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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by JonW on December 25, 2002, at 11:05:17
In reply to Re: What's so bad about Marijuana?, posted by Mr Cushing on December 25, 2002, at 10:54:41
How often do you smoke? What would be considered "in moderation"?
Thanks,
Jon
Posted by jimmygold70 on December 25, 2002, at 11:45:41
In reply to What's so bad about Marijuana?, posted by JonW on December 25, 2002, at 9:04:44
Marijuanna doesn't do much and for the most it's a placebo effect. After talking to a couple of professors in the field - that's what they have said.
My SUBJECTIVE observation is that in all cases people suffering from psychological disorder, they get much worse while on Marijuanna or Hash. It seems to make anxiety far worse. I thinks it does little, but sometimes enough to bring you from a fair state to somewhere much lower.I'm not against it - I just believe that any consumer should ask one or two good friends to watch for decline in functioning, since smokers rarely feel they're actually in a bad state.I, personally, get bad reactions from Hash, and I haven't used it for quite a time with no ill effects (-:
> I've been smoking the last 2 or 3 days and life has been much more pleasant. Am I putting my mental health at risk in anyway? What are the pluses and minuses? Any comments welcome...
>
> Jon
Posted by Mr Cushing on December 25, 2002, at 12:52:22
In reply to Re: What's so bad about Marijuana? » JonW, posted by jimmygold70 on December 25, 2002, at 11:45:41
Yeah, I'd have to add that in. You need to monitor your mood while you're smoking. If it goes too much in either direction, it's probably better not to smoke.As far as making anxiety worse.... I really couldn't care less what a Doctor says. It's helped me tremendously with my anxiety. I'm currently taking 500mg of Depakote a day that now does a really good job of keeping me stable. But before when I was cycling like crazy, if I smoked a joint it would put me in basically a level state. Like I would still be high but I could function about 10 times better while high than if I was having a panic attack or just so exhausted from depression. Hell... I went through 5 years of school, about 13 Terms or so, tons of exams, and I was an A average student. I smoked a joint before every exam that i wrote because it allowed me to think more clearly.
If I was in a depressed mood or an overly anxious mood, it would tend to put me more towards the "normal" line than take me away from it. But then again, I've seen people who smoke a joint and then become incredibly paranoid and jittery or just basically pass out... become so low that they can't keep their eyes open or their head up.
So yeah, I'm definitely not a Doctor or a Professor, but I've used it for 12 years and I'm Bi-Polar. So just judge it for yourself, if you're going too much either way quit using it. If it makes you feel good then use it "moderately". To me, I can compare it to almost the same effect as taking a small dose of Clonazepam (Klonopin).
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on December 25, 2002, at 13:59:36
In reply to What's so bad about Marijuana?, posted by JonW on December 25, 2002, at 9:04:44
> I've been smoking the last 2 or 3 days and life has been much more pleasant. Am I putting my mental health at risk in anyway? What are the pluses and minuses? Any comments welcome...
>
> JonCannabis causes a slight but definite risk of inducing schizophrenia.I attended a lecture recently given by Robin Murray, a professor of psychiatry in London University and he said that psychotic breakdowns are twice as common in south London as they were 30 years ago.At most risk are those with a family history of the disease or those who suffered lack of oxygen at birth.Other risks of cannabis are probably acceptable.
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 25, 2002, at 16:11:00
In reply to Re: What's so bad about Marijuana? » JonW, posted by jimmygold70 on December 25, 2002, at 11:45:41
The only the wrong with marijuana is that its illegal.
Now, personally I hate it, it makes my anxiety sky-rocket. Thats normal for me, coffee makes me sleepy too. However I know many many people who smoke it, to alleviate their anxiety and it works. I think it does over time have the potential to increase depression, but no more than most relaxants. Kava Kava made me very depressed.
I've had many prescribed medications that made my anxiety sky-rocket and the negative effects were far more long lasting and potentially physically damaging than smoking a little weed.
