![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 62. Go back in thread:
Posted by Ritch on April 9, 2003, at 13:12:21
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question, posted by Larry Hoover on April 9, 2003, at 12:12:57
> > Ritch, I did check the label. Each teaspoonful of the Carlson's fish oil has 4 gms of fat: 2 gms of polyunsaturated (1600 mg. of which are Omega-3's), 1 gm of saturated, and 1 gm of monounsaturated.
> >
> > My guess is that the saturated and monounsaturated may solidify somewhat in colder temperatures. I think olive oil is a monounsaturated and I know olive oil gels in the fridge.
> >
> > I am also going to guess that if they solidify, the liquid becomes a suspension, and the solids gravitate to the bottom, at least somewhat. And, that as the amount of fish oil in the bottle lessens, we are seeing more of the solids.
> >
> > If this is correct, I would assume that shaking the bottle is a good solution (no pun intended!) to the problem.
> >
> > Or, is it possible also that if we wanted to we could separate out the gelled parts from the parts that remain liquid, and that these would be higher in concentration of Omega-3's? Hmmm...
> >
> > I certainly am no chemist, so I would love to hear from the more scientifically-minded posters on board whether my guesses are reasonable or not.
>
> Your explanation is probably correct. You're observing a physical process, not a chemical one. The properties of the different triglycerides in the bottle are not identical. In the cold of the fridge, some condense more readily than others. When condensed, they're denser, and gravity will separate them out. Yes, you're decanting the "better" triglycerides first.
>
> The sound of hissing air on opening the bottle may be due to a chemical process, i.e. the oxidation of the polyunsaturated fatty acids. The gas phase will lose oxygen, reducing the pressure inside the bottle. You may want to add some vitamin E (just dump a couple gelcaps worth into the bottle). The vitamin E will get nailed first, helping to protect the fish oils.\
>
> Lar
>Larry, would bringing the temp of the fishoil up to around 80 or so just for a few minutes every day hurt anything (so I can take an evenly mixed dose of oil)?
Posted by noa on April 9, 2003, at 15:50:25
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question, posted by Larry Hoover on April 9, 2003, at 12:12:57
Thanks, Larry.
It doesn't make the hissing sound once the bottle has been open for the first time. At least, I can't hear anything--just the first opening.
Re vitamin E--if the fish oil already contains vitamin E?
Posted by noa on April 9, 2003, at 15:53:50
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question-solution?, posted by Ritch on April 9, 2003, at 9:55:41
Ritch,
I don't have a problem shaking the bottle when it is cold--it seems to even out the differences, even if they might not be completely dissolved.
I guess my other question would be, though, is if it is really so easy to separate the better fatty acids from the more rigid ones, why the fish oil company wouldn't distill the better oils by refrigerating it and skimming it off from the thicker ones? Wouldn't that be a better quality omega 3 product? Ie, with a lot less saturated fat and a lot less omega 6?
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 9, 2003, at 16:19:33
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question » Larry Hoover, posted by Ritch on April 9, 2003, at 13:12:21
> Larry, would bringing the temp of the fishoil up to around 80 or so just for a few minutes every day hurt anything (so I can take an evenly mixed dose of oil)?
I can't see a problem with that. Just don't shake it around so much as to mix a lot of air bubbles into it. Swirl it up. Don't shake it.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 9, 2003, at 16:21:38
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question, posted by noa on April 9, 2003, at 15:50:25
> Thanks, Larry.
>
> It doesn't make the hissing sound once the bottle has been open for the first time. At least, I can't hear anything--just the first opening.I misunderstood you. Cancel the oxidation.
> Re vitamin E--if the fish oil already contains vitamin E?No need to add more, if it's already got some. I thought you meant that it hissed every time you opened it, which is evidence for strictly chemical reactivity (oxidation) or biochemical reactivity (bacterial).
Lar
Posted by Ritch on April 9, 2003, at 23:07:30
In reply to Re: Fish Oil question-solution? » Ritch, posted by noa on April 9, 2003, at 15:53:50
> Ritch,
>
> I don't have a problem shaking the bottle when it is cold--it seems to even out the differences, even if they might not be completely dissolved.
