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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 136 to 160 of 297. Go back in thread:
Posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 20:12:46
In reply to Re: Yes, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:11:04
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:17:03
In reply to Re: whoa » linkadge, posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 19:38:34
Well any placebo would do, but other than that nutritional therapies might actually get to the heart of some of the imballances. Time and stress reduction heal many depressions.
Linakdge
Posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 20:19:50
In reply to Re: whoa, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:17:03
true for some but i did all that and years of therapy w/o meds.. i tried everything to NOT be on A/D's. i thought i could 'overcome' the depression but that wasn't the case.
Posted by zeugma on March 2, 2006, at 20:30:29
In reply to Re: Yes » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 15:45:56
Reminds me of how studies on buspirone found that those who had previously used a benzodiazepine for anxiety did not respond to Buspar. The investigators did all sorts of stupid theorizing about this, but it is obvious that what that shows is that once someone knows what a real anxiolytic drug is like, they do not readily respond to placebos.
>>Just pulling this out of the thread cause I am a bit exhausted. Buspirone is and was mislabelled and mismarketed, and is worse than imipramine for benzodiazepine withdrawal (a set of investigators was foolish enough to waste money, no doubt funded by Bristol Myers Squibb, on this study) but that does not make it a placebo.
-z
Posted by TylerJ on March 2, 2006, at 20:34:13
In reply to Re: Opinions » TylerJ, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 19:15:07
> I have been using a herb called Fo-ti, which is one of the strongest herbal MAO-B inhibitors available. I would like to try the patch to see if it has a similar effect. (since fo-ti has estrogenic effects and I don't want to take it too long)
>
> Although, I am in canada. I don't know if I'd have the have the courage to bring it up to my doctor.
>
>
> Linkadge
Cool, I'm glad it's working for you. If I ever need to try something else, I'm going to try "The Patch" as well. Good Luck.Tyler
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:34:47
In reply to Re: Yes » linkadge, posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 19:46:50
Have you tried to come off the meds? I remember thinking to myself. I'm not addicted to effexor, and then when I started to come off I couldn't move my eyes for 7 months without having a brain zap. I couldn't walk in a straight line. I couldn't sleep. I couldn't add two numbers together. Brain shivers, brain zaps. Suicidiality that surpassed anthing I had ever known. The list went on and on. Then I realized OMG I am so addicted to this sh*t.
Anyhow. The notion that we have come so far. Hmm. I don't even know where I'd start to argue against that one. Lets just say that we have lithium, a drug that probably works when many other drugs fail. We didn't invent it, and we certainly don't fully know how it works. You have to accept the fact that when you take an antidepressant you are taking an unknown risk. On the beggining of every AD commercial "while the causes of depression are not known...."
Just the fact a drug doesn't even need to be tested long term (ie more than 6 months) before it can be pushed by doctors. We don't know how these meds affect people long term.
If you take a happy pill, and it makes you happy, then it is much easier to accept all the theory, and dismiss all the potential problems that might arise from taking the medication. Its like smoking, it is so addicting, that the mind can destroy the body just to continue it. But the fact remains, that in all of this time that we have had acess to serotonin/norepinephrine reputake inhibitors, we have nair to find any conclusive evidence of abnormalities with the serotonin or norepinephrine transporter molecules.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on March 2, 2006, at 20:37:17
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » SLS, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 18:48:51
> Did you ever experience relief from SSRIs?
Yes. Unfortunately, the relief was wholly inadequate.
Even if I hadn't received any benefit from SSRIs personally, I am satisfied with what I have seen in others to believe them to be effective.
When they first came out, I was sure that the SSRIs couldn't possibly be as effective as the tricyclics. I was under the impression that they were inferior. Afterall, I was a catecholamine guy at the time. I was truly surprised by what I came to see as a success rate that approached (but not quite equaled) those of previously established antidepressants. I am a believer in SSRIs in part because I believe the reports by, and trust the conclusions of, the doctors I have worked with. I am further pursuaded by my having seen personally the transformations that have occurred in people whom have been administered these drugs. Just last week, I witnessed a miracle performed by Zoloft. I was finally able to hug on the outside the person that had been formally trapped on the inside by depression. It took over a year and a forced hospitalization for her to "take my advice" and go with an SSRI. Zoloft was the one I had suggested. Now she thinks I'm God. She is, of course, quite mistaken. However, it demonstrates how emotionally attached one can become to the path that leads them to success and how easy it is to scorn all those previously travelled. Fortunately, she does not resent the doctors whom "conspired" with her to "waste" so much of her time. In psychiatry, it is dangerous to generalize onto all of humanity the experiences of the individual. Despite SSRIs being a waste of *my* time, I would still recommend to others that they consider taking one of these drugs before concluding that psychiatry has nothing to offer them. For the average person suffering from the average major depression, I think it still makes sense to consider either Prozac or Zoloft as a first choice.
