me about you not feeling good on them. (My head hurts.) :o)
> All I meant was that, just like all addictive cns depressant drugs, you are chasing something you will never catch.
Ah, there's the misunderstanding. If I were taking any opiate to chase the high, you're right -- I would never catch it, because it takes more and more to get there. I'm only talking about taking just enough to handle fatigue and depression, which for me is very little. That dose never changes, at least not for me.
> I felt great for awhile, then it got beyond depression, even though i really never upped my dosage.
Yes, some people (maybe most, I don't know) do end up getting sort of immune to it. That's the point I would stop (or taper) for at least a month. I would be a lame month, but that's the only way you can avoid chasing it up.
> SSRI meds do not work this way! You can lie to yourselves or your doctors all you want, but you know the truth!
The problem here is that SSRI's are harmful to your brain and actually cause anatomical changes with prolonged use. Opiates, when RESPONSIBLY used, don't cause any damage whatsoever.
> I know all about the tricks opiates and other addictive drugs can play on you! SSRI med might be dull, but for most, they even people out, not make them "HIGH"! Been down those roads before!
I completely agree with you if we were talking about using opiates for getting high. It just doesn't work. But for maintenance control of fatigue and depression, I still say they can't be beat.
Hermit
Posted by Hermit on June 21, 2006, at 12:38:37
In reply to Re: Opiates » flmm, posted by Declan on June 19, 2006, at 19:57:06
> I've never taken SSRIs but one thing you can say about them is that people get off them in a way that they do not usually get off methadone.
Just FYI, this is a post from someone in another forum:
"SRIs are some of the most physically addictive drugs in existence. To suddenly stop taking them is to feel so very much worse than you were feeling before you ever considered taking meds. There's a term, "brain shivers." You'll know it if you ever experience it. Mouse and I have kicked opiates and we have kicked SSRIs cold turkey. We'll take the opiate kick."
Hermit
Posted by Hermit on June 21, 2006, at 12:43:45
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by flmm on June 19, 2006, at 20:03:05
> Just because they are hard to get off of does not mean they are not effective, constructive drugs. Opiates, on the other hand , are clearly destructive.
Sorry, the facts say otherwise. If people abuse them, then their compulsive behavior gets them in trouble. But there is absolutely no evidence that opiates do any harm to one's body. (Overdose is another issue, but NOT an issue to those who use responsibly.)
> SSRI med are very powerfull, and need to be handled with more care then most people think. But for most people, they give them their lives back!
I'm sincerely happy that the SSRI's have helped you so much. They helped me a GREAT deal, too! In my case, I've weighed the pro's and con's using the available current research, and based on that research, I've decided that opiates are better. I'm not saying anyone here should take opiates! I'm saying this is the choice I made for ME.
Peace,
Hermit
Posted by Hermit on June 21, 2006, at 18:09:35
In reply to SSRIs » flmm, posted by Tomatheus on June 19, 2006, at 21:14:30
> > > Or how about this: if anybody out there reading this has been "given their life back" (or even benefited in a significant way) from taking an SSRI, why don't you tell us about it?
Actually, after trying several SSRI's over a span of 12 years, I finally did find out that I could say "gave me my life back." That was Lexapro. After reading up on it, though, I'm in the process of stopping that completely. (I found something else, anyway.)
SSRI's DO help some people. I don't think it's the best solution, however.
Hermit
Posted by linkadge on June 21, 2006, at 19:06:58
In reply to Re: SSRIs, posted by Hermit on June 21, 2006, at 18:09:35
Sure, they do help some people. They harm some people too.
Linkadge
Posted by flmm on June 21, 2006, at 21:48:07
In reply to Re: SSRIs, posted by Hermit on June 21, 2006, at 18:09:35
For people so anti-drugs, you guys sure know a lot about them! SSRI meds help me, my wife, and 2 of my 3 sisters, to name a few. Sure they are not perfect. But not too long ago we would all have been in the wacko-house! They help me personally function enough to get to work and live a productive life. Same with many of my friends and family! I am gratefull they exist, cause i would be done! Anxiety and depression are very serious and the drugs that treat them are some of the best medicine has to offer. The successes of these drugs will not be heard from on this board! This board is for something else, I am still trying to figure out what that is............
Posted by Paulbwell on June 21, 2006, at 22:54:08
In reply to SSRIs » flmm, posted by Tomatheus on June 19, 2006, at 21:14:30
> The fact of the matter is that most of these so-called "soft" forms of bipolar disorder never existed before the SSRIs were introduced.
Prozac has been documented to worsen depression, into Manic depression, a more serious disorder.
I have 'issues' when i read of a ~60~70yo person (with no history of mania) being treateted with Prozac-becoming manic, and Docs saying "it only bought out an underlying mania"-YER RIGHT!!
NO-the damn Prozac made them manic-ok Doc?
cheers
Posted by Paulbwell on June 21, 2006, at 23:12:16
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by Hermit on June 21, 2006, at 12:38:37
""SRIs are some of the most physically addictive drugs in existence. To suddenly stop taking them is to feel so very much worse than you were feeling before you ever considered taking meds. There's a term, "brain shivers." You'll know it if you ever experience it. Mouse and I have kicked opiates and we have kicked SSRIs cold turkey. We'll take the opiate kick."
Hermit
Well perhaps the first PDoc i ever saw in 94' should have scripted me Opi's instead of the cure-all Prozac at that time? would i be a junkie today? who knows, but Prozac was relatively easy to get off-despite the 20kgs of fat i put on:(.
Cheers
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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