>
> I guess my other question would be, though, is if it is really so easy to separate the better fatty acids from the more rigid ones, why the fish oil company wouldn't distill the better oils by refrigerating it and skimming it off from the thicker ones? Wouldn't that be a better quality omega 3 product? Ie, with a lot less saturated fat and a lot less omega 6?
OK, it looks like warming the contents to get it to clarify is probably OK. That's what I am going to do when I take a dose. Pull it out of the fridge and swirl it around while I run warm water over it until it turns clear. Then pour out a teaspoon dose and then put it back in the frige. From what the label reads it is ALL Omega-3 fatty acids (I just went and read it). Each teaspoon has 1600mg of Omega-3. 800mg EPA+500mg DHA+300mg "other". I'm just as interested in the DHA as the EPA. Perhaps the "other" is what is solidifying? OH well.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2003, at 9:00:16
In reply to thanks both of you, posted by Ritch on April 9, 2003, at 23:07:30
> OK, it looks like warming the contents to get it to clarify is probably OK. That's what I am going to do when I take a dose. Pull it out of the fridge and swirl it around while I run warm water over it until it turns clear. Then pour out a teaspoon dose and then put it back in the frige.
That sounds fine.
>From what the label reads it is ALL Omega-3 fatty acids (I just went and read it). Each teaspoon has 1600mg of Omega-3.
One teaspoon of an oil would be about 4000 mg. There are definitely other fatty acids present.
>800mg EPA+500mg DHA+300mg "other". I'm just as interested in the DHA as the EPA. Perhaps the "other" is what is solidifying? OH well.
I'm sure they mean other omega-3s, like alpha-linolenic.
All the fatty acids in the fish oil are in the form known as a triclyceride. That's a glycerol (same thing as glycerine) molecule attached to three fatty acids by separate ester bonds. Each triglyceride could have any number of combinations of the fatty acids present in the fish oil. You could have one triglyceride molecule with three EPAs tacked on, while the one right next to it has three stearic acids. Stearic acid, by the way, comes from the word meaning "solid". Stearic acid is solid at room temperature. More likely, however, are triglycerides with mixtures of different fatty acids, e.g. one EPA, one stearic, and one oleic. The mixture triglycerides are going to have properties which are mixtures of the properties of the individual fatty acids.
The fish oil stays liquid at room temperature, so there is not likely to be a large number of triglycerides with just stearic acid in them. At refrigerator temperature, there will be enough triglycerides that have dominant saturated character that will condense. Those with dominant polyunsaturated character will not condense, will remain liquid, and will be more easily decanted into the teaspoon. Over time, you'll shift the character of the remaining oil towards saturation, unless you take steps to homogenize it before you decant any.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2003, at 9:26:26
In reply to thanks both of you, posted by Ritch on April 9, 2003, at 23:07:30
>From what the label reads it is ALL Omega-3 fatty acids (I just went and read it). Each teaspoon has 1600mg of Omega-3.
Just because I'm thinking about it.....
There's a table in this paper showing other fatty acids in fish oil:
http://www.restekcorp.com/2002/1572.pdfThis report documents the atrocious fatty acid profile of the typical American diet:
http://www.barc.usda.gov/bhnrc/foodsurvey/pdf/Fatty95.pdfFor a collection demonstrating health effects of fish oil:
http://www.oilofpisces.com/Lar
Posted by Ritch on April 10, 2003, at 10:11:02
In reply to Re: thanks both of you, posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2003, at 9:00:16
> > OK, it looks like warming the contents to get it to clarify is probably OK. That's what I am going to do when I take a dose. Pull it out of the fridge and swirl it around while I run warm water over it until it turns clear. Then pour out a teaspoon dose and then put it back in the frige.
>
> That sounds fine.
>
> >From what the label reads it is ALL Omega-3 fatty acids (I just went and read it). Each teaspoon has 1600mg of Omega-3.
>
> One teaspoon of an oil would be about 4000 mg. There are definitely other fatty acids present.
>
> >800mg EPA+500mg DHA+300mg "other". I'm just as interested in the DHA as the EPA. Perhaps the "other" is what is solidifying? OH well.
>
> I'm sure they mean other omega-3s, like alpha-linolenic.
