![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 45. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cybercafe on August 4, 2002, at 19:44:58
Effexor resolved maybe 15% of my anxiety and 40% of my depression ... and while Parnate (low dose -- 30mg) got rid of much of my anxiety, then made socializing much more fascinating and fun, it seemed to do little for the time i spent alone... (really quite unbearable)... but as i began to feel incredably motivated to talk to everyone i met (at bus stops, bus drivers, you name it) i found that the time i spent alone i would think about ... future activities... with hopeSo what are your experiences? Do "normal" people, or recovered people, find being broke and doing nothing but watching TV day in and day out for weeks on end to be not just hard to deal with -- but almost unbearable?
Posted by Ritch on August 4, 2002, at 21:02:18
In reply to How Parnate saved my butt, posted by cybercafe on August 4, 2002, at 19:44:58
>
> Effexor resolved maybe 15% of my anxiety and 40% of my depression ... and while Parnate (low dose -- 30mg) got rid of much of my anxiety, then made socializing much more fascinating and fun, it seemed to do little for the time i spent alone... (really quite unbearable)... but as i began to feel incredably motivated to talk to everyone i met (at bus stops, bus drivers, you name it) i found that the time i spent alone i would think about ... future activities... with hope
>
> So what are your experiences? Do "normal" people, or recovered people, find being broke and doing nothing but watching TV day in and day out for weeks on end to be not just hard to deal with -- but almost unbearable?Cyber,
You have addressed an issue about social anxiety that I discussed early on with a therapist over 20 years ago. There are "approach" and "avoid" issues with SA. If you solve avoidance issues (medications or CBT), you still have approach (interest) issues to deal with. The bottom line is--if you lack the motivation and interest to interact with other new folks-all of the therapy/meds to stop avoidance behaviors are lost if the motivational issues aren't addressed. That is where the MAOI's and stimulants have a role in treatment, IMO.
Mitch
Posted by cybercafe on August 5, 2002, at 2:24:54
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt » cybercafe, posted by Ritch on August 4, 2002, at 21:02:18
>you solve avoidance issues (medications or CBT), you still have approach (interest) issues to deal with. The bottom line is--if you lack the motivation and interest to interact with other new folks-all of the therapy/meds to stop avoidance behaviors are lost if the motivational issues aren't addressed. That is where the MAOI's and stimulants have a role in treatment, IMO.
that makes good sense to me -- though some might say that if you are lacking the motivation and interest you are experiencing depression? .... though to begin with i couldn't even imagine what it would be like to avoid contact with people and not be depressed!
.... one thing that is a little harder to get rid of is agoraphobia -- like sitting still for a 3+ hour car ride .... any idea what the best med is for this?
.. i also find it difficult to walk up to a group of 10 girls...
Posted by missliz on August 5, 2002, at 2:48:30
In reply to How Parnate saved my butt, posted by cybercafe on August 4, 2002, at 19:44:58
Yes, Parnate rocks! And yes, healthy people find daytime TV just gruesome. I put my life back together with MAOIs too, but I had to go out and get it. Life doesn't come over and drag you away from Oprah. You need a plan.
You sound lonely, and you need to get out. Structured activity would be best; It's hard to go back into the world after you've been sick and isolated. I don't know what options there are where you live, but taking a course at a community college can be good- If all you do is relearn how to show up every day on time it's a good start. I did this and wound up with a batchelors degree. Or volunteer work- structured and easy to get, and free. No tedious financial aid forms. I'm sure there are other possibilities. Those are the two I used.
I don't know how long you've been on the Parnate, but it takes a couple of months to work completely. You have to get used to the diet, settle down the insomnia, and grapple with the big question; Are you ready to be well? It can take some getting used to. Start thinking about what you'd like to do more than watch TV. Make some inquiries. When you're ready MAOIs have this way of just letting you move on.
