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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 126 to 150 of 297. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on March 2, 2006, at 19:16:02
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » SLS, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 18:48:51
I have a few theories on this subject. Number l. a person starts one of these meds and after the side effects disappear they are so relieved that they really feel the same as they did before starting the med but now that feeling is superior to the one while starting on the med. Number 2. The first time you take one of thes meds they change the amount of the serotonin or norepephenephrine your brain needs to funtion. So if you stay on the med it will work but if you stop and try it again your chemistry is changed and they no longer work.Number 3 if you stay on them long enough years in most cases they stop working as your brain has adjusted to the higher levels of the chemicals. Number 4 Some peoples life circumstances change for the better so consequently they feel better. And as far as alchohol is concerned can anyone explain to me why 6 beers a night with .5 of xanax I funtioned phenominally and was happy? Just want to know. No right or wrong. Seriously I think constantly about why and what is wrong with me each and every day. Thanks Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on March 2, 2006, at 19:23:33
In reply to Re: Opinions » TylerJ, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 19:15:07
PS Number l is kind of hard to understand. To clarify. you feel bad. You take a med. You feel worse because of so called start up effects. You either give up on the med or continue and they go away. You stay on the med for an individual amt of time. But if you quit it because of side effects you are so relieved ehey are gone your baseline of when you decided to try a med is superior to how you felt on the med so you are so relieved you instantly feel better. or you have stayed on the med to which you have accoustomed your brain to for long enought to have forgotten how bad you felt and you are again functioning well you gradually stop and feel better. Is this a better explanation? Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 19:26:52
In reply to Re: Yes » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 15:45:56
Thats the thing. Psychiatry will try to frame the diagnosis around whatever drugs are acceptable to be using at the time.
Even the idea that anxiety disorders could never happen independantly of depressive disorders was based on the fact that the antidepressants helped both for *some* people.
There is quite a difference between what psychiatrists *wanted* an antidepressant to be and what they actually are.
For instance, doctors wanted/claim that AD's are nonaddictive. On the contrary, they produce strong dependance, and they sometimes require ever inreasing doses to achieve a similar effect. So if we can be lied to in that sence, why must we accept claims of their efficacy without question?
There is an attitude in psychiary that because psychiatrists see the "broader picture" that they feel justified in telling the patients white lies. But time has revealed over and over again, that psychiatry often doesn't see the "broader picture"
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 19:31:25
In reply to whoa » Chairman_MAO, posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 16:14:31
>who are you to say that anyone is 'compromising >their own freedom and dignity'?
Antipsychotics do not heal the brain. They don't heal schitsophrenia and they certainly don't heal anxiety disorders. We want to make people better, not blanket their illness and kickstart the development of a new one, ie TD.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on March 2, 2006, at 19:34:00
In reply to Re: Yes, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 19:26:52
Link on an added note. I have too neighbors both in late 60's. Their Son committed suicid hence they both takd zoloft. I asked her yesterday if she thoutht it worked. She said somethings but I think I will go back into theraphy. Oh and they both got the zoloft from a family doctor not a pdoc. And she said to me we all put on a face in public. No one knows what goes on behind closed doors. Just wanted to add that. Love Phillipa ps my next door neighbor teaches third grade takes lexapro and up to 6mg of xanax a day and she said all the teachers are always borrowing xanax from her. So what does this say about our society?
Posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 19:38:34
In reply to Re: whoa, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 19:31:25
okay, but they can *help* the pain that people are in. what other alternatives do you suggest?
Posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 19:46:50
In reply to Re: Yes, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 19:26:52
but not everyone can be grouped in that category. i have never dealt w/ addiction to any A/D. the meds. can and do work for some. we are talking about the meds. and i know from personal experience that they indeed *helped* pull me out of a suicidal depression. there is not a perfect answer or solution but they have helped many. we are talking about a field that has come a long way but still has much further to go. it's not just black or white, there is a HUGE grey area...
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:01:17
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » SLS, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 18:48:51
What is relief from depression? Its a return to who you once were.
I remember enjoying playing the piano. How could I ever be me again if there was no joy in that?
SSRI's make my motion so stiff that I could hardly play, much less enjoy it.I took SSRI's for 7 years, and had insomnia the whole 7 years. Thats not restoration.