>
> All the fatty acids in the fish oil are in the form known as a triclyceride. That's a glycerol (same thing as glycerine) molecule attached to three fatty acids by separate ester bonds. Each triglyceride could have any number of combinations of the fatty acids present in the fish oil. You could have one triglyceride molecule with three EPAs tacked on, while the one right next to it has three stearic acids. Stearic acid, by the way, comes from the word meaning "solid". Stearic acid is solid at room temperature. More likely, however, are triglycerides with mixtures of different fatty acids, e.g. one EPA, one stearic, and one oleic. The mixture triglycerides are going to have properties which are mixtures of the properties of the individual fatty acids.
>
> The fish oil stays liquid at room temperature, so there is not likely to be a large number of triglycerides with just stearic acid in them. At refrigerator temperature, there will be enough triglycerides that have dominant saturated character that will condense. Those with dominant polyunsaturated character will not condense, will remain liquid, and will be more easily decanted into the teaspoon. Over time, you'll shift the character of the remaining oil towards saturation, unless you take steps to homogenize it before you decant any.
>
> Lar
>
>
Larry, I went and checked the bottle in the fridge this morning and there is what looks to be a "chunk of lard" laying in the bottom of the bottle (probably several teaspoons), and there is now no liquid that seems to be present at all. I threw the bottle away. Would it be most beneficial to simply use the liquid out of a fresh bottle until the contents begin to become noticeably solidified and then pitch it? Or would it be best to try to get a consistent blend of all the oils present with each dose, by gently heating and stirring the oil prior to each dose? I'm seriously thinking about NOT refrigerating a fresh bottle and just store in a dark, but room temperature location (since they add their own blend of tocopherols to the oil), and see how long it lasts before it begans to become rancid (if it does). What do you think?
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2003, at 11:44:46
In reply to Other fatty acids present..not Omega-3 ? » Larry Hoover, posted by Ritch on April 10, 2003, at 10:11:02
> Larry, I went and checked the bottle in the fridge this morning and there is what looks to be a "chunk of lard" laying in the bottom of the bottle (probably several teaspoons), and there is now no liquid that seems to be present at all. I threw the bottle away.Good call. You already squeezed all the juice out of that orange, ya know?
>Would it be most beneficial to simply use the liquid out of a fresh bottle until the contents begin to become noticeably solidified and then pitch it?
That would improve the ratio of omega-3 fatty acids to the others. On a comparative basis, this would probably be the best option, but without a chemical analysis, it would be hard to know just when the composition really changes.
>Or would it be best to try to get a consistent blend of all the oils present with each dose, by gently heating and stirring the oil prior to each dose? I'm seriously thinking about NOT refrigerating a fresh bottle and just store in a dark, but room temperature location (since they add their own blend of tocopherols to the oil), and see how long it lasts before it begans to become rancid (if it does). What do you think?
Unless the bottle says "refrigerate after opening", keeping it out of light and away from sources of heat should probably be sufficient to keep the oil from rancidity during the time it takes to consume the whole bottle.
Lar
Posted by jetfixer on April 10, 2003, at 11:54:56
In reply to Other fatty acids present..not Omega-3 ? » Larry Hoover, posted by Ritch on April 10, 2003, at 10:11:02
Can you please tell me what the proper dose of fish oil and dhea is for someone that was looking for a little help with mild depression and anxiety.....thanks
Posted by Ritch on April 10, 2003, at 13:21:03
In reply to Re: fish oil question, posted by jetfixer on April 10, 2003, at 11:54:56
> Can you please tell me what the proper dose of fish oil and dhea is for someone that was looking for a little help with mild depression and anxiety.....thanks
Hope somebody answers that one for you better than I. I think it is somewhat individual. From all of the posts I have read here 1G (equivalent) of EPA/day or somewhat more is generally the rule for depression. There are others here that take more or less and also report good results. I've tried DHEA once and it made me irritable. My GP told me to avoid it because he thought the prostate cancer risk was increased by it if you are over 40.
Posted by noa on April 10, 2003, at 16:01:22
In reply to Re: Other fatty acids present..not Omega-3 ? » Ritch, posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2003, at 11:44:46
So, Larry, why wouldn't the fish oil lab separate out the 2 g of non-omega-3's?(which the label on my Carlson's specifies as 1g saturated and 1 g monounsaturated--I wonder why Ritch's bottle doesn't specify). It seems so simple--cool it a bit and separate. Then they could claim a more pure omega 3 product.