Something that's helping me now, as I'm pretty housebound with injuries, is a library card. Reading does so much more for your head and your loneliness than TV. Since it demands total engagement you don't notice the other stuff as much. And you're going to need something to talk to people about... ;)Miss Liz
Another thing that helps, try to take a nice walk most days. Get out, look around,get a little exercise. It's another way to re-engage the world. And get away from the TV.
Posted by LLL on August 5, 2002, at 9:03:50
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt, posted by cybercafe on August 5, 2002, at 2:24:54
I took and currently am taking Parnate for panic disorder and agoraphobia. Parnate worked wonders for that problem however, I also had a lot of CBT under my belt. I still read all my books and practice what I learned. There are many sites out there that can help you with this issue. Medication alone won't take it away, CBT and a supportive therapist, group, or on-line community will help.
I think joining a book club at your local library might be helpful, even if it might sound nerdy. Force yourself to do things you've never done before to open some doors.
Good Luck!
Posted by Ritch on August 5, 2002, at 10:06:28
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt, posted by cybercafe on August 5, 2002, at 2:24:54
> >you solve avoidance issues (medications or CBT), you still have approach (interest) issues to deal with. The bottom line is--if you lack the motivation and interest to interact with other new folks-all of the therapy/meds to stop avoidance behaviors are lost if the motivational issues aren't addressed. That is where the MAOI's and stimulants have a role in treatment, IMO.
>
> that makes good sense to me -- though some might say that if you are lacking the motivation and interest you are experiencing depression? .... though to begin with i couldn't even imagine what it would be like to avoid contact with people and not be depressed!
>
> .... one thing that is a little harder to get rid of is agoraphobia -- like sitting still for a 3+ hour car ride .... any idea what the best med is for this?
>
> .. i also find it difficult to walk up to a group of 10 girls...
>
Cyber,You have a good point about the depression aspect of SA. I have had recurring major (and not so major) depressions for 25 years now (sometimes 4 or more a year). There definitely is a correlation to motivation/interest and *lack* of depression! I think I just get used to being depressed and it probably isn't really being treated because of my med-induced hypomanias. When I am hypomanic I can talk to dead people (figuratively..of course)! Agoraphobia is something that tends to develop and be reinforced at the tail end of my depressions, then I will flip back into hypomania, come out of my shell, unlearn all of the agoraphobic behaviours, just about the time I get depressed again. Bummer. Meds that historically work well for agoraphobia tend to be sedative tricyclics like amitripytline. Probably Remeron would do well for that. MAOI's are good for phobias generally, but probably work best for "specific" phobias. Bottom line--like you say--if you are depressed you aren't going to be interested in socializing!
Mitch
Posted by LLL on August 5, 2002, at 10:32:53
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt » cybercafe, posted by Ritch on August 5, 2002, at 10:06:28
Actually the MAOI's although not used frequently, mostly due to the ignorance and inexperience of physicians, are the best at treating agoraphobia and without worsening the symptoms of anxiety as do most of the other AD's out there.
Posted by jaby on August 5, 2002, at 11:39:52
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt » Ritch, posted by LLL on August 5, 2002, at 10:32:53
The riding in a car or bus thing is tough. It's usually just the anticipation and the first 20 minutes that are the worst for me. I just flew from LA to Chicago and that was my experience.
As far as walking up to a group of 10 girls, there's something wrong with you if yu DON'T have a problem with that. I was successful athlete during high school, fraternity member in college, have had many girlfriends, etc., but there's no way I will ever have the courage to walk up to 10 girls in a bar (let alone one). Some socila situations are just impossible as far as I'm concerned. I always think of the guys that can do things like that as total cheese balls anyways, so take your pick.
I do have a question...Do you drink at all on parnate and if so, what? Just curious.
