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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mmcconathy on November 26, 2004, at 21:50:30
Wellbutrin is the only main one.
effexor......has very weak effect.
Wasnt there one back in the early 80's that got removed? I heard it caused liver complications anyways....
dopamine does have effect with improved memory and drive.
Does anyone know why?
I
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 26, 2004, at 22:09:45
In reply to Why arnt there more AD that work on dopamine?, posted by mmcconathy on November 26, 2004, at 21:50:30
> Wellbutrin is the only main one.
>
> effexor......has very weak effect.
>
> Wasnt there one back in the early 80's that got removed? I heard it caused liver complications anyways....
>
> dopamine does have effect with improved memory and drive.
>
> Does anyone know why?
>
> IDopaminergics can have serious abuse potential. I think that's the biggest limiting factor.
Lar
Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2004, at 22:23:41
In reply to Re: Why arnt there more AD that work on dopamine? » mmcconathy, posted by Larry Hoover on November 26, 2004, at 22:09:45
I think for most people, a pure dopaminergic is not that effective an antidepressant.
For instance, many people complain that wellbutrin causes anxiety and anger.
Infact a common side effect of the stimulants (mainly affecting dopamine) is depression.
I have no doubt that certain depressions only respond to dopaminergics but..
Actually there are more dopaminergics than you mentioned.
There is selegeline, nardil, parnate, certain TCA's, Remeron boosts DA in the frontal cortex,
mirapex, bromocriptine, zoloft (has more DA effect than wellbutrin). They are there, you've just got to find a doctor willing to prescribe them:)
Linkadge
Posted by mmcconathy on November 26, 2004, at 22:24:18
In reply to Re: Why arnt there more AD that work on dopamine? » mmcconathy, posted by Larry Hoover on November 26, 2004, at 22:09:45
yes, Ritilin.......
Wellbutrin doesnt seem to attract abusers though.... its properties dont seem to directly work on dopamine. I'm sure this greatly pleases the medical research association.
Posted by mmcconathy on November 26, 2004, at 22:40:52
In reply to Re: Why arnt there more AD that work on dopamine? » mmcconathy, posted by Larry Hoover on November 26, 2004, at 22:09:45
Wellbutrin works ok with me, althought sometimes lately i've been experiencing intesified thoughts that sometimes are disturbing, like i've lost mental stableness, my thoughts seem out of order. I dont know if this is my own psychological issue, or a side-effect.
Never mind that.But yes i agree that there needs to be a limit, that will not allow euphoria to occur. Just to a normal level.
Any other imputs?
Take Care
Posted by banga on November 27, 2004, at 1:57:43
In reply to Re: Why arnt there more AD that work on dopamine?, posted by linkadge on November 26, 2004, at 22:23:41
Zoloft has a larger effect on dopamine than Wellbutrin?? Is there somewhere I can read up on that? I hadnt heard that before, I wish there were more charts out there about the effects of these drugs out there--they often turn out to be incomplete.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 27, 2004, at 8:17:53
In reply to Re: Why arnt there more --Linkadge?, posted by banga on November 27, 2004, at 1:57:43
> Zoloft has a larger effect on dopamine than Wellbutrin?? Is there somewhere I can read up on that? I hadnt heard that before, I wish there were more charts out there about the effects of these drugs out there--they often turn out to be incomplete.
According to this database, linkange is quite correct:
http://kidb.cwru.edu/pdsp.phpPut the generic name of the drug in the "test ligand" field.
Sertraline has higher affinity at the D2 receptor and at the dopamine transporter than does bupropion. Lower numbers are higher affinities.
Lar
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 9:38:36
In reply to Re: Why arnt there more --Linkadge?, posted by banga on November 27, 2004, at 1:57:43
I will try and locate something, as I have seen charts that try and quantify the degree of neurotransmitter reputake of different drugs.
Actually wellbutrin is thought to work on a strong norepinephrine/weak dopamine reputake system.
I've read a few articles that suggest that at clinical doses, there is more effect of zoloft on dopamine than wellbutrin.
Linkadge
Posted by banga on November 27, 2004, at 11:23:57
In reply to Re: Why arnt there more --Linkadge?, posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 9:38:36
that's really interesting. Zoloft was my first med, 12 years ago, dose was not very high and my depression was not as bad back then, so it has been difficult to compare to my response in more recent years; but sometimes I wonder if it would be--if i decided i need an SSRI around after all--a drig to try again for me.
I have the nice article that compares many SSRIs and tricyclics and the amount of action on each neurotransmitter..they did say Zoloft worked on dopamine, but claimed it was insignificant. But they did not compare to Wellbutrin; and there is certainly room for disagreement on things like this!
Thanks for responses!
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 11:40:46
In reply to Re: Why arnt there more --Linkadge?, posted by banga on November 27, 2004, at 11:23:57
I would not say that it is insignificant.