I think SSRIs poop-out more frequently than tricyclics and MAOIs. I couldn't guess at the statistics, though.
I think SSRIs are generally inferior to TCAs, SNRIs, and MAOIs in terms of numbers of people whom respond and the quality of response when these drugs are used as monotherapy.
As far as side effects are concerned, I don't know if SSRIs are more or less annoying than TCAs or MAOIs, but they are different. It might be a matter of personal preference as to which represent the least desirable to experience.
At the outset of the 21st century, there are not many treatments being offered us, and not a great deal of understanding of the diseases being treated. We cannot reasonably expect perfection from the drugs that medical science has so far availed us of. It is not part of our current reality that every sick person in the world can be cured using a treatment devoid of adverse effects. We must thus make the most of what we do have. For a great many people, Prozac is indeed the miracle pill it was touted as being in 1987. It just wasn't miracle enough for me. I might try it again, though. This time, I'll try adding it to other drugs at higher dosages and hope that I hit the lottery.
Damned drugs. I hate them all. Thank God they exist, though. Just born a little too early, I guess. We'll see...
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:38:52
In reply to Re: whoa » linkadge, posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 20:19:50
I'm not here to tell anyone to stop taking what works for them.
Linkadge
Posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 20:40:34
In reply to Re: Yes » wildcard11, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:34:47
oh yeah, i quit effexor cold w/o any s/effects at all after being on it one year. alone it helped some but w/ therapy i did better. it kept me alive, not happy until i cld. help myself if that makes sense. and by no means am i saying that A/D's aren't too easily rx'ed. i can just speak from my experience.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 20:47:24
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » Chairman_MAO, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:01:17
Who I once was? I never understood why people are told that a drug can restore you to the "old you". Obviously it is not going to do that, because the state of consciousness is drug-induced. It may be more pleasant, but it certainly isn't "the old you". The "old you" had functional serotonin uptake transporters. We all may or may not suffer from neurological problems, but if it was found we did, then we'd be seeing neurologists and not psychiatrists. I never wanted to get back to the "old me" because I have been this way ever since I started encoding memories (social phobia/dysthymia/"reward deficiency"). It got a lot worse in adolescence, but, then again, that's when my libido emerged.
If this is who I will always be, then I might as well cease to be. That is why I am bothering with these drugs; I want to get some enjoyment out of life. I'd like to feel some sense of accomplishment when I do good things like most people do! I'd like to feel something else besides self-loathing for a change.
I was lucky enough to be so gifted intellectually (and have parents that did very well for themselves) that I managed to make it through 2.5 years of college at Syracuse University, making dean's list twice. I say "so gifted" because it was an effort to follow through any task to completion. I had plenty of an interest in sex, but my social phobia/rejection sensitivity/lack of self confidence was so great that I had absolutely none until I was 19. I have only had two relationships. If I were well, I probably would be in a top graduate school now. If I didn't have Ritalin I never would've gotten through even those 2.5 years.
When I was placed on an SSRI my grades plummetted and I started smoking pot all day long. I eventually failed out, and my life has basically been mostly failures ever since. I originally saw a shrink just to have my ritalin switched to dexedrine. She saw I was depressed, and I--so naively--shared everything with her about the drugs I'd experimented with. She told my parents without my consent, claiming I was "in danger of hurting myself and should be hospitalized". Yeah, right, sure; I never said a peep about suicide to her. My parents pulled the Ritalin away after I'd been on it for 5 years, and I went from dysthymia into major depression. "trust me," she said as she handed me Effexor. Maybe one day she'll be depressed, take an SSRI, and enjoy what it's like to exist in a fog of apathy all day while your life disintegrates around you. I wish I never rocked that boat. Most of the people in that profession are the people that aren't talented enough to become real doctors. Some of them mean well, a number of them are gifted in various ways, but most of them are self-righteous buffoons. How can anyone claim to be a doctor that treats the biological causes of diseases that do not have an identified biological basis? 1+1=3?