I abruptly lost interest in sex, and presuing relationships at perhaps the most critical period of my development.
My grades dropped and I lost the ability to concentrate.
The list goes on. I'm not saying they didn't send my brain chemicals on a majic carpet ride, but did they actually help the core problem?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:07:22
In reply to Re: Opinions, posted by Phillipa on March 2, 2006, at 19:23:33
No, I know what you're saying about point 1.
Ever watch a really freaky movie that scared the hell out of you, and when it was over you felt so much better. Like you were relieved just to be alive etc. For SSRI's it was the same with me. I took them for a month, and I remember being so scared out of my mind that when it all tamed down I was so relieved.Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:11:04
In reply to Re: Yes » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on March 2, 2006, at 19:34:00
Thats it. Sometimes you just think that peoples lives are so rosey because they are taking drug such and such. But oftentimes it isn't all that clear cut.
We all want to be like the pople on the drug commericals right? Pop this pill and be smiles all day long. Doesn't always happen that way.
Linkadge
Posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 20:12:46
In reply to Re: Yes, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:11:04
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:17:03
In reply to Re: whoa » linkadge, posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 19:38:34
Well any placebo would do, but other than that nutritional therapies might actually get to the heart of some of the imballances. Time and stress reduction heal many depressions.
Linakdge
Posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 20:19:50
In reply to Re: whoa, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:17:03
true for some but i did all that and years of therapy w/o meds.. i tried everything to NOT be on A/D's. i thought i could 'overcome' the depression but that wasn't the case.
Posted by zeugma on March 2, 2006, at 20:30:29
In reply to Re: Yes » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 15:45:56
Reminds me of how studies on buspirone found that those who had previously used a benzodiazepine for anxiety did not respond to Buspar. The investigators did all sorts of stupid theorizing about this, but it is obvious that what that shows is that once someone knows what a real anxiolytic drug is like, they do not readily respond to placebos.
>>Just pulling this out of the thread cause I am a bit exhausted. Buspirone is and was mislabelled and mismarketed, and is worse than imipramine for benzodiazepine withdrawal (a set of investigators was foolish enough to waste money, no doubt funded by Bristol Myers Squibb, on this study) but that does not make it a placebo.
-z
Posted by TylerJ on March 2, 2006, at 20:34:13
In reply to Re: Opinions » TylerJ, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 19:15:07
> I have been using a herb called Fo-ti, which is one of the strongest herbal MAO-B inhibitors available. I would like to try the patch to see if it has a similar effect. (since fo-ti has estrogenic effects and I don't want to take it too long)
>
> Although, I am in canada. I don't know if I'd have the have the courage to bring it up to my doctor.
>
>
> Linkadge
Cool, I'm glad it's working for you. If I ever need to try something else, I'm going to try "The Patch" as well. Good Luck.Tyler
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:34:47
In reply to Re: Yes » linkadge, posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 19:46:50
Have you tried to come off the meds? I remember thinking to myself. I'm not addicted to effexor, and then when I started to come off I couldn't move my eyes for 7 months without having a brain zap. I couldn't walk in a straight line. I couldn't sleep. I couldn't add two numbers together. Brain shivers, brain zaps. Suicidiality that surpassed anthing I had ever known. The list went on and on. Then I realized OMG I am so addicted to this sh*t.
Anyhow. The notion that we have come so far. Hmm. I don't even know where I'd start to argue against that one. Lets just say that we have lithium, a drug that probably works when many other drugs fail. We didn't invent it, and we certainly don't fully know how it works. You have to accept the fact that when you take an antidepressant you are taking an unknown risk. On the beggining of every AD commercial "while the causes of depression are not known...."
Just the fact a drug doesn't even need to be tested long term (ie more than 6 months) before it can be pushed by doctors. We don't know how these meds affect people long term.
If you take a happy pill, and it makes you happy, then it is much easier to accept all the theory, and dismiss all the potential problems that might arise from taking the medication. Its like smoking, it is so addicting, that the mind can destroy the body just to continue it. But the fact remains, that in all of this time that we have had acess to serotonin/norepinephrine reputake inhibitors, we have nair to find any conclusive evidence of abnormalities with the serotonin or norepinephrine transporter molecules.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on March 2, 2006, at 20:37:17
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » SLS, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 18:48:51
> Did you ever experience relief from SSRIs?