I found the difference between celexa and zoloft was virtually apathy or no apathy.
Linkadge
Posted by KaraS on November 27, 2004, at 17:01:28
In reply to Re: Why arnt there more --Linkadge?, posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 11:40:46
Perhaps there is a synergistic effect with Wellbutrin because of the NE/DA combination whereas Zoloft's serotonergic activity might counterbalance or offset it's dopaminergic activity. Might the end result be more of a dopaminergic effect with Wellbutrin?
I am suggesting this because I believe that I need dopaminergic assistance and I took Zoloft but I was able to discern only a serotonergic effect from it. I felt no motivation, was extremely apathetic and had no sex drive. I realize that others might have a different response to Zoloft but I'm still left wondering about it's net dopaminergic effects.
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 17:56:40
In reply to Re: Zoloft vs. Wellbutrin as dopaminergics, posted by KaraS on November 27, 2004, at 17:01:28
I understand what you are saying. I have been on celexa for like 5 years (which is extremely selective) and so I notice the slightest changes
Ie, If you were to give me celexa,paxil,proxac,or zoloft I would be able to tell you which one I took.
I will admit that zoloft led to apathy like celexa, but not quite as much.
You are also right about the serotogenic effect surpressing the dopamine effect. This will happen to a certain extent.
And yes there is the effect of norepinephrine/DE corelease with wellbutrin.
I rank the SSRIs in this order for most apathy inducing to least apathy inducing
celexa,
luvox
paxil
zoloft
prozacPaxil and prozac made me irritable (they have effects on NE ??) zoloft made me the most caring. I was unmotivated yes, but I was still able to process emotion of others.
Infact, on zoloft and cofeee I felt really normal.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 17:58:20
In reply to Re: Zoloft vs. Wellbutrin as dopaminergics, posted by KaraS on November 27, 2004, at 17:01:28
Oh and one other thing.
Zoloft downregulates beta adrenergic receptors
while celexa does not. This is evidence of some effect on catecholamine.Linkadge
Posted by jujube on November 27, 2004, at 19:33:30
In reply to Re: Zoloft vs. Wellbutrin as dopaminergics, posted by KaraS on November 27, 2004, at 17:01:28
See table 3.8 on SSRIs compared to Clomipramine and the "Effect of Uptake of their metabolites in vitro" found at:
http://www.preskorn.com/books/ssri_s3.html#tab3-8Obviously, since Wellbutrin is not a SSRI, it is not on the chart.
If you have already seen this, sorry for the duplication.
Tamara
> Perhaps there is a synergistic effect with Wellbutrin because of the NE/DA combination whereas Zoloft's serotonergic activity might counterbalance or offset it's dopaminergic activity. Might the end result be more of a dopaminergic effect with Wellbutrin?
>
> I am suggesting this because I believe that I need dopaminergic assistance and I took Zoloft but I was able to discern only a serotonergic effect from it. I felt no motivation, was extremely apathetic and had no sex drive. I realize that others might have a different response to Zoloft but I'm still left wondering about it's net dopaminergic effects.
>
>
>
>
Posted by KaraS on November 28, 2004, at 0:04:55
In reply to Re: Zoloft vs. Wellbutrin as dopaminergics, posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 17:56:40
> I understand what you are saying. I have been on celexa for like 5 years (which is extremely selective) and so I notice the slightest changes
>
> Ie, If you were to give me celexa,paxil,proxac,or zoloft I would be able to tell you which one I took.
>
> I will admit that zoloft led to apathy like celexa, but not quite as much.
>
> You are also right about the serotogenic effect surpressing the dopamine effect. This will happen to a certain extent.
>
> And yes there is the effect of norepinephrine/DE corelease with wellbutrin.
>
> I rank the SSRIs in this order for most apathy inducing to least apathy inducing
>
> celexa,
> luvox
> paxil
> zoloft
> prozac
>
> Paxil and prozac made me irritable (they have effects on NE ??) zoloft made me the most caring. I was unmotivated yes, but I was still able to process emotion of others.
>
> Infact, on zoloft and cofeee I felt really normal.
>
>
> Linkadge
Linkadge,
From what you said above, Zoloft seemed to be better for you. If that's the case then why are you on Celexa now instead of Zoloft?I personally couldn't tell one SSRI from the others. They all did so little for me. That's too bad since I tolerated them so well (except for Celexa). Maybe someday I may take one of them as part of a cocktail of medications but not on its own.
Kara
Posted by KaraS on November 28, 2004, at 0:06:31
In reply to Re: Zoloft vs. Wellbutrin as dopaminergics » KaraS, posted by jujube on November 27, 2004, at 19:33:30
> See table 3.8 on SSRIs compared to Clomipramine and the "Effect of Uptake of their metabolites in vitro" found at:
>
> http://www.preskorn.com/books/ssri_s3.html#tab3-8
>
> Obviously, since Wellbutrin is not a SSRI, it is not on the chart.