A whale is a fish? Huh?Modern American mainstream psychiatry is social control masquerading as medicine. Most psychiatric diagnoses are shallow character judgements that wear the mantle of science. The psychiatrist is an agent of the state who conspires with it in justifying the government-sanctioned drug cartels (pharmaceutical companies). War on drugs? Right. "War on the First Amendment". Where would the CIA get its money for black-budget coup de etats in foreign countries if it weren't for heroin and cocaine trades?
Remember, if it is untaxed and you don't have a permission slip signed by a grown-up saying you can take it, the drug is bad for you.
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:48:06
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » Chairman_MAO, posted by SLS on March 2, 2006, at 20:37:17
Wish I could agree with that type of arugment.
Sure, I've seen what Jesus can do (or what people claim he has done), but Jesus hasn't done much for me, so I have a hard time believing in him.
I'm like doubting Thomas, (but unfortunately, I've seen no nailprints)
But in this context, I've never seen anybody get what I would consider *long term* relief from depression by any single antidepressant, mind you, I lived a short and secluded life.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:50:03
In reply to Re: Yes » linkadge, posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 20:40:34
How much did you go off of cold turkey. (you seem to be the exception to the rule)
Linkadge
Posted by tizza on March 2, 2006, at 20:58:09
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon, posted by Phillipa on March 2, 2006, at 19:16:02
I heard someone mention ssri's made them want to drink more, I'm a fairly heavy drinker at times and I found that Cipramil (citalopram) and Effexor made me want to drink like a fish, they both really made me crave alcohol, which of course made things worse. I have found a few beers and a valium work so much better for me and valium alone is even better. My point here is quite a strange one, if I'm depressed and suffer from GAD and social phobia as well, why does a depressant work so much better for me, SSRI's certainly didn't. ADD and ADHD are treated with legal speed so why can't some people be treated like this. Treat like with like. *DX Hyperactive* give them stimulants, it does work for loads of people or *DX Depression* give them benzo's. It works for me. Just a thought. Paul
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:59:39
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 20:47:24
I guess what I mean by "old me", is the notion that in order for me to have detected worse, I needed to have known better.
University is a forced rat swim test. Depression and anxiety disorders are running rampant, and officials don't care. Nobody cares to change the system, they just hand out AD's like they were candy. I guess, whatever keeps you "going for the show"
No, I was better before. Like I said, life f*cked me over. Life is a "mild chronic stressor".
But I contend. Only three things are certain in life.
1. Death
2. Taxes
3. Antidepressant poop-out.Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 21:03:02
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon, posted by tizza on March 2, 2006, at 20:58:09
That too is not uncommon. *Infact* many studies have linked low activity of the serotonin transporter to alcoholism. There are other theories too regarding SSRI induced dopamine supression.
For me, it was coffee. At one point I was drinking like 10-15 cups a day on celexa.
Linkadge
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 21:23:37
In reply to Re: Yes » Chairman_MAO, posted by zeugma on March 2, 2006, at 20:30:29
It makes no sense to me to say that it treats mild anxiety after six weeks. Mild anxiety often comes and goes on its own in about that long. More than one psychiatrist I've talked to has told me that buspirone is "the most expensive placebo on the market". My psychopharmacology professor at Syracuse University told me that it was a failed attempt at developing an antipsychotic that was sold for anxiety in order to recover development costs. If you do enough studies on something, by change you will get a difference from placebo. They only have to show the studies that succeed to the FDA, and voila--your treatment for anxiety. What do you use for anxiety? If anything, I'll bet its not buspirone...
Anxiolytic drugs are those which relieve anxiety upon administration. Benzodiazepines, barbiturates, many antipsychotics, opioids, phenelzine's GABA-T inhibitng metabolite, kavalactones, mirtazapine...even hydroxyzine, diphenhydramine, and trazodone are more anxiolytic than buspirone. Valproate is more of an anxiolytic than buspirone. SSRIs are not anxiolytics, either. They attenuate felt emotion and lessen the number of thoughts coming into consciousness (in most people). Calling them anxiolytics is like calling an anesthetic an analgesic. Sure, if you can't feel ANYTHING, you won't be in pain. The reason many people feel more anxious when starting an SSRI is because they INDUCE ANXIETY. Then, after you adjust to that 4-6 weeks later, you no longer feel the SSRI-induced anxiety, but the emotional anesthetic effect is still maintained. Thus, it seems like something "kicked in". It takes a lot longer to realize what really happened, but I'll bet a lot of people who have taken these medications will agree with me. One may argue that benzos et. al. do this in a way that feels differently. Well, at least that way FEELS CALMER and is directly correlated with the administration of the drug.