If its working I'd say.. enjoy. Besides if the pharmeceutical companies made a profit from it, I'm sure "new studies" would find the negative side effects to be minimal.
Posted by jimmygold70 on December 25, 2002, at 18:02:29
In reply to Re: What's so bad about Marijuana?, posted by Mr Cushing on December 25, 2002, at 12:52:22
Mr. Cushing - I've seen a bit what pot makes to bipolars. I'm one myself, it get's me a bit high. Once it did it too much, and I found myself at a psychiatric ER. 5mg Haldol injection did the job, but I won't try having this experience again.
I believe that the active ingredient (THC) has indirect effects on dopamine (Well, there is a lot of research in this direction - I'm not that bright... (-: )
It raises dopamine and that what makes some people paranoid. As of bipolars, we are especially sensitive to dopamine-enhancing drugs. You might find that adding a mild dopaminergic agent for parkinson's, like amantadine (Symmestrel) makes the difference. They combine it a lot here with all kinds of ADs with good results (nothing to full remission after failure with ECT!). Serotonin/Noradrenaline reuptake inhibitors down-regulate dopamine, and just adding dompamine agonists can solve many associated side effects or ineffectiveness...
Jimmy
Jimmy
Posted by linkadge on December 25, 2002, at 19:09:31
In reply to I would stick to dopamine agonists! » Mr Cushing, posted by jimmygold70 on December 25, 2002, at 18:02:29
Low dopamine can cause some sorts of anxiety.
I find sometimes (I am on Celexa) that a cup of coffee actually quells some anxiety. Celexa, I find makes me a little anxious about my performance - on tests and stuff like that - I think its low dopamine, a cup of coffee can really help some times - strange !As far as weed goes - there are many active ingrediants not just THC, I also know many who's anxiety is really helped by it, but if you do have bent towards paranoia and, this may make anxiety worse - or at least panic worse.
Very high dopamine can cause panic disorder, some think SSRIs work for panic, not by increasing serotonin, but rather by lowering dopamine.
Be your own doctor in moderation.
Linkadge
Posted by comftnumb on December 25, 2002, at 23:43:22
In reply to Re: What's so bad about Marijuana?, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on December 25, 2002, at 13:59:36
I started smoking pot in October 2001, and more heavily in November. My brother found me at school in a stupor, and he took me home to settle down. I ended up staying psychotic with plenty of delusions. I thought Larry King was talking to me on the tv, and that I could change red lights to green with my mind. Cutting out the weed didn't stop my psychosis, which lasted 6 weeks. I had to withdraw from school, I was hospitalized twice, and i was finally given the diagnosis of residual schizophrenia 6months later.
I'm not in any way saying marijuana caused my paranoid schizophrenia. But I'm almost 100% sure it triggered it. That means if it wasn't for pot I probably wouldn't have had my first psychotic episode for 2 to 5 years, maybe more. Going on antipsychotics, though, helped with a lot of issues besides just pure psychosis, so in a way I thank the marijuana for showing me I needed this treatment sooner. Currently if I smoke even the smallest amount of weed I get extremely psychotic and paranoid for the duration of the high, so I stay away from it.
For people who've been using pot a long time, I don't have a problem with your use. In fact, I think if it works for you you should keep on using it. It worked wonders for my social anxiety until I got sick.
But for young smokers, a word of caution. Know that marijuana has been shown to increase your chance of getting schizophrenia by sixfold. That means you have a 6% chance of getting schizo compared to a 1% chance normally. Is that worth it? I don't know: although both percentages are small, 6% is a significant risk.
Personally, I don't think marijuana is safe enough to be legal. I think decriminizaling a fairly small possession is a good thing. But let me not continue or Dr. Bob will redirect me!
