![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 126 to 150 of 262. Go back in thread:
Posted by blah on February 25, 2003, at 7:49:37
In reply to Re: Near the end., posted by bee happy on February 24, 2003, at 21:20:52
You have to understand this has been my whole life. I never get better. For me to get better I would need basic things in my life to improve like a significant other who was supportive, and who I could give myself to, but things like this aren’t possible. I have more than depression. I hate DSM language, and I don’t fully fit any diagnosis, but if I were to use that language I would say that I am a mixture of Depression, Dysthymia, Anxiety, Avoidant Personality Disorder, but at my core I feel I mainly have Schizotypal Personality Disorder. I don’t fit the entire description, but here is a link that describes it relatively well (keep in mind I don’t believe in UFOs but have most of the negative symptoms, and do have a problem functioning in reality):
http://www.toad.net/~arcturus/dd/schtypal.htm
I’m also completely isolated, live on SSI, and have no energy to do even things I want to do, or basic things like cleaning and cooking. None of my few friends understand, and when I try to explain it they say I just think about it to much. I’ve been in extreme emotional pain my whole life, but I never imagined it could hurt this much, and every day it gets worse. I’ve realized there are just parts of me missing, and I can’t even hope to fill them at all without serious help. Doctors don’t care. They want to fix something that can’t be fixed with cures that don’t work. I get sinus infections almost twice a month now. My former GP wants me to get another CAT scan of my sinuses (I’ve done this twice so far and it showed nothing). I’ve explained to him that this is ultimately a physical symptom of my mental illness, and that all he can do is treat the symptoms with antibiotics (I don’t like taking them but there isn’t much else to do), but he now won’t rx them without yet another intense exam that will show nothing, waste my time, and add to my hopelessness. My “expert” Pdoc can rx an opioid, but will not until I try pretty much every useless psychiatric drug out there. I learned from taking almost every antidepressant that if a drug feels like crap it won’t work, in fact it will make me worse. Zyprexa, an A Typical antipsychotic made me feel even worse than the antidepressant (and they made me feel like death), and now he wants me to try another one, and when that one sinks me a little more, another one, and another, and another. I already crave an end to this pain that will never leave. He knows about the studies with Buprenorphine and doesn’t give a sh**. Better I should kill myself than risk “HORROR!” addiction. I never have done opiates, if I had he would be more willing to use opioids since I could say I felt the depression lift. Well, now I’ll see for myself if it will help. If you can leave me a way that I can contact those doctors in Boston I will call them and see if they know a more willing and helpful Doctor in my area. I also keep asking for Social Skills or Surrogate Therapy, but I just get directed to more useless, judgmental group therapy or harmful meds. There’s just no place for me. I’m to smart to be in a low IQ program, too nonfunctional and incomplete for normal therapy or drugs to help, not psychotic so programs for people with schizophrenia won’t help, and I’m too weird; peculiar; and socially unskilled to meet women and feel that part of life, and gain some comfort from intimate encouragement, and just being held. Maybe if Ultram or Buprenorphine could take away even a good fraction of my mental and physical pain I could start to function, and maybe build some sort of life for myself no matter how incomplete. Doctors don’t care about me they only care bout their egos and their theories, and when you don’t feed either you aren’t a special case, you are only an enemy, and they treat you like one. I’ve felt it time and time again. My pain won’t get better on its own, it will get worse. I’ve run out of options, energy, hope, and time. I feel so empty now I’m not even sure if there is anything left to save.
Posted by jaby on February 25, 2003, at 10:02:51
In reply to Near the end., posted by Blah on February 24, 2003, at 13:55:49
I would strongly consider talking to you doc about ECT. I have seen it save my sister's life.