Posted by hildi on August 5, 2002, at 20:26:09
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt, posted by missliz on August 5, 2002, at 2:48:30
Posted by hildi on August 5, 2002, at 20:28:07
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt » cybercafe, posted by LLL on August 5, 2002, at 9:03:50
Posted by hildi on August 5, 2002, at 20:36:41
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt » cybercafe, posted by Ritch on August 5, 2002, at 10:06:28
> > >you solve avoidance issues (medications or CBT), you still have approach (interest) issues to deal with. The bottom line is--if you lack the motivation and interest to interact with other new folks-all of the therapy/meds to stop avoidance behaviors are lost if the motivational issues aren't addressed. That is where the MAOI's and stimulants have a role in treatment, IMO.
> >
> > that makes good sense to me -- though some might say that if you are lacking the motivation and interest you are experiencing depression? .... though to begin with i couldn't even imagine what it would be like to avoid contact with people and not be depressed!
> >
> > .... one thing that is a little harder to get rid of is agoraphobia -- like sitting still for a 3+ hour car ride .... any idea what the best med is for this?
> >
> > .. i also find it difficult to walk up to a group of 10 girls...
> >
>
>
> Cyber,
>
> You have a good point about the depression aspect of SA. I have had recurring major (and not so major) depressions for 25 years now (sometimes 4 or more a year). There definitely is a correlation to motivation/interest and *lack* of depression! I think I just get used to being depressed and it probably isn't really being treated because of my med-induced hypomanias. When I am hypomanic I can talk to dead people (figuratively..of course)! Agoraphobia is something that tends to develop and be reinforced at the tail end of my depressions, then I will flip back into hypomania, come out of my shell, unlearn all of the agoraphobic behaviours, just about the time I get depressed again. Bummer. Meds that historically work well for agoraphobia tend to be sedative tricyclics like amitripytline. Probably Remeron would do well for that. MAOI's are good for phobias generally, but probably work best for "specific" phobias. Bottom line--like you say--if you are depressed you aren't going to be interested in socializing!
>
> MitchHi guys. Yeah- this is a good thread, I feel. I really have avoidance issues. I shut myself off and isolate. I really need to get out there, but I haven't mentally and physically felt up to it. I am still playing around, trying to find a med for me that works (and my dr. is being a jerk- he puts me on things that makes me sick and tells me to grin and bear it) and I tell myself that when I feel better I will get out there. . .
But theres more to it. You guys hit it when you said 'you need to WANT to be well" and you need to get OUT there". I am afraid to get out there. My problems are probably psychological as well as biological.
I really don't like people that much. I don't know if the right meds will ever change that part of me. I really am a loner-but I don't want to be.
I like some of the suggestions - I have to force myself to start making steps . . .
Posted by Ritch on August 6, 2002, at 0:48:21
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt, posted by hildi on August 5, 2002, at 20:36:41
> > > >you solve avoidance issues (medications or CBT), you still have approach (interest) issues to deal with. The bottom line is--if you lack the motivation and interest to interact with other new folks-all of the therapy/meds to stop avoidance behaviors are lost if the motivational issues aren't addressed. That is where the MAOI's and stimulants have a role in treatment, IMO.
> > >
> > > that makes good sense to me -- though some might say that if you are lacking the motivation and interest you are experiencing depression? .... though to begin with i couldn't even imagine what it would be like to avoid contact with people and not be depressed!
> > >
> > > .... one thing that is a little harder to get rid of is agoraphobia -- like sitting still for a 3+ hour car ride .... any idea what the best med is for this?
> > >
> > > .. i also find it difficult to walk up to a group of 10 girls...
> > >
> >
> >
> > Cyber,
> >
> > You have a good point about the depression aspect of SA. I have had recurring major (and not so major) depressions for 25 years now (sometimes 4 or more a year). There definitely is a correlation to motivation/interest and *lack* of depression! I think I just get used to being depressed and it probably isn't really being treated because of my med-induced hypomanias. When I am hypomanic I can talk to dead people (figuratively..of course)! Agoraphobia is something that tends to develop and be reinforced at the tail end of my depressions, then I will flip back into hypomania, come out of my shell, unlearn all of the agoraphobic behaviours, just about the time I get depressed again. Bummer. Meds that historically work well for agoraphobia tend to be sedative tricyclics like amitripytline. Probably Remeron would do well for that. MAOI's are good for phobias generally, but probably work best for "specific" phobias. Bottom line--like you say--if you are depressed you aren't going to be interested in socializing!