Posted by john7219 on December 25, 2002, at 23:59:51
In reply to Re: Marijuana triggered my schizophrenia, posted by comftnumb on December 25, 2002, at 23:43:22
I hear ya man. I used to smoke pot from the age of seventeen to around twenty two, and then after noticing myself feeling very uncomfortable, paranoid feelings causing anxiety after getting high, I stopped. I then fell into depression followed by panic attacks and anxiety. I'm basically being treated for anxiety now, and every now and then I make the mistake of having a puff or two. I gotta say I might clinically be considered psychotic during this time.
Posted by ricardo on December 26, 2002, at 3:07:41
In reply to Re: Marijuana triggered my schizophrenia, posted by john7219 on December 25, 2002, at 23:59:51
Hi
Even though I think I've had depression since I was eight years old, I feel quite relieved that I've never had suicidal impulses. My depression has always been more closely associated with a desire to *live* as opposed to dying. I had never tried marijuana until some three years ago. I had a boyfriend who used it daily, so I decided that I needed to know what it felt like. It was kind of funny because I had to learn how to smoke cigarrettes first (at the age of 34!) so I could try pot. Well, I did smoke it four or five times within a week or so, since I'd been told it wouldn't "kick in" the very first time I tried. I have to say that the last time I tried it was maybe THE only time I thought about killing myself! I remember feeling like there was no hope in life. Everything felt really gloomy and helpless. That was when I made the decision of staying as far from it as I could. I do have friends who believe it does help them with anxiety and even depression. A co-worker of mine, however, has told me how she believes she doesn't progress much in the job because of her using pot on a daily basis. I can tell you how incredibly qualified she is (we're both teachers at the same school), but she doesn't have any confidence in her own abilities. She's not the only person like this that I've met! I even heard about a certain syndrome that is associated with marijuana use that is supposed to cause this lethargic and unenthusiastic attitude towards life. Anyway, that's my personal experience with marijuana.
Good luck!
Ricardo
Posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 5:55:12
In reply to Re: Marijuana triggered my schizophrenia, posted by comftnumb on December 25, 2002, at 23:43:22
> But for young smokers, a word of caution. Know that marijuana has been shown to increase your chance of getting schizophrenia by sixfold. That means you have a 6% chance of getting schizo compared to a 1% chance normally. Is that worth it? I don't know: although both percentages are small, 6% is a significant risk.Are you sure this is correct? That marijuana can increase your chance of becoming schizophrenic? Or does it simply increase your chance of showing symptoms of the illness earlier than it would have otherwise?
I would imagine that just about any drug--or food, for that matter--can trigger something latent within you. But as for marijuana causing schizophrenia--well, it's just something I'd never heard.
The first time I smoked pot was in the 7th grade. I spent much of 10th grade high, but the love affair faded. I probably smoke once a year, and that's only because I'm afraid I'll get anxious. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Anyway, just wanted to ask about that.
Cheers.
beardy : )>
Posted by rotem on December 26, 2002, at 6:35:11
In reply to I would stick to dopamine agonists! » Mr Cushing, posted by jimmygold70 on December 25, 2002, at 18:02:29
Hi
A year ago I correspond with you about SSRI and sexual dysfunction.
I haven't founf a solution yet. I am really desperate.
Can you recommend me pdoc that specializing in psychopharmacologic besides Prof Avi Weizman?
I would like to experience with dopamine agonists.I'll be glad if you can e-mail with me. my e-mail is: netaor@hotamil.co.il. Or talk with me on the phone
thanks
neta
Posted by ubergenius on December 26, 2002, at 9:28:21
In reply to Re: Marijuana triggered my schizophrenia, posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 5:55:12
Marijuana can influence the onset of several major mental illnesses including manic depression and schizophrenia.