Posted by androog on February 25, 2003, at 11:10:34
In reply to Re: Near the end., posted by blah on February 25, 2003, at 7:49:37
hi blah,
man, your are in a world of hurt. i think everyone in this group knows what that is like. when i felt like you do i couldn't believe that anyone was even close to feeling as bad as i did. i thought i was the most hurtin'ist thing on earth and it couldn't be matched by any living thing.but i was wrong. i felt like that and am alive today to tell about it.
right now, this is no consolation to you. you're at the end of your rope and words are hollow. everyone keeps telling you try this and try that, but you've tried this and that and it hasn't helped. you're probably tired of hearing all these bits of advice and really only want a magic pill that will take it all or most of it away FAST. you're frustrated, hopeless, lonely, angry and tired.the thought of going to an emergency room for help probably makes you want to scream because you think nobody will care or try to relieve your pain with drugs designed to treat physical pain.
i remember thinking that if i had a broken leg or some serious injury, nobody would expect me to go through endless trials to get some relief. what you're feeling right now is not much different than extreme physical pain. problem is, the powers in charge have most likely never felt the agony of major depression. in the back of their minds the're probably thinking "there's no blood, no quantifying evidence of pain. it can't be all that bad", if they're thinking at all. but they're wrong. your hurt is coming at you from all angles and not just through some pain receptor in your brain, so it's even worse than a broken leg.
i have no magic bullet to offer you and words have long since lost their effect, BUT, i have a question. you said you had ordered some ultram online. have you recieved it yet? if so, have you tried it? if you haven't tried it yet, then there is some immediate hope. i felt EXACTLY the way you describe and the tramadol pulled me right through it. i'm not kidding or trying to stall you. i was totally suicidal one minute and the next i felt an interest in life and was eager to do things. things that dragged me down to the bottom of despair an hour ago became minor nuisances that i could deal with.
i just read a quote from a research doc who said what i've been thinking all along but have not found the words for. he said this regarding antidepressants, but it also describes the way the tramadol has worked for me "we think the drugs allow people to recover. we think they work at quite a cognitive level. they change the biases that exist in the brain to see the bad in things versus the good."
this was my exact experience with ultram. i felt no physical change at all. my attitude just did a 180 degree turn. obstacles were much easier to face and hardly bothered me at all.
i'm saying this because you have a litany of things that seem insurmountable right now, especially the lonliness and need for the comfort a significant other. real physical contact and not just more words.
i want to tell you that once you get past the major depression the other things will start to fall in place because you will feel capable of dealing with them. they'll be a challenge that you're finally up to.
i know i'm not supposed to hand out medical advice here, but i can't just sit by and watch you work your way into suicide. give the tramadol a chance. don't take more than a couple and give them an hour and a half to work. don't be tempted to take a handful. more is not better in this case, and i'd tell you if it were.
PLEASE let us know when you've tried this. AND PLEASE DON'T KILL YOURSELF! believe it or don't, we need stories like yours here. they remind us all of how bad this thing is and that we're not alone in feeling this way. if the ultram helps you, it can help others by giving them hope; letting them know something can actually help.
you can't undo suicide and who knows what awaits us on the other side? probably not ultram.
hang on and let us know what happens with the ultram.
i may get booted off this chat room by singing the praises of tramadol, but, for crying out loud, don't do anything until you've tried it. and if it doesn't help, let us know about that, too. i am totally convinced that there is some unorthodox treatment that will help you.
androog
Posted by hok on February 25, 2003, at 11:55:34
In reply to Re: Near the end., posted by androog on February 25, 2003, at 11:10:34
to androog, bee happy and the others in the 'opiate gang,'
You guys all seem to be pretty content with the effectiveness of these drugs. But can you enlighten us on some (if any) of the side effects that you experience? The research points to some issues with nausea, dysphoria, etc.
Can you please describe any physical as well cognitive issues that accompany ultram and/or buph? For example, how much cognitive impairment (e.g. memory recall, brain fog) is there? Any resulting decrease in drive or motivation? Some have said that it has kept them up while others say they are somewhat somnolescent on them. Can you please enlighten us?
thanks, HK
Posted by BrittPark on February 25, 2003, at 13:12:11
In reply to Re: side effects of buprenorphine and ultram, posted by hok on February 25, 2003, at 11:55:34
I can only speak to the opioid class since I've never taken buprenorphine or tramadol. I take 1 5/500 vicodin a day, usually in the evening. I experience no side effects. When I've been prescribed vicodin or codeine after surgery the only side effect I've noticed was constipation, which was easily addressed with sodium docusate. After the one surgery I had under general anaesthetic, I woke feeling nauseated, but did not vomit. Commonly the very short acting opioid fentanyl is used during surgery. In sum I've experienced very few side effects on opioids. However everyone's mileage will vary.