Yes. Unfortunately, the relief was wholly inadequate.
Even if I hadn't received any benefit from SSRIs personally, I am satisfied with what I have seen in others to believe them to be effective.
When they first came out, I was sure that the SSRIs couldn't possibly be as effective as the tricyclics. I was under the impression that they were inferior. Afterall, I was a catecholamine guy at the time. I was truly surprised by what I came to see as a success rate that approached (but not quite equaled) those of previously established antidepressants. I am a believer in SSRIs in part because I believe the reports by, and trust the conclusions of, the doctors I have worked with. I am further pursuaded by my having seen personally the transformations that have occurred in people whom have been administered these drugs. Just last week, I witnessed a miracle performed by Zoloft. I was finally able to hug on the outside the person that had been formally trapped on the inside by depression. It took over a year and a forced hospitalization for her to "take my advice" and go with an SSRI. Zoloft was the one I had suggested. Now she thinks I'm God. She is, of course, quite mistaken. However, it demonstrates how emotionally attached one can become to the path that leads them to success and how easy it is to scorn all those previously travelled. Fortunately, she does not resent the doctors whom "conspired" with her to "waste" so much of her time. In psychiatry, it is dangerous to generalize onto all of humanity the experiences of the individual. Despite SSRIs being a waste of *my* time, I would still recommend to others that they consider taking one of these drugs before concluding that psychiatry has nothing to offer them. For the average person suffering from the average major depression, I think it still makes sense to consider either Prozac or Zoloft as a first choice.
I think SSRIs poop-out more frequently than tricyclics and MAOIs. I couldn't guess at the statistics, though.
I think SSRIs are generally inferior to TCAs, SNRIs, and MAOIs in terms of numbers of people whom respond and the quality of response when these drugs are used as monotherapy.
As far as side effects are concerned, I don't know if SSRIs are more or less annoying than TCAs or MAOIs, but they are different. It might be a matter of personal preference as to which represent the least desirable to experience.
At the outset of the 21st century, there are not many treatments being offered us, and not a great deal of understanding of the diseases being treated. We cannot reasonably expect perfection from the drugs that medical science has so far availed us of. It is not part of our current reality that every sick person in the world can be cured using a treatment devoid of adverse effects. We must thus make the most of what we do have. For a great many people, Prozac is indeed the miracle pill it was touted as being in 1987. It just wasn't miracle enough for me. I might try it again, though. This time, I'll try adding it to other drugs at higher dosages and hope that I hit the lottery.
Damned drugs. I hate them all. Thank God they exist, though. Just born a little too early, I guess. We'll see...
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:38:52
In reply to Re: whoa » linkadge, posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 20:19:50
I'm not here to tell anyone to stop taking what works for them.
Linkadge
Posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 20:40:34
In reply to Re: Yes » wildcard11, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:34:47
oh yeah, i quit effexor cold w/o any s/effects at all after being on it one year. alone it helped some but w/ therapy i did better. it kept me alive, not happy until i cld. help myself if that makes sense. and by no means am i saying that A/D's aren't too easily rx'ed. i can just speak from my experience.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 20:47:24
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » Chairman_MAO, posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:01:17
Who I once was? I never understood why people are told that a drug can restore you to the "old you". Obviously it is not going to do that, because the state of consciousness is drug-induced. It may be more pleasant, but it certainly isn't "the old you". The "old you" had functional serotonin uptake transporters. We all may or may not suffer from neurological problems, but if it was found we did, then we'd be seeing neurologists and not psychiatrists. I never wanted to get back to the "old me" because I have been this way ever since I started encoding memories (social phobia/dysthymia/"reward deficiency"). It got a lot worse in adolescence, but, then again, that's when my libido emerged.
If this is who I will always be, then I might as well cease to be. That is why I am bothering with these drugs; I want to get some enjoyment out of life. I'd like to feel some sense of accomplishment when I do good things like most people do! I'd like to feel something else besides self-loathing for a change.