Posted by Ritch on April 10, 2003, at 22:58:03
In reply to Re: Other fatty acids present..not Omega-3 ?, posted by noa on April 10, 2003, at 16:01:22
> So, Larry, why wouldn't the fish oil lab separate out the 2 g of non-omega-3's?(which the label on my Carlson's specifies as 1g saturated and 1 g monounsaturated--I wonder why Ritch's bottle doesn't specify). It seems so simple--cool it a bit and separate. Then they could claim a more pure omega 3 product.
Noa, my label is the same as your label. I just looked at the total EPA/DHA listing and reported that only. They just say there are "other" Omega-3's besides EPA/DHA by implication because they say it is ALL Omega-3. I guess this means that there must be *some* Omega-3's that are "saturated" if that makes any sense???
Posted by noa on April 10, 2003, at 23:40:48
In reply to Re: Other fatty acids present..not Omega-3 ? » noa, posted by Ritch on April 10, 2003, at 22:58:03
If you look at the label, look first at the "Total Fat" (right under "Calories" and "Calories from Fat".
Total fat=4 g. Underneath that heading it says Saturated fat= 1 g, polyunsaturated fat=2 g, and monounsaturated fat= 1 g. Then it says Cholesterol 15 mg. THEN, it details the omega 3's: Total Omega-3 ==1600 mg. Under that heading---EPA 800, DHA 500 and "other" 300. This leaves 400 more mg of polyunsaturated fat of some kind, as well.
I believe it is the saturated fat and the monounsaturated, in that order, that settles in the cold temp of the fridge.
I have a question about homogonizing--why must it be done with warming/clarifying? Why can't I just shake up the jar to get a more or less evenly distributed suspension of the different fats? Of course it isn't a homogonized solution, but it does even it out long enough (plus some) to take my dose. It only settles after sitting a while.
Thanks.
Posted by Ritch on April 11, 2003, at 11:47:43
In reply to Re: Other fatty acids present..not Omega-3 ?, posted by noa on April 10, 2003, at 23:40:48
> If you look at the label, look first at the "Total Fat" (right under "Calories" and "Calories from Fat".
>
> Total fat=4 g. Underneath that heading it says Saturated fat= 1 g, polyunsaturated fat=2 g, and monounsaturated fat= 1 g. Then it says Cholesterol 15 mg. THEN, it details the omega 3's: Total Omega-3 ==1600 mg. Under that heading---EPA 800, DHA 500 and "other" 300. This leaves 400 more mg of polyunsaturated fat of some kind, as well.
>
> I believe it is the saturated fat and the monounsaturated, in that order, that settles in the cold temp of the fridge.
>
> I have a question about homogonizing--why must it be done with warming/clarifying? Why can't I just shake up the jar to get a more or less evenly distributed suspension of the different fats? Of course it isn't a homogonized solution, but it does even it out long enough (plus some) to take my dose. It only settles after sitting a while.
>
> Thanks.Hi Noa, I agree with you about the saturated/mono-unstaturated fat being the unwanted stuff that settles in the bottle. I didn't factor all of that in. Larry *did* mention a teaspoon of oil should weigh 4g (which does match the TOTAL FAT listed on the label). I don't see why you couldn't just shake the jar to get it stirred up OK. The trouble I've found is that the oil is so viscous at that temperature it is a little tough to get it shook up and the "lard" accumulates a lot towards the end of the bottle despite some agitation. I really do wish they could give us JUST the Omega-3's, period-the 2g instead of 4g and just indicate using a 1/2-teaspoon per dose instead. Now you have got me wondering about forcing it to solidify by further cooling and filtering off the liquid somehow. I just don't like taking a increasingly saturated fat dosage as the bottle gets used up because the lighter oil is floating in the top of the bottle. That's why I'm heating it and swirling it to clarity before dosing.
Posted by noa on April 11, 2003, at 18:02:28
In reply to Re: Other fatty acids present..not Omega-3 ? » noa, posted by Ritch on April 11, 2003, at 11:47:43
Next time I'm at my pharmacist, I am going to ask him about this.
Posted by McPac on April 11, 2003, at 23:30:50
In reply to Re: Other fatty acids present..not Omega-3 ? » noa, posted by Ritch on April 10, 2003, at 22:58:03
My question is at the END of this study.