Britt
Posted by blah on February 25, 2003, at 15:16:36
In reply to Re: Near the end.Blah, posted by jaby on February 25, 2003, at 10:02:51
> I would strongly consider talking to you doc about ECT. I have seen it save my sister's life.
I believe that ECT would make things worse for me, the way it did for androog. My primary problem is not depression but missing parts of my personality. ECT won’t fix that, and my therapist agrees. Also, it is permanent and many believe it’s temporary antidepressant effects is only the result of shock from brain trauma. It doesn’t make sense for me to try something so irreparable, that will have such temporary results before I try Ultram or another opioid. I won’t be receiving it for a while, and am not sure how to hold out till then. The Emergency room can only isolate me, shame me, and keep me away from my order. What I feel is chronic not temporary, it only gets better with extreme social support, and even then only for a few hours after that support stops. My therapist said its like being fed, and I guess it is. I’ve been “fed” so little in my life. All of these “approved” psychiatric drugs seem to take more away from me, not give things back, and I don’t have much left that I can give up.
Posted by Dog Breath on February 25, 2003, at 17:34:26
In reply to Near the end., posted by Blah on February 24, 2003, at 13:55:49
> I tryed Zyprexa and it was even worse than antidepressants, appart from the physical symtems it made my depression much worse. My "expert" pdoc just gave me some geodon instead. I don't think I'm going to take it. My depression has gotten to the point where everything is pain. I eat and am still hungry. I sleep and am still tired. Every thought every breath is pain. Talking to people is harder than it has ever been, and that's saying alot for me. I ordered some Ultram over the internet because buenanophine (i probably spelled it wrong) is new so it's too expencive and hard to find. If it doesn't work, or if some other miricle (like a supportive girl friend) doesn't happen I will most likely commit suicide. It's hurt to much for too long and pdocs don't give a sh**. Thearapy can do no more for me after 24 years. These new psyc meds are just as crappy as the old and i don't have the time or energy anymore for endless drug trials just to satisfy the "ethics" of my doctors. It just hurts so much, and I have no hope left.
>
>
>
>
Please be careful with Ultram. It's a great drug that will improve your mood without making you feel "high". I have used it episodically for pain. The problem comes when you run out. The withdrawl is very unpleasant and definitely worsens or causes depression. I don't use it anymore because of the rebound depression, even after only a few days use.
Posted by bee happy on February 25, 2003, at 21:22:02
In reply to Re: Near the end., posted by blah on February 25, 2003, at 7:49:37
Blah, Androog would make a wonderful therapist. Listen . In the meantime you could try reaching Dr Bodkin at Mcclean Hospital in Boston. I don't have the number but I 'm sure you can get it through information. The area code is 617 i believe. Try. Please. IT will make you feel better to know you're doing everything you can until your ultram arrives.