UG
Posted by AnneL on December 26, 2002, at 9:50:40
In reply to Re: Marijuana triggered my schizophrenia, posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 5:55:12
Beardy,
If I had more time (I'am late for work), I would do the research for you. Although I do not have the exact statistics available to me at this very moment, at least two recent scientific journals came out with this study that statistically linked marijuana smoking (they did not quantify how much MJ was smoked) linked to triggering SZ. Do a Google or Medscape search and you will find the journal articles explaining the "trigger" effect with MJ usage for those who would eventually get SZ irrespective of MJ usage or not.
If one is going to get SZ, MJ will cause it to surface earlier in teens/young adults. SZ is a very disabling, devastating disease for both the patient and family. God forbid, SZ is not in the picture for my two teen daughters, but who knows? I think both patient and family would prefer as much time on this earth illness-free. Since mental illness/past drug use runs in our family for both my husband and myself, our teens are at a higher risk for eventually developing a mental illness. As parents who both have depression and one parent who also has had the privelege of sobriety, our message to our teens is that they are at higher risk and therefore to use chemicals is "russian roulette". We keep the message alive
and keep our communication open about our own illnesses and past drug use. After all is said and done, who knows what will happen? But the responsibility lies on the parent for informing their children without the use of "scare tactics" which never work anyway. Anne :)
Posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 10:24:48
In reply to Re: Marijuana triggered my schizophrenia » BeardedLady, posted by ubergenius on December 26, 2002, at 9:28:21
> Marijuana can INFLUENCE the ONSET of several major mental illnesses including manic depression and schizophrenia.
[caps my emphasis]
I really just wanted a clarification. You are still not saying it CAUSES these illnesses, correct? You are saying that it can have something to do with the start of something that will eventually start in you at a later date, without the help of marijuana. Is that correct? (I'm not trying to be difficult, really.)
Anne, this is for you, too. I think you used the word "trigger." (Sorry; I can't pull up your post without losing this one!)
I understand how smoking pot every day can take away one's ambition and speed and vigor and zest for life. That certainly sounds like depression, but, in this case, it's an expected side-effect of constant drug use, don't you think?
Who would be expected to handle life cheerfully and gracefully if he's spent most of his time high?
And then there's that chicken-egg thing. Did he use drugs because he was depressed and trying to self-medicate? Or did the constant drug use cause him to remain depressed once he was off the drugs for a long time?
Just wondering out loud, really. I know some folks who have smoked pot their whole lives. Some of them are inventors and artists and teachers with a great deal of drive and ambition. It's hard to say what causes what without isolating everything else--chemical, biological, environmental, situational, and dietary--about the person.
Okay, I'll stop now. Time to shut up, beardy.
beardy : )>
Posted by comftnumb on December 26, 2002, at 11:49:57
In reply to semantics: triggers v. causes--anne and » ubergenius, posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 10:24:48
http://www.healthscout.com/static/news/510418.html
http://www.xpresssites.com/buffalo/buffalo/xpspecialsections/healthandwellness/story_318702.asp
Summary:
Smoking pot increases the risk of the psychiatric disorder by about 30 percent (1st article, Swedish study). There is genetic evidence that marijuana use can result in schizophrenia or a significantly increased risk of schizophrenia (2nd article, Japanese Study). Cannabis used before age 18 raises the risk of schizophrenia six-fold (2nd article, Swedish Study).
Posted by dreamerz on December 26, 2002, at 12:15:55
In reply to semantics: triggers v. causes--anne and » ubergenius, posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 10:24:48
If I smoke a spliff (haven't done for years) I have a serious psychotic adventure..a friend who is schitzophrenic (sp?)had smoked for a long time--said it helped made things more real as she takes anti-psychotics --she has stopped smoking had a bad paranioa episode .