Fish oil and margarine don't go together
ADELAIDE, AUSTRALIA. Fish oil supplements containing EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) have an anti-inflammatory effect and may benefit people suffering from rheumatoid arthritis and psoriasis. This beneficial effect is significantly reduced when the diet is high in linoleic acid. A seven week controlled experiment involving 30 male volunteers was recently completed in Australia. The participants were given 1.6 gram EPA and 0.32 gram DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) daily. Half the volunteers were kept on a diet high in linoleic acid by using margarine as a spread and polyunsaturated oils for cooking. The other half used butter and olive oil which are low in linoleic acid. The experiment clearly showed that the incorporation of fish oil is enhanced by a diet containing butter and fish oil. Margarine and polyunsaturated oils had an inhibiting effect and should therefore be excluded from the diet in order to obtain maximum benefit from fish oil.
Cleland, Leslie G., et al. Linoleate inhibits EPA incorporation from dietary fish-oil supplements in human subjects. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 55, February 1992, pp. 395-99So, is the margarine and linoleic acid negating the fish oil benefits only for people taking it for psoriasis & rheumatoid arthritis (inflammatory problems) OR is the linoleic acid reducing the fish oil benefits for EVERYBODY taking fish oil for ALL conditions, such as depression?
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 12, 2003, at 7:12:39
In reply to Larry/Ritch/Noa, posted by McPac on April 11, 2003, at 23:30:50
> So, is the margarine and linoleic acid negating the fish oil benefits only for people taking it for psoriasis & rheumatoid arthritis (inflammatory problems) OR is the linoleic acid reducing the fish oil benefits for EVERYBODY taking fish oil for ALL conditions, such as depression?
Sounds like they mean everybody. I wish they were more explicit about what they meant by the word "incorporation".
Posted by bluedog on April 17, 2003, at 1:39:44
In reply to Re: Larry/Ritch/Noa, posted by Larry Hoover on April 12, 2003, at 7:12:39
> > So, is the margarine and linoleic acid negating the fish oil benefits only for people taking it for psoriasis & rheumatoid arthritis (inflammatory problems) OR is the linoleic acid reducing the fish oil benefits for EVERYBODY taking fish oil for ALL conditions, such as depression?
>
> Sounds like they mean everybody. I wish they were more explicit about what they meant by the word "incorporation".
>Hi Larry and others who have contributed to this thread!!
My question relates to GAMMA linoleic acid (GLA) found in Evening Primrose Oil (EPO).
I was firmly of the belief that consuming GLA in the presence of Fish oil (especially the EPA and DHA content therein) was actually beneficial as the fish oil has the effect of pushing the GLA found in EPO down a pathway whereby the body converted the GLA to ANTI-INFLAMMATORY prostaglandins in the human body.
Is my belief correct and does GLA in the presence of fish oil actually enhance the beneficial effects of both these oils (ie these oils act synergistically in the body)????
How does this relate to the Adelaide study cited above???
thanks guys
bluedog
Posted by bluedog on April 19, 2003, at 10:18:39
Hi Larry
I hope your feeling better. I'm relieved that you are still around:).
If you are well enough would you be able to answer the question I posed in the following thread. Bob must have archived my questions when you were flat on your back
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030411/msgs/219974.html
If your not well enough yet to respond I'll understand completely and will probably pose this question in another week or so.
Thanks Larry
warm regards
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 19, 2003, at 11:59:37
In reply to What about GLA found in Evening Primrose Oil?? » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on April 17, 2003, at 1:39:44
> > > So, is the margarine and linoleic acid negating the fish oil benefits only for people taking it for psoriasis & rheumatoid arthritis (inflammatory problems) OR is the linoleic acid reducing the fish oil benefits for EVERYBODY taking fish oil for ALL conditions, such as depression?
> >
> > Sounds like they mean everybody. I wish they were more explicit about what they meant by the word "incorporation".
> >
>
> Hi Larry and others who have contributed to this thread!!
>
> My question relates to GAMMA linoleic acid (GLA) found in Evening Primrose Oil (EPO).
>
> I was firmly of the belief that consuming GLA in the presence of Fish oil (especially the EPA and DHA content therein) was actually beneficial as the fish oil has the effect of pushing the GLA found in EPO down a pathway whereby the body converted the GLA to ANTI-INFLAMMATORY prostaglandins in the human body.