Sure, it has an action: a 5ht1a partial agonist, too-weak-to-matter dopamine blockade, and mCPP's actions. "Placebo" does not mean "devoid of any effects". It does have those effects; if you take too much buspar, they become strong enough to notice (I drank grapefruit juice once by accident with it and had quite a bad time). It feels horrible. It is simply not an anxiolytic drug. Buspirone can help with certain SSRI side effects quite well in some cases and can speed an antidepressant response. And yes, in animal models 5ht1a agonists screen as anxiolytic. However, no one ever asked the rats how they were feeling.
A benzodiazepine will calm someone in psychosis, as will Seroquel, et. al. 2g of buspirone will do nothing (maybe induce dizziness and vomiting).
Is there anyone here who had crippling anxiety that was unmanageable, sought pharmacological treatment, and then found relief from buspirone?
The placebo effect is so powerful that it is present even when investigating treatments for very serious disorders that often involve extreme pain, discomfort, etc. That being the case, does it make sense to deem buspirone anxiolytic given that it has virtually no subjective effect at clinical dosages?
Posted by FredPotter on March 2, 2006, at 21:24:48
In reply to Re: Yes » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 15:45:56
Thanks Chairman. As always an interesting post. One thing puzzles me. I don't find benzos effective against anxiety. Not like alcohol. Unfortunatey I had to stop drinking
Fred
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 21:40:47
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon, posted by tizza on March 2, 2006, at 20:58:09
The answer to this is in this history of the diagnosis. ADHD used to be only for children, who never WANTED to take the speed. It was dispensed to them largely for the purposes of eliminating normal behaviors in healthy children (usually male) that parents and teachers found undesirable. Amphetamine, at the right dose, has a calming effect in MOST PEOPLE! It's just that some people have a very hard time functioning unless they are in that state, as their default state doesn't mesh with life tasks well; those are the people we say have ADHD. Only much later did psychiatrists extend this category to adults, and many psychiatrists debate that it does not exist in adults. It is no cooincidence that most psychiatrist will try to treat adults with ADHD with TCAs, wellbutrin, and strattera first--because dispensing any drug you WANT to take is against the doctrine of pharmacological calvinism.
In the case you describe, you are admitting that a tranquilizer makes you feel more tranquil. There is nothing illogical about the situation; the confusion only comes from a conflation of terms. Yes, diazepam is a DEPRESSANT, meaning it enhances the function of GABA--an inhibitory neurotransmitter--at GABA(A) receptors. This DEPRESSES--or slows down--certain neural activity in limbic system projections, decreases acetylcholine release (muscle relaxation, relief from "thought-frenzied" states, etc. DEPRESSION is a term that refers to a complex state in which one is persistently hopeless, suicidal, loses interest in things that once were enjoyable, cannot experience pleasure, etc. People that are depressed do not have DEPRESSED nervous systems. That is, it is quite possible for a depressed person to be agitated and sleepless.
The SSRI made you crave alcohol because it induced anxiety and inhibited DA release, which is calming. The neurological substrate in the not-really-paradoxical stimulant response involves an increase in the amount of DA at the synapse when the neurons are at rest. This results in increased activation of postsynaptic autoreceptors, which inhibits DA release. Thus, the receptors are more stimulating while resting, yet the amplitude of their reponse to activation is lessened. Thus, you have less impulsive, reactive activity--more focus. Dig it?
At high doses, the amount of excess DA present at the synapse overcomes the feedback mechanism's ability to compensate, and you have the effects classically associated with stimulants.
Posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 21:40:55
In reply to Re: Yes, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:50:03
Posted by zeugma on March 2, 2006, at 21:59:11
In reply to Re: Yes » zeugma, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 21:23:37
> It makes no sense to me to say that it treats mild anxiety after six weeks. Mild anxiety often comes and goes on its own in about that long. More than one psychiatrist I've talked to has told me that buspirone is "the most expensive placebo on the market". My psychopharmacology professor at Syracuse University told me that it was a failed attempt at developing an antipsychotic that was sold for anxiety in order to recover development costs. If you do enough studies on something, by change you will get a difference from placebo. They only have to show the studies that succeed to the FDA, and voila--your treatment for anxiety. What do you use for anxiety? If anything, I'll bet its not buspirone...>>
Far from it. Clonazepam is the only reason I can engage in trivial pleasantries with anyone. My social anxiety is extreme.
>
> Anxiolytic drugs are those which relieve anxiety upon administration. Benzodiazepines, barbiturates, many antipsychotics, opioids, phenelzine's GABA-T inhibitng metabolite, kavalactones, mirtazapine...even hydroxyzine, diphenhydramine, and trazodone are more anxiolytic than buspirone. >>Buspirone is certainly not anxiolytic. If anything it is an antidepressant.
Valproate is more of an anxiolytic than buspirone. SSRIs are not anxiolytics, either. They attenuate felt emotion and lessen the number of thoughts coming into consciousness (in most people). Calling them anxiolytics is like calling an anesthetic an analgesic. Sure, if you can't feel ANYTHING, you won't be in pain. The reason many people feel more anxious when starting an SSRI is because they INDUCE ANXIETY. Then, after you adjust to that 4-6 weeks later, you no longer feel the SSRI-induced anxiety, but the emotional anesthetic effect is still maintained. Thus, it seems like something "kicked in". It takes a lot longer to realize what really happened, but I'll bet a lot of people who have taken these medications will agree with me. One may argue that benzos et. al. do this in a way that feels differently. Well, at least that way FEELS CALMER and is directly correlated with the administration of the drug. >>
I think SSRI's are anxiolytic for some. I have seen it. I have seen people who were preoccupied with suicide suddenly end their preoccupation. Of course, a dulling effect (going by what I've seen) sets in that is not very satisfactory. My impression is that SSRI's are better for OCD than depression. I think they are poor drugs long term because they destroy sleep architecture. I have seen sevrely demotivating effects that i do not consider therapeutic. But maybe in OCD this is the therapeutic effect.
>
> Sure, it has an action: a 5ht1a partial agonist, too-weak-to-matter dopamine blockade, and mCPP's actions. "Placebo" does not mean "devoid of any effects". It does have those effects; if you take too much buspar, they become strong enough to notice (I drank grapefruit juice once by accident with it and had quite a bad time). It feels horrible. It is simply not an anxiolytic drug. Buspirone can help with certain SSRI side effects quite well in some cases and can speed an antidepressant response. And yes, in animal models 5ht1a agonists screen as anxiolytic. However, no one ever asked the rats how they were feeling.
>
The rats have terrible alexithymia. Shame about that...I take buspirone because it blocks REM quickly, so I don't get hit with sleep paralysis because nortriptyline kicks in too slowly. My pathology is like that of what used to be called "cholinergic rebound," only not AD-induced (I know, I spent years living in a hole without AD's or anxiolytics and got as many brain zaps at bed time as anyone experiencing Effexor or Paxil withdrawal).
> A benzodiazepine will calm someone in psychosis, as will Seroquel, et. al. 2g of buspirone will do nothing (maybe induce dizziness and vomiting).
>
Over 30 mg buspirone induces a suspiciously AP-like fatigue (and I have some kind of narcolepsy so any elevation above baseline fatigue quite literally has me sleeping 20 hours at a time). Buspirone is not an anxiolytic, but we have to use the words marketers use; i'll accept that it's a failed antipsychotic with antidepressant effects. I use it to block REM, quickly. I am under constant REM pressure. It does help with this.
> Is there anyone here who had crippling anxiety that was unmanageable, sought pharmacological treatment, and then found relief from buspirone?Not me. Some of those who have treated me had that hope, but this country does not have wise policies re benzodiazepine guidelines. It seems things are even worse in the UK. The fact of the matter is that psychiatry is a branch of the creative nonfiction that has taken hold of this country, and hopefully people will become interested in more veridical forms of medical pursuit. But I won't hold my breath for that to happen, and in the meantime I have to do soemthing about my cholinergic system.