Don't think it causes it , just brings it more to the surface for some who have predisposition to mental illness
Posted by BeardedLady on December 26, 2002, at 12:58:29
In reply to Beardedlady, 2 marijuana/schizo links for you, posted by comftnumb on December 26, 2002, at 11:49:57
Posted by Mr Cushing on December 26, 2002, at 13:04:40
In reply to Re: What's so bad about Marijuana? » Mr Cushing, posted by JonW on December 25, 2002, at 11:05:17
I don't know... I smoke maybe 3 out of the 7 days of the week. I never usually go for anymore than 3 consecutive days in a row smoking weed or hash. I almost always try to give my body 2 days off after those 3 days too to see if anything gets thrown off. In the past 5 months of doing this, I feel no different on the days of not-smoking. So it's obviously not throwing anything off inside of me. I personally feel the most healthy, physically, emotionally, and mentally than I have in my life.At a guess, I'd say I smoke at most about 4-7 grams a week. Sometimes just 2-4 though. Depends on what's going on that week. In the part of Canada that I live in, marijuana is a very social drug.
Posted by Mr Cushing on December 26, 2002, at 13:15:37
In reply to What's so bad about Marijuana?, posted by JonW on December 25, 2002, at 9:04:44
See, just about everybody has different reactions to it. I have a friend that is suffering from some sort of psychosis (hears voices from the TV and radio) and if he smokes a spliff, watch out... Then I've seen people who have really bad panic attacks when they smoke weed. Everything starts moving too quickly for them, they start talking too fast, thoughts race through their heads, they start to get very paranoid, etc. Then I have other friends who smoke weed and will just lie there on the couch not moving to even shower or change, just every once in a while getting up to smoke another joint.For me, it makes everything more level. It always has. I've never had any bad side effects, going either too up or too down, from smoking weed. Plus, I absolutely love it. One of the most relaxing things for me to do is to sit down with a bag of stinky sticky weed and roll up a joint and smoke it.
I've asked both my PDoc and my MD about it and they've said that they themselves have never smoked weed so they couldn't say whether, personally, they'd be for it or against it. Neither have said anything about potentially drastic side effects. In fact, my MD (who is new here from Ireland) said that there's a ton of studies out there now on weed, about 50% for and 50% against. So I should just be my own doctor. If I find it causing problems with me, then stop smoking it.
That would by my advice to you also. It all depends on your body's chemistry. If it's screwing things up for you more than levelling things out, then stop smoking.
Posted by jimmygold70 on December 26, 2002, at 13:25:57
In reply to to jimmygold70, posted by rotem on December 26, 2002, at 6:35:11
Hi Rotem!
Well, I in the academics, and knowledge about psychopharmacology is poor in Israel. Weizman is not bad, and he does use dopamine agonists.
As for the problem itself - I am facing this too. A recent review (J Clin Psych, Feb 2002, S1) states that all ADs are likely to cause sexual dysfunction, BUT:
1) Serzonil does that far less often
2) Zyban (not in the health basket, 700NIS a month I guess) is even likely to improve sex drive.All the "shtikim" of adding dopamine agonists, Remeron, Sorbon, Tesolpamed Forte (yohimbine), Viagra and the like are UNLIKELY to help.
Also, sexual dysfunction is a symptom of depression. Even when the mood improves and anxiety goes away, sexual dysfunction sometimes stays.
Though, I really see Serzonil/Zyban as good options for you. Especially Zyban.
You might also have endocrine problems. How old are you ? Did you measure sex hormones in your blood ? Any disorders with Estradiol (E2), Progesterone and especially low Free/Bioavailable Testsoterone ruins sex drive.
I still prefer to chat on this forum...
Jimmy
> Hi
> A year ago I correspond with you about SSRI and sexual dysfunction.
> I haven't founf a solution yet. I am really desperate.
> Can you recommend me pdoc that specializing in psychopharmacologic besides Prof Avi Weizman?
> I would like to experience with dopamine agonists.
>
> I'll be glad if you can e-mail with me. my e-mail is: netaor@hotamil.co.il. Or talk with me on the phone
>
> thanks
> neta
>
>
Posted by rotem on December 26, 2002, at 13:56:17
In reply to Re: to jimmygold70 » rotem, posted by jimmygold70 on December 26, 2002, at 13:25:57
Thanks for your answer
My sexual dysfunction in my case is not a symptom of depression.