>
> If you have already seen this, sorry for the duplication.
>
> Tamara
>
> > Perhaps there is a synergistic effect with Wellbutrin because of the NE/DA combination whereas Zoloft's serotonergic activity might counterbalance or offset it's dopaminergic activity. Might the end result be more of a dopaminergic effect with Wellbutrin?
> >
> > I am suggesting this because I believe that I need dopaminergic assistance and I took Zoloft but I was able to discern only a serotonergic effect from it. I felt no motivation, was extremely apathetic and had no sex drive. I realize that others might have a different response to Zoloft but I'm still left wondering about it's net dopaminergic effects.
> >
Thanks. I hadn't seen that. Too bad, as you say, that they didn't include other medications in the chart. It would be interesting to compare them.
Posted by linkadge on November 28, 2004, at 0:42:02
In reply to Re: Zoloft vs. Wellbutrin as dopaminergics » jujube, posted by KaraS on November 28, 2004, at 0:06:31
I'm kicking myself in the pants for begging my doctor to swich me back.
It's a mixed bag. On the one hand the prozac, and zoloft were better AD medications for the apathy, but on the other hand they increase certain psychotic features I have.Linkadge
Posted by theo on November 28, 2004, at 8:48:17
In reply to Re: Zoloft vs. Wellbutrin as dopaminergics, posted by linkadge on November 28, 2004, at 0:42:02
Prozac can cause a "zombie" like effect on people including myself. I'll find myself staring at the computer screen at nothing and look down at the clock and 15 minutes has gone by. Other SSRI's can indeed cause apathy, but not the trance like state Prozac can cause. Why is this? Is Prozac weaker on NE than Paxil or others?
Posted by ed_uk on November 28, 2004, at 9:19:47
In reply to Re: Zoloft vs. Wellbutrin as dopaminergics, posted by theo on November 28, 2004, at 8:48:17
All SSRIs make me apathetic, nothing special about Prozac for me!!
Ed
Posted by linkadge on November 28, 2004, at 10:57:10
In reply to Re: Zoloft vs. Wellbutrin as dopaminergics, posted by ed_uk on November 28, 2004, at 9:19:47
That funny cause I found prozac the most the most activating and agitation of the bunch. I could hardly sit still for 5 min.
Linkadge
Posted by theo on November 28, 2004, at 11:18:02
In reply to Re: Zoloft vs. Wellbutrin as dopaminergics, posted by linkadge on November 28, 2004, at 10:57:10
Yes, Prozac was activating physically, I increased my time spent in the gym, but mentally I would tend to gaze for long periods of time.
I've read several places Paxil hits NE harder. Paxil made me a little sleepy but I would find myself reading more books and cleaning my house, is this strange or can NE make that much difference?
Posted by ed_uk on November 28, 2004, at 11:30:18
In reply to Re: Zoloft vs. Wellbutrin as dopaminergics, posted by theo on November 28, 2004, at 11:18:02
On Paxil I could easily sleep 18 hours a day!
Ed
Posted by linkadge on November 28, 2004, at 11:41:17
In reply to Re: Zoloft vs. Wellbutrin as dopaminergics, posted by ed_uk on November 28, 2004, at 11:30:18
Paxil also has a antihistamine effect that can cause sdation but. It does have significant affinity for the norepinephrine reuptake sites.
Paxil actually felt very effexor-like to me (I am sensitive to NE)
Linkadge
Posted by mmcconathy on November 28, 2004, at 13:37:35
In reply to Re: Zoloft vs. Wellbutrin as dopaminergics, posted by linkadge on November 28, 2004, at 11:41:17
From i heard from Larry Hoover, no.
Wellbutrin can make me irrtible, i used to have a problem with motivation, basically laziness, but i was pleasant to just sit and do nothing in harmony. Wellbutrin activates me a bit, but makes me irrtible to where i HAVE to do it, im in worse mood than before.
Adderall does the opposite, i feel positive about doing things.
Even Caffiene is a better treatment than bupropion, sometimes.
I think it works more on NE than DA. Adderall works more on dopamine maybe that's for increased "drive" effects.
Anyways.... i hope they do come with a better dopaminergic soon.
Posted by linkadge on November 28, 2004, at 14:11:22
In reply to Re: Will they come out with more dopaminergics?, posted by mmcconathy on November 28, 2004, at 13:37:35
Not all dopaminergics have abuse potential so I don't see that there will not be some in the near future.
I've never heard of selegeline abuse for instance.
As well certain dopaminer agonists like d1/d2 agonists might proove usefull for motivation without abuse potential.
Linkadge
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