I was lucky enough to be so gifted intellectually (and have parents that did very well for themselves) that I managed to make it through 2.5 years of college at Syracuse University, making dean's list twice. I say "so gifted" because it was an effort to follow through any task to completion. I had plenty of an interest in sex, but my social phobia/rejection sensitivity/lack of self confidence was so great that I had absolutely none until I was 19. I have only had two relationships. If I were well, I probably would be in a top graduate school now. If I didn't have Ritalin I never would've gotten through even those 2.5 years.
When I was placed on an SSRI my grades plummetted and I started smoking pot all day long. I eventually failed out, and my life has basically been mostly failures ever since. I originally saw a shrink just to have my ritalin switched to dexedrine. She saw I was depressed, and I--so naively--shared everything with her about the drugs I'd experimented with. She told my parents without my consent, claiming I was "in danger of hurting myself and should be hospitalized". Yeah, right, sure; I never said a peep about suicide to her. My parents pulled the Ritalin away after I'd been on it for 5 years, and I went from dysthymia into major depression. "trust me," she said as she handed me Effexor. Maybe one day she'll be depressed, take an SSRI, and enjoy what it's like to exist in a fog of apathy all day while your life disintegrates around you. I wish I never rocked that boat. Most of the people in that profession are the people that aren't talented enough to become real doctors. Some of them mean well, a number of them are gifted in various ways, but most of them are self-righteous buffoons. How can anyone claim to be a doctor that treats the biological causes of diseases that do not have an identified biological basis? 1+1=3?
A whale is a fish? Huh?Modern American mainstream psychiatry is social control masquerading as medicine. Most psychiatric diagnoses are shallow character judgements that wear the mantle of science. The psychiatrist is an agent of the state who conspires with it in justifying the government-sanctioned drug cartels (pharmaceutical companies). War on drugs? Right. "War on the First Amendment". Where would the CIA get its money for black-budget coup de etats in foreign countries if it weren't for heroin and cocaine trades?
Remember, if it is untaxed and you don't have a permission slip signed by a grown-up saying you can take it, the drug is bad for you.
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:48:06
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » Chairman_MAO, posted by SLS on March 2, 2006, at 20:37:17
Wish I could agree with that type of arugment.
Sure, I've seen what Jesus can do (or what people claim he has done), but Jesus hasn't done much for me, so I have a hard time believing in him.
I'm like doubting Thomas, (but unfortunately, I've seen no nailprints)
But in this context, I've never seen anybody get what I would consider *long term* relief from depression by any single antidepressant, mind you, I lived a short and secluded life.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:50:03
In reply to Re: Yes » linkadge, posted by wildcard11 on March 2, 2006, at 20:40:34
How much did you go off of cold turkey. (you seem to be the exception to the rule)
Linkadge
Posted by tizza on March 2, 2006, at 20:58:09
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon, posted by Phillipa on March 2, 2006, at 19:16:02
I heard someone mention ssri's made them want to drink more, I'm a fairly heavy drinker at times and I found that Cipramil (citalopram) and Effexor made me want to drink like a fish, they both really made me crave alcohol, which of course made things worse. I have found a few beers and a valium work so much better for me and valium alone is even better. My point here is quite a strange one, if I'm depressed and suffer from GAD and social phobia as well, why does a depressant work so much better for me, SSRI's certainly didn't. ADD and ADHD are treated with legal speed so why can't some people be treated like this. Treat like with like. *DX Hyperactive* give them stimulants, it does work for loads of people or *DX Depression* give them benzo's. It works for me. Just a thought. Paul
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 20:59:39
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 2, 2006, at 20:47:24
I guess what I mean by "old me", is the notion that in order for me to have detected worse, I needed to have known better.
University is a forced rat swim test. Depression and anxiety disorders are running rampant, and officials don't care. Nobody cares to change the system, they just hand out AD's like they were candy. I guess, whatever keeps you "going for the show"
No, I was better before. Like I said, life f*cked me over. Life is a "mild chronic stressor".
But I contend. Only three things are certain in life.
1. Death
2. Taxes
3. Antidepressant poop-out.Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 2, 2006, at 21:03:02
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon, posted by tizza on March 2, 2006, at 20:58:09
That too is not uncommon. *Infact* many studies have linked low activity of the serotonin transporter to alcoholism. There are other theories too regarding SSRI induced dopamine supression.
For me, it was coffee. At one point I was drinking like 10-15 cups a day on celexa.
Linkadge
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