Posted by bee happy on February 25, 2003, at 22:26:55
In reply to Re: side effects of buprenorphine and ultram, posted by hok on February 25, 2003, at 11:55:34
Hi Hoc. I have no compalaints with the buprnorphine, but I think I might be alone in this. Many have had tolerance issues and for some it just plain stopped working. I have been at the same dose for nearly six months.6-8 mg per day depending on absorbtion which seems to vary depending on how watery my mouth is) I still marvel at the effectiveness in fact. I have much more drive. I have neither nausea nor dysphoria.My immediate recall memory seems to be suffering of late but I'm menopausal....so I write it off to that.Most of my peers seem to have the same problem.And if it's the drug causing it ..I'd trade those brain cells for my will to live any day. It am feeling more outgoing and comfortable in social situations. I can concentrate again. I can read again. I can make decisions and not kill my self wondering if I did the right thing. I'm still anxious at times and am still sad at times...that is normal.I see beauty in everyday events and when especially struck by something, marvel at the difference in my life now and the hellish place I inhabited eight months ago. I know there must be a downside somewhere...but the only thing I can see is the fear of addiction. Why is more noble to go through life depressed than to risk addiction? Truly it is time for a backlash on this issue. If I need Betty Fords help someday....well, at least I'm here to need it. Bee
Posted by KrissyP on February 25, 2003, at 23:11:45
In reply to Near the end., posted by Blah on February 24, 2003, at 13:55:49
> I tryed Zyprexa and it was even worse than antidepressants, appart from the physical symtems it made my depression much worse. My "expert" pdoc just gave me some geodon instead. I don't think I'm going to take it. My depression has gotten to the point where everything is pain. I eat and am still hungry. I sleep and am still tired. Every thought every breath is pain. Talking to people is harder than it has ever been, and that's saying alot for me. I ordered some Ultram over the internet because buenanophine (i probably spelled it wrong) is new so it's too expencive and hard to find. If it doesn't work, or if some other miricle (like a supportive girl friend) doesn't happen I will most likely commit suicide. It's hurt to much for too long and pdocs don't give a sh**. Thearapy can do no more for me after 24 years. These new psyc meds are just as crappy as the old and i don't have the time or energy anymore for endless drug trials just to satisfy the "ethics" of my doctors. It just hurts so much, and I have no hope left.------------I can tell you that I have felt EXACTLY how you feel in this post, and never felt so much pain as I have in the last few days. You have choices. I have choices and it is one heck of a FIGHT---I know, you CAN and WILL find strength and get back your hope-I believe in you and no, I may not know who you are, but I do know how you feel. I have struggled with a loneliness, and depression so bad at times that I tried suicide---2x it is NOT worth it. Things will pass, and be assertive with your doc or a doc that will listen to you- YOU DESERVE to be heard, ny friend. Don't let anyone tell you different, please. I can't say either things will get better, but I hope they do for you. I too have so often said "no one gives a s#@!" but the fact of the matter is, some do and some don't. In regards to your post, I care because I hear your despair. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make things better-but I cannot. Keep hanging in and if need be, please get to the ER.
>
>
>
>
Posted by Questionmark on February 26, 2003, at 2:04:17
In reply to Near the end., posted by Blah on February 24, 2003, at 13:55:49
Blah-- i'm so sorry. i don't think i've ever felt as hopeless as you seem to feel, but i understand the "every thought every breath is pain" comment. It is terrible. It is freaking, terrible. Listen, i think EVERY pharmaceutical can cause addiction to some extent, but it's obvious you need something potent at this point (good potent not just fry your brains potent). i think an opiate or an MAOI might be able to help you alot more than those other petty drugs, and help you improve your life. Try to find a doctor who will prescribe you something like this. Nardil/phenelzine might be a good idea. Have you been on? i can totally understand how you'd be sick as sh*t of guniea pigging around for these arrogant *** *oles, always in vain. Psychiatry is so often ridiculous. But don't give up before trying some of the powerful blessed drugs like opiates and MAOIs. You might as well, right? Just in case? Good luck man.
Posted by Stan on February 26, 2003, at 5:17:57
In reply to Re: side effects of buprenorphine and ultram, posted by hok on February 25, 2003, at 11:55:34
> to androog, bee happy and the others in the 'opiate gang,'
>
> You guys all seem to be pretty content with the effectiveness of these drugs. But can you enlighten us on some (if any) of the side effects that you experience? The research points to some issues with nausea, dysphoria, etc.
>
> Can you please describe any physical as well cognitive issues that accompany ultram and/or buph? For example, how much cognitive impairment (e.g. memory recall, brain fog) is there? Any resulting decrease in drive or motivation? Some have said that it has kept them up while others say they are somewhat somnolescent on them. Can you please enlighten us?
>
> thanks, HK>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ultram side effects can potentially be problematic for people who have had adverse experiences with SSRIs and SNRIs(such as Effexor), or for that matter any psychiatric drug which inhibits the reuptake of serotonin and/or norepinephrine. that's because ultram has the same mechanism of action (combined of course with its effects on the opiate receptors). if you are one of those folks who finds drugs like effexor to be uncomfortably "activating," provoking anxiety, nervousness, restlessness, etc., then i'd tread very carefully with ultram. i fit into the category just mentioned -- i took 1/2 of a (150 mg?) tablet just once for knee pain and was squirmy and unable to sit still for hours, with negative thoughts racing away. i couldn't wait for it to wear off, and i wouldn't touch it again for the world. if you're susceptible to feeling 'wired' from drugs that enhance NE, tread with caution.
on the other hand, people who have a history of responding to meds which block the reuptake of serotonin and norepinephrine may notice an anti-depressant effect and feel more pleasantly energized.