> >
> > Mitch
>
> Hi guys. Yeah- this is a good thread, I feel. I really have avoidance issues. I shut myself off and isolate. I really need to get out there, but I haven't mentally and physically felt up to it. I am still playing around, trying to find a med for me that works (and my dr. is being a jerk- he puts me on things that makes me sick and tells me to grin and bear it) and I tell myself that when I feel better I will get out there. . .
> But theres more to it. You guys hit it when you said 'you need to WANT to be well" and you need to get OUT there". I am afraid to get out there. My problems are probably psychological as well as biological.
> I really don't like people that much. I don't know if the right meds will ever change that part of me. I really am a loner-but I don't want to be.
> I like some of the suggestions - I have to force myself to start making steps . . .
Hildi,I was thinking about this thread later today and wanted to add to it a little more. I don't want to trash SSRI meds that badly.. but.. there is an experience that I have noticed with them. There are times where you are forced to be around folks that you "normally" wouldn't get near for any amount of money! ... and you can just stand there and BS and smile away, but when they disperse, you just experience this "WHEW!", glad they left kind of feeling. And it seems all messed up-you feel guilty for not truly liking those people. But, OTOH, who says you HAVE TO? So is the REAL problem feeling guilty or not? Obviously, if it is OK to feel "anti-social", then you are wasting your time persecuting yourself for being honest with your feelings. BUT, there are *times* when everything "clicks" with just about everybody you meet and *everybody* is OK and that feels GREAT! It is like you have found a kindred soul in everybody you meet. I like that! I really wonder if a lot of social anxiety IS just untreated depression (lack of interest). Just a couple dozen thoughts,
Mitch
Posted by cybercafe on August 6, 2002, at 13:57:01
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt » cybercafe, posted by Ritch on August 5, 2002, at 10:06:28
>Remeron would do well for that. MAOI's are good for phobias generally, but probably work best for "specific" phobias. Bottom line--like you say--if you are depressed you aren't going to be interested in socializing!
i think you and lisa both have some good ideas...
you see there is active social phobia like talking to people that antidepressants and hypomania and narcissism definately solve!
but then there is passive (agitated?) agoraphobia.. like having to sit still for 2 or 3 hours in a movie theatre, for a test, in a car... and hypomania and desire to socialize doesn't really motivate me to conquer these (it probably makes my agitation more energetic)
advice?
Posted by cybercafe on August 6, 2002, at 14:00:42
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my buttcyber, posted by jaby on August 5, 2002, at 11:39:52
> The riding in a car or bus thing is tough. It's usually just the anticipation and the first 20 minutes that are the worst for me. I just flew from LA to Chicago and that was my experience.
... you mean i'm not the only one with this problem?
> As far as walking up to a group of 10 girls, there's something wrong with you if yu DON'T have a problem with that. I was successful athlete
... you get used to it with time... like if you are talking to women 3 or 4 times a week... but i find it i take even one week off, i'm back to being mr. social phobic
> I do have a question...Do you drink at all on parnate and if so, what? Just curious.
nope sorry i don't drink... partially because i don't want a hypertensive crisis, but mainly because it stops the medication from being metabolizes for a few days and i want all the antidepressant effect i can get
Posted by cybercafe on August 6, 2002, at 14:03:12
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt, posted by hildi on August 5, 2002, at 20:36:41
> I really don't like people that much. I don't know if the right meds will ever change that part of me. I really am a loner-but I don't want to be.
this is really fascinating to me... i actually talked to someone in The Real World (tm) who was like this ...
how is it that you can not like people but not want to be alone? ... i mean if you don't want to be alone, aren't you more happier when you are around people and that loneliness disappears?