> The placebo effect is so powerful that it is present even when investigating treatments for very serious disorders that often involve extreme pain, discomfort, etc. That being the case, does it make sense to deem buspirone anxiolytic given that it has virtually no subjective effect at clinical dosages?>>
Well, you can define the illness so the pill will treat it. Generalized Anxiety Disorder is an 'interesting' diagnosis. I have yet to hear of anyone who had that as their sole pathology. Studies involving buspirone do require a certain disregard for the meanings of the words used to write them. There are some abstracts I could quote if I wasn't so f*cking tired. They are actually funny, at least if you aren't breathless from a panic attack.
-z
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 21:59:25
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » SLS, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:48:06
linkadge: Nardil never pooped out for me. I did lose the initial euphoria and subsequently much of the energy boost, but it never stopped helping my social phobia, anxiety, and depression at least 50% (social phobia more like 75%-100% depending upon the situation). This was 10 months after starting it. Probably would've lasted at least 5-10 years, if not forever. It is the only AD that actually felt like it did anything resembling "correcting" a problem. Of course, that is all subjective. By "correct the problem" I mean that I was able to enjoy life!
I went off of it to try amphetamine because I was having problems holding down a job due to concentration problems (which exist on no meds). Nardil improved it somewhat, but not enough. I am beginning to think that I just have to find whatever occupation allows me to be a space cadet, compensate as best as I can, and take nardil again. If I can just get far enough to find a doctor that will Rx amphetamine WITH the Nardil, then my pharamcological nightmare will be over.
Posted by FredPotter on March 2, 2006, at 22:03:24
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » Chairman_MAO, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:01:17
I'm a statistician and a jazz pianist. I haven't noticed that 225 mg Effexor with 2.5 mg Zyprexa impairs me in any way. Of course, I haven't replicated myself, so how can I tell?
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 22:13:52
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon, posted by FredPotter on March 2, 2006, at 22:03:24
The perceiver and the perceived are one and the same. Your playing is part and parcel of your evaluation of the music you play (less so if you listen to it recorded, which you should do if you havent) Perhaps it doesn't impair you. Perhaps you were overly obsessive so now the net result is you play better. Or, perhaps you aren't having as many fine-grained emotional perceptions related to your music as you once were, and so no longer notice what would have previously stood out as "off" or otherwise undesirable.
If an SSRI can numb people's loins, I imagine it could do something analogous with other sensual pursuits, such as playing music. If I may wax Freudian for just one bittersweet moment: Libidinal energy is involved in both examples.
It could be that the sexual dysfunction of SSRIs is, as psychiatrist Elio Frattaroli wrote in "Healing the Soul in the Age of the Brain", "[reducing libidinal energy] is not a side effect, but rather the primary effect [of SSRI drugs]"
Drunk people often do not notice they are slurring their words. Now, of course you aren't impaired like that at all. Just a thought experiment ...
Posted by zeugma on March 2, 2006, at 22:50:36
In reply to Re: Yes » Chairman_MAO, posted by zeugma on March 2, 2006, at 21:59:11
Buspirone can help with certain SSRI side effects quite well in some cases and can speed an antidepressant response. And yes, in animal models 5ht1a agonists screen as anxiolytic. >>
there is an issue here with where the threshold would be put for a substance to be anxiolytic/ antidpressant.
sometimes a little bit counts, even in severe illnesses.
-z
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 23:18:15
In reply to Re: Yes, posted by zeugma on March 2, 2006, at 22:50:36
I'm not sure what you mean...
Following your suggestion, one should be able to employ the "benzodiazepine antipsychotics" in paranoid schizophrenia, for the benzodiazepines definitely lessen feelings of fear, worry, suspicion, paranoia, and other lawn orniments residing in front of Mental Misery Manor. In fact, at high enough doses (provided the patient is kept away with other meds), they can stop it altogether. Are they antipsychotics?
Depression can feature anxiety, and depression can be caused by anxiety. However, if you treat such anxiety with an anxiolytic, the anxiety is gone quickly, yet the depression remains. If buspar is used in that circumstance, after 4-6 weeks (at ueber-doses) the depression might improve to the point where there's not as much anxiety (or in this case I think "worry" is better). Does that mean buspar is an anxiolytic? What it means, really, is that buspar isn't ANYTHING. Did it get rid of the depression or anxiety? No. It just "improved" both. And I wonder if that has anything to do with the way SSRIs "improve" things...
It is a weak 5th1a partial agonist with some other properties. It should be labelled as a REM sleep control drug, if anything.
or did I miss your point
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