>
> Is my belief correct and does GLA in the presence of fish oil actually enhance the beneficial effects of both these oils (ie these oils act synergistically in the body)????That's my understanding.
J Nutr 2000 Aug;130(8):1925-31
Addition of eicosapentaenoic acid to gamma-linolenic acid-supplemented diets prevents serum arachidonic acid accumulation in humans.Barham JB, Edens MB, Fonteh AN, Johnson MM, Easter L, Chilton FH.
Department of Internal Medicine, Wake Forest University School of Medicine, Winston-Salem, NC 27157, USA.
Previous studies reveal that supplementation of human diets with gamma-linolenic acid (GLA) reduces the generation of lipid mediators of inflammation and attenuates clinical symptoms of chronic inflammatory disorders such as rheumatoid arthritis. However, we have shown that supplementation with this same fatty acid also causes a marked increase in serum arachidonate (AA) levels, a potentially harmful side effect. The objective of this study was to design a supplementation strategy that maintained the capacity of GLA to reduce lipid mediators without causing elevations in serum AA levels. Initial in vitro studies utilizing HEP-G2 liver cells revealed that addition of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) blocked Delta-5-desaturase activity, the terminal enzymatic step in AA synthesis. To test the in vivo effects of a GLA and EPA combination in humans, adult volunteers consuming controlled diets supplemented these diets with 3.0 g/d of GLA and EPA. This supplementation strategy significantly increased serum levels of EPA, but did not increase AA levels. EPA and the elongation product of GLA, dihomo-gamma-linolenic acid (DGLA) levels in neutrophil glycerolipids increased significantly during the 3-wk supplementation period. Neutrophils isolated from volunteers fed diets supplemented with GLA and EPA released similar quantities of AA, but synthesized significantly lower quantities of leukotrienes compared with their neutrophils before supplementation. This study revealed that a GLA and EPA supplement combination may be utilized to reduce the synthesis of proinflammatory AA metabolites, and importantly, not induce potentially harmful increases in serum AA levels.
The combination seems to go a long way in reducing the risk of myocardial infarction, as well.Am J Clin Nutr 2003 Jan;77(1):37-42
Effects of supplementation with fish oil-derived n-3 fatty acids and gamma-linolenic acid on circulating plasma lipids and fatty acid profiles in women.Laidlaw M, Holub BJ.
Department of Human Biology and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Canada.
BACKGROUND: Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), and gamma-linolenic acid (GLA) have lipid-modifying and antiinflammatory properties. The effects of supplement mixtures of these fatty acids on plasma lipids and the fatty acid compositions of serum phospholipids have received little attention. OBJECTIVE: The objective was to determine the effects of different levels of GLA supplementation together with a constant intake of EPA plus DHA on the triacylglycerol-lowering effect of EPA plus DHA alone and on the fatty acid patterns (eicosanoid precursors) of serum phospholipids. DESIGN: Thirty-one women were assigned to 1 of 4 groups, equalized on the basis of their fasting triacylglycerol concentrations. They received supplements providing 4 g EPA+DHA (4:0, EPA+DHA:GLA; control group), 4 g EPA+DHA plus 1 g GLA (4:1), 2 g GLA (4:2), or 4 g GLA (4:4) daily for 28 d. Plasma lipids and fatty acids of serum phospholipids were measured on days 0 and 28. RESULTS: Plasma triacylglycerol concentrations were significantly lower on day 28 than on day 0 in the 4:0, 4:1, and 4:2 groups. LDL cholesterol decreased significantly (by 11.3%) in the 4:2 group. Dihomo-gamma-linolenic acid increased significantly in serum phospholipids only in the 4:2 and 4:4 groups; however, total n-3 fatty acids increased in all 4 groups. CONCLUSIONS: A mixture of 4 g EPA+DHA and 2 g GLA favorably altered blood lipid and fatty acid profiles in healthy women. On the basis of calculated PROCAM values, the 4:2 group was estimated to have a 43% reduction in the 10-y risk of myocardial infarction.
> How does this relate to the Adelaide study cited above???
>
> thanks guys
> bluedogI'm not sure what to make of the Adelaide study.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 19, 2003, at 12:15:19
In reply to Larry/Ritch/Noa, posted by McPac on April 11, 2003, at 23:30:50
> My question is at the END of this study.