Stan
Posted by blah on February 26, 2003, at 12:59:10
In reply to Re: Near the end., posted by Questionmark on February 26, 2003, at 2:04:17
Thanks, actually I did try Nardil. It didn't help my thinking problems, and it just made me jumpy. When the dose was too high I just felt like a zombie. We'll see how Ultram works, if it does I'll try to get an rx from someone.
> Blah-- i'm so sorry. i don't think i've ever felt as hopeless as you seem to feel, but i understand the "every thought every breath is pain" comment. It is terrible. It is freaking, terrible. Listen, i think EVERY pharmaceutical can cause addiction to some extent, but it's obvious you need something potent at this point (good potent not just fry your brains potent). i think an opiate or an MAOI might be able to help you alot more than those other petty drugs, and help you improve your life. Try to find a doctor who will prescribe you something like this. Nardil/phenelzine might be a good idea. Have you been on? i can totally understand how you'd be sick as sh*t of guniea pigging around for these arrogant *** *oles, always in vain. Psychiatry is so often ridiculous. But don't give up before trying some of the powerful blessed drugs like opiates and MAOIs. You might as well, right? Just in case? Good luck man.
Posted by Ilene on February 27, 2003, at 13:57:51
In reply to Re: chat room, posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2003, at 1:51:35
> > I was told about a chat room set up for us on Yahoo...
>
> FYI, posting is turned off there, since people can just post here. To chat, as opposed to post, there, go to:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-open/chat
>
> BobI tried to sign up for yahoo groups, but I haven't gotten an e-mail from them. I can't find "what to do if you don't get an e-mail from us" in the FAQ. I just tested my e-mail connection by sending a message from one ID to another that has a different domain name.
Has something gone wrong or does it take a long time to get the confirmation e-mail?
Posted by Gracie2 on February 27, 2003, at 18:30:11
In reply to Re: Near the end., posted by blah on February 26, 2003, at 12:59:10
Please consider admission to a psychiatric facility. Your level of depression requires much more intensive treatment than you are recieving now. Experimenting with different drugs will only make things worse. I know how you feel, and I know what I'm talking about. I nearly succeeded in killing myself not once but twice, first an accidental and then an intentional overdose. Now, a year later, I'm well on the road to recovery.
If you would like more information about in-patient treatment, please write me at gracie2114@aol.com.
God bless-
Gracie
Posted by Ilene on February 27, 2003, at 19:36:57
In reply to Re: chat room » Dr. Bob, posted by Ilene on February 27, 2003, at 13:57:51
> > > I was told about a chat room set up for us on Yahoo...
> >
> > FYI, posting is turned off there, since people can just post here. To chat, as opposed to post, there, go to:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-open/chat
> >
> > Bob
>
> I tried to sign up for yahoo groups, but I haven't gotten an e-mail from them. I can't find "what to do if you don't get an e-mail from us" in the FAQ. I just tested my e-mail connection by sending a message from one ID to another that has a different domain name.
>
> Has something gone wrong or does it take a long time to get the confirmation e-mail?
>
>
My apologies. I was responding to a different thread. I have no idea how my question wound up in this thread.
Anyone know why this happened, or it a chat room curse?--I.
Posted by jrbecker on March 4, 2003, at 11:23:09
In reply to Re: chat room » Ilene, posted by Ilene on February 27, 2003, at 19:36:57
Androog, or any other fellow Chicagoans... wondering if you had found a pdoc who was comfortable with alternative therapies such as opioid treament. Dr. Bodkin had recommended a few psychopharmacologists, but no one who does private practice.