Posted by LLL on August 6, 2002, at 14:04:18
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt, posted by cybercafe on August 6, 2002, at 13:57:01
Right now I'd be thrilled if I could ride in a car for 20 minutes let alone worry about going for 3 hours. The only way I can crawl back out of this quicksand called Agoraphoba is with my med's (not yet on a therapeutic dose) and CBT. CBT is extremely helpful. I suggest you do an internet search, do some research and buy a couple of self help books addressing agoraphobia (usually in combination with panic.) Also, force yourself to do, do, do, regardless of how you feel! Changing your thinking changes your feelings and behavior, but changing your behavior can also change your feelings and thoughts!
Posted by hildi on August 6, 2002, at 19:38:48
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt » hildi, posted by Ritch on August 6, 2002, at 0:48:21
Yeah Mitch, I get what your saying-there are many times (while I am taking my SSRI's) that I just BS my way through entire social engagements, and then, on my way home I'll be exhausted from all my 'play acting' and my mouth is sore from grinning too much.
I feel like such a fake- this is with people that I like, sometimes. Then I feel guilty from not being 'real' with them. . . but how could I be real. If I was real I would be a big downer, not laughing or joking with everyone.
It some seem that alot of this could be depression. It takes so much effort to put on this big act that "hey , I'm OK, I am this fun gal". I get totally exausted by social events for this reason- I feel I have to perform.However, there are other times, though, when I really do seem to click with everyone I meet. It is almost effortless and I think I feel almost normal- and am actually having fun. These occasions are usually those kind where I don't spend a lot of time with any one person. I think that takes a lot of pressure off of me, too.
I get scared if I think someone is actually going to be able to see how scared and depressed I really am. I don't want people to know- that is too humiliating and would make me way to vulnerable.
You know, sometimes my SSRI's make me not "give a shit". . .I don't care about being alone sometimes. . .I think they take away my cares too much where i don't feel many things, including the need to inateract with other people. I don't like this part. I want to feel, but now get blown away. What can I take that will allow that?
Hildi
Posted by LLL on August 6, 2002, at 21:41:34
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt » Ritch, posted by hildi on August 6, 2002, at 19:38:48
Cybercafe - as someone who does not suffer from depression or social anxiety disorder, and am fine in social situations, (as long as I can get there!) I can tell you that the rest of the so-called "normals" out there find socializing to be somewhat of a chore as well. I also have to force myself at times to socialize, it doesn't come naturally for me or most people. If you look around, the ones who appear to be most comfortable are those who are tanked. Since I don't drink, either on or off MAOI's, I can see there's a big difference in social situations for those who do drink and those who don't. Those who drink are medicating themselves because they too are anxious, or awkward, or self conscious or .... When I'm with people I know it's easier, but it still takes effort. Believe me, it's hard for EVERYONE and you need to give yourself more credit. People who tell you they're totally comfortable meeting and talking and socializing with others are either a)lying b)buzzed on alcohol or drugs during the process or c)so slick they're not likeable! Go easy on yourself, and keep on keeping on!
Good Luck!
Posted by Ritch on August 7, 2002, at 0:19:53
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt, posted by cybercafe on August 6, 2002, at 13:57:01
> >Remeron would do well for that. MAOI's are good for phobias generally, but probably work best for "specific" phobias. Bottom line--like you say--if you are depressed you aren't going to be interested in socializing!
>
> i think you and lisa both have some good ideas...
>
> you see there is active social phobia like talking to people that antidepressants and hypomania and narcissism definately solve!
>
> but then there is passive (agitated?) agoraphobia.. like having to sit still for 2 or 3 hours in a movie theatre, for a test, in a car... and hypomania and desire to socialize doesn't really motivate me to conquer these (it probably makes my agitation more energetic)
>
> advice?