>
> Fish oil and margarine don't go together
> ADELAIDE, AUSTRALIA. Fish oil supplements containing EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) have an anti-inflammatory effect and may benefit people suffering from rheumatoid arthritis and psoriasis. This beneficial effect is significantly reduced when the diet is high in linoleic acid. A seven week controlled experiment involving 30 male volunteers was recently completed in Australia. The participants were given 1.6 gram EPA and 0.32 gram DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) daily. Half the volunteers were kept on a diet high in linoleic acid by using margarine as a spread and polyunsaturated oils for cooking. The other half used butter and olive oil which are low in linoleic acid. The experiment clearly showed that the incorporation of fish oil is enhanced by a diet containing butter and fish oil. Margarine and polyunsaturated oils had an inhibiting effect and should therefore be excluded from the diet in order to obtain maximum benefit from fish oil.
> Cleland, Leslie G., et al. Linoleate inhibits EPA incorporation from dietary fish-oil supplements in human subjects. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 55, February 1992, pp. 395-99
>
> So, is the margarine and linoleic acid negating the fish oil benefits only for people taking it for psoriasis & rheumatoid arthritis (inflammatory problems) OR is the linoleic acid reducing the fish oil benefits for EVERYBODY taking fish oil for ALL conditions, such as depression?It would appear that linoleate intake is a strong determinant of EPA uptake and incorporation into phospholipids, but does not affect DHA. This is true for all people, I would think. It's quite obvious in the following study in rats, too.
Biochim Biophys Acta 1992 Dec 2;1165(2):194-200
Influence of an increased intake of linoleic acid on the incorporation of dietary (n-3) fatty acids in phospholipids and on prostanoid synthesis in rat tissues.
Raederstorff D, Moser U.
F. Hoffman-La Roche, Department of Vitamin and Nutrition Research, Basel, Switzerland.
We investigated whether the amount of dietary linoleic acid (LA) (as corn oil) influences the incorporation of dietary eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) or docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) in tissue phospholipids and the prostanoid biosynthesis. Rats were fed four different levels of corn oil (at a total dietary fat level of either 2.5%, 5%, 10% or 20%); at each corn oil level, two groups of rats were supplemented with either EPA and DHA (200 mg/day) during 6 weeks, and compared with a group receiving oleic acid. The phospholipid fatty acid composition of liver, kidney and aorta showed, as expected, that the incorporation of EPA was highly suppressed by increasing the content of dietary linoleic acid in the diets. On the other hand, DHA was almost unaffected by the amounts of (n - 6) fatty acids in the diets. These results indicate that EPA levels but not DHA levels in tissue phospholipids were influenced by the competing dietary (n - 6) fatty acids. The tissue arachidonate content was similar under the various dietary linoleic acid conditions, but feeding EPA or DHA lowers the AA content. Moreover, the amount of dietary linoleic acid did not significantly influence the prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) production in stimulated aortic rings. However, PGE2 synthesis was significantly decreased in the groups treated with either EPA or DHA. Thromboxane B2 levels in serum followed a similar pattern. It is suggested that an increase of dietary (n - 3) PUFAs is more efficient to reduce (n - 6) eicosanoid formation than a decrease of dietary (n - 6) fatty acids.
Posted by Jaynee on April 19, 2003, at 12:30:23
In reply to If your better I want to revive this thread-LARRY!, posted by bluedog on April 19, 2003, at 10:18:39
Posted by bluedog on April 20, 2003, at 3:19:26
In reply to Recent article on essential fatty acids brain, posted by Jaynee on April 19, 2003, at 12:30:23
> http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/CJP/current/haag.pdf
Thankyou Jaynee
I've saved this article to my hard-drive for future reference.
This article confirms my belief and it's apparent that omega-6 acids do NOT actually reduce the effectiveness of fish oil and that that omega-3 and omega-6 do act synergistically in the human body and in the brain.
However the most important thing is that the RATIOS of omega-6 to omega-3 need to be addressed and too much of either of these EFA's may reduce the effectiveness of the other (ie an imbalance of what the body naturally requires). It's just that in the Western diet the ratio is out of whack and most of us get too much omega-6 and not enough omega-3. I think that the conclusions of the Adelaide study cited above in this thread need to be interpreted in this context and therefore the results should be interpreted with care.
I know this issue has come up before on the med board!!
warm regards
bluedog
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