Let me know if you had any success. My email is: jrbecker76@hotmail.com
thanks
JRB
Posted by androog on March 4, 2003, at 12:02:20
In reply to Re: androog, others..any luck with a Chicago pdoc?, posted by jrbecker on March 4, 2003, at 11:23:09
hi jr,
my guy is very UNcomfortable with prescribing alternative treatments for major depressive disorders. although he gives me a script for ultram, he only did it after i yipped at him like a toy poodle.
i, too, would be very interested in finding a chicagoland pdoc who is willing to give other treatments a go.
although i get the maximum daily dose of ultram, i need to take twice that amount in order for it to be effective. i'd really like to give the buprenorphine a try so i don't have to scrounge for more drugs than prescribed.
androog
Posted by jrbecker on March 4, 2003, at 22:15:02
In reply to Re: androog, others..any luck with a Chicago pdoc?, posted by androog on March 4, 2003, at 12:02:20
Thought this was interesting. The link below provides a directory to doctors accredited for opioid treatments. Unfortunately, this list of physicians refer to specialists who treat opiate addiction. But perhaps they might be somewhere to start in trying to find someone who will consider opioids for depression treatment...
http://manisses.com/2online/PUAlert/PA.html#clinical%20Updates
----------------------------------
Online directory of doctors
prescribing buprenorphine createdThe Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) recently announced the formation of an online directory of physicians who can prescribe buprenorphine — approved by the FDA in October — for the treatment of opiate addiction. The online directory will be updated daily as physicians send their credentials to SAMHSA and are issued an identification number by the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA). Physicians seeking information on how to receive training and become credentialed can call (866) 287-2728. The directory can be accessed at "www.buprenorphine.samhsa.gov" [SAMHSA]
Posted by blah on March 5, 2003, at 23:42:13
In reply to Directory of docs prescribing buprenorphine , posted by jrbecker on March 4, 2003, at 22:15:02
I just got my shipment of Ultram (actually generic Ultram) tonight. I've only taken one 50mg pill so far and haven't felt much, but it might have helped a bit (then again I say that at the early small doses of almost every med, then as the dose goes up, "Horror!")Tomarrow I guess I'll go up to 100mg, but don't know how often I should take it. Does anyone know how many times a day I should take Ultram, and how far apart the doses should be? Anyway we'll see how well it works in the coming week.
Posted by Ilene on March 6, 2003, at 9:10:49
In reply to Glory be to thailand, posted by blah on March 5, 2003, at 23:42:13
> I just got my shipment of Ultram (actually generic Ultram) tonight.
Where do you live? I've heard of a drug called amineptine (survector or maneon) that was pulled from the market because it makes people feel good. Good enough that it was "abused" by a few people.
If your drugs don't go thru customs, do they come and arrest you?
--I
Posted by Ilene on March 6, 2003, at 9:16:59
In reply to Re: Glory be to thailand, posted by Ilene on March 6, 2003, at 9:10:49
> Where do you live? I've heard of a drug called amineptine (survector or maneon) that was pulled from the market because it makes people feel good. Good enough that it was "abused" by a few people.
>
>
> --I
>PS: there's a related drug called tianeptine (stablon, coaxil).
Posted by ShelliR on March 6, 2003, at 10:19:48
In reply to Re: Glory be to thailand, posted by Ilene on March 6, 2003, at 9:10:49
> If your drugs don't go thru customs, do they come and arrest you?
>
> --INo arrests :-)
When my overseas order didn't go through customs, I got a letter saying that I could appeal the decision. Which of course I didn't.Shelli
Posted by Ilene on March 6, 2003, at 11:24:17
In reply to Re: Glory be to thailand » Ilene, posted by ShelliR on March 6, 2003, at 10:19:48
> No arrests :-)
> When my overseas order didn't go through customs, I got a letter saying that I could appeal the decision. Which of course I didn't.
>
> Shelli
>
>
What did you order?
Posted by blah on March 6, 2003, at 12:14:37
In reply to Re: Glory be to thailand, posted by Ilene on March 6, 2003, at 9:10:49
From what I've heard they seize your package and send you a letter asking if you want to contest it (though more often than not it gets through). Sometimes they'll even send it back to you after a while. I heard one story of the DEA going to a guy's house to threaten him, but they still took no action. At worst you mainly risk seizure and loosing your money. There are american internet pharmacies that will give you a "doctor consultation" but they are much more expencive.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.