I didn’t take any antidepressants for 6 months and I had good sex. Unfortunately the depression came back. Still I had good sex, but very suffered mentally, so I had to go back to prozac.
I am 32 female and my sex hormones are all ok.
I have a depression that is mixed with restlessness agitation and sort of anxiety so I am afraid to take zyban cause when I tried adronex it was awful and weizmna said I am not suit to things that increase the noradrenalin.
I tried serzonil and it was awful.I don’t like weizman cause he sits with me 20 minutes and take 700Nis
Can you recommend me someone good as Weizman in the knowledge in psychopharmacology but who sits more time and more devoting himself?
I want someone who will escort me while I am trying dopmine agonists because I am afraid they will aggravate my reslessness or make me confuse.Alse I would like to ask what is your opinion about ssri deplete dopamine? Wiezman say ssri don’t deplete dopmine.
Posted by john7219 on December 26, 2002, at 14:50:34
In reply to Re: What's so bad about Marijuana? » JonW, posted by Mr Cushing on December 26, 2002, at 13:04:40
So you live in Vancouver, eh?
Posted by jimmygold70 on December 26, 2002, at 17:33:37
In reply to Re: to jimmygold70, posted by rotem on December 26, 2002, at 13:56:17
> Thanks for your answer
> My sexual dysfunction in my case is not a symptom of depression.
> I didn’t take any antidepressants for 6 months and I had good sex. Unfortunately the depression came back. Still I had good sex, but very suffered mentally, so I had to go back to prozac.
> I am 32 female and my sex hormones are all ok.
> I have a depression that is mixed with restlessness agitation and sort of anxiety so I am afraid to take zyban cause when I tried adronex it was awful and weizmna said I am not suit to things that increase the noradrenalin.I tried Edronax, it was worse than anything I could imagine. Zyban is good. I had that for about a year with no side effects. It's worth a try. Edronax is aweul for itself, it's not Noradrenaline per se. It effects peripheral noradrenergic receptors and that does so many side effects...
> I tried serzonil and it was awful.
Ye I did try it for some time and it was. I'm now trying it again at a higher dose and it seems better.
> I don’t like weizman cause he sits with me 20 minutes and take 700NisThat's a well known problem with him. He is the most knwoledgable I know. We enjoy having long psychopharmacology talks and the guy remembers all top journal citations 2 years back. I consider myself good at that but he overtakes me (-:
> Can you recommend me someone good as Weizman in the knowledge in psychopharmacology but who sits more time and more devoting himself?
I think Dr. Shaul Schreiber from Ichilov (now the psychiatric department manager) is OK. I talked to him once or twice, he's nice and seems to know quite a bit.
> I want someone who will escort me while I am trying dopmine agonists because I am afraid they will aggravate my reslessness or make me confuse.
I guess so. Try Zyban first (family physician, you know) before wasting money on anyone else... Don't touch them until you've tried Zyban for 3 months or so. You have nothing to worry. It is VERY well tolerated.
> Alse I would like to ask what is your opinion about ssri deplete dopamine? Wiezman say ssri don’t deplete dopmine.
I guess he is right, but that doesn't suggest that SSRIs don't cause some numbing which comes from stimulating 5-HT2 receptors which in turn down regulates some dopamine receptors at the same areas of the brain. The brain is more complicated than "increases dopamine, depletes dopamine"... It depends where, at what receptors and to what extent (-:
Report back anyway, I'm eager to hear...
Jimmy
Posted by Dave1 on December 26, 2002, at 20:30:25
In reply to Re: What's so bad about Marijuana?, posted by Mr Cushing on December 25, 2002, at 10:54:41
I get really paranoid when I've tried it That's good enough reason for me not to do it. I think this is a common occurence in patients with high anxiety.
BYE,
Dave
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