>Cyber,
That is when I tend to have *panic* attacks. Closed in rooms where I have to sit still and listen-be a captive audience in a group of strangers. UGH. College was hell, especially big lecture halls, yuck! I liked "hands-on" stuff like design classes where you have to physically move around some and work on projects. The worst possible thing was listening to a droning lecture class after class. I notice that if I dont' *feel* restless it isn't as bad. Advice-heck I don't know. I was on Prozac and Lithium and I still had panic atacks every semester-sometimes several in one class three times a week! My pdoc at that time was anti-benzo and wouldn't write for them. I actually made it through all that crap-jeez it is hard to believe.
Mitch
Posted by Ritch on August 7, 2002, at 0:38:01
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt » Ritch, posted by hildi on August 6, 2002, at 19:38:48
> Yeah Mitch, I get what your saying-there are many times (while I am taking my SSRI's) that I just BS my way through entire social engagements, and then, on my way home I'll be exhausted from all my 'play acting' and my mouth is sore from grinning too much.
> I feel like such a fake- this is with people that I like, sometimes. Then I feel guilty from not being 'real' with them. . . but how could I be real. If I was real I would be a big downer, not laughing or joking with everyone.
> It some seem that alot of this could be depression. It takes so much effort to put on this big act that "hey , I'm OK, I am this fun gal". I get totally exausted by social events for this reason- I feel I have to perform.
>
> However, there are other times, though, when I really do seem to click with everyone I meet. It is almost effortless and I think I feel almost normal- and am actually having fun. These occasions are usually those kind where I don't spend a lot of time with any one person. I think that takes a lot of pressure off of me, too.
>
> I get scared if I think someone is actually going to be able to see how scared and depressed I really am. I don't want people to know- that is too humiliating and would make me way to vulnerable.
> You know, sometimes my SSRI's make me not "give a shit". . .I don't care about being alone sometimes. . .I think they take away my cares too much where i don't feel many things, including the need to inateract with other people. I don't like this part. I want to feel, but now get blown away. What can I take that will allow that?
> Hildi
Hildi,Thanks for replying. I know exactly what you mean! I am more convinced than ever that it is all bio-chemically based. When I get my bipolar major depressions (when they are poorly treated), the main symptoms are lack of interest in socializing and this tremendous BOREDOM and TIREDNESS with everything (not just social stuff). It is the "interest in everyday activities" element of the depression that is foremost. The next biggest elements that are prominent is "ability to concentrate" and "slowed thoughts" and "fatigue". I have mentioned this here before, but I think that Social Anxiety is deeply connected with that "limbic" or "depressive" ADD that you hear about. That is where SSRI's fail to some degree IMO. They are good at giving you a "thicker skin", but wouldn't it be superior to feel drawn out of your own shell-by being truly *interested* in what is going on out there (wanting to check it out), instead of just having a THICKER SHELL? That is where SSRI's fall short-motivation and interest. Motivation and interest are often attributed to dopaminergic meds. I have tried stimulants and they have helped so-so, but they tend to worsen panic (in my situation anyhow), despite their ability to improve attention and alleviate depression, etc. That is probably why the MAOI's have the overall superior edge for social phobia. They can reduce panic AND increase dopaminergic transmission which tends to promote motivationi and interest. Just a few ideas here. I don't know if my current pdoc will every write for the things. I am half-ass solving this problem with a low-dose combo of Effexor and Wellbutrin right now. However, I think that the MAOI's might be the best meds. You might want to talk to your doc about them anyhow,
good luck,
Mitch
Posted by cybercafe on August 7, 2002, at 1:34:33
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt » cybercafe, posted by Ritch on August 7, 2002, at 0:19:53
> That is when I tend to have *panic* attacks. Closed in rooms where I have to sit still and listen-be a captive audience in a group of strangers. UGH. College was hell, especially big lecture halls, yuck! I liked "hands-on" stuff like design classes where you have to physically move around some and work on projects. The worst possible thing was listening to a droning lecture class after class. I notice that if I dont' *feel* restless it isn't as bad. Advice-heck I don't know. I was on Prozac and Lithium and I still had panic atacks every semester-sometimes several in one class three times a week! My pdoc at that time was anti
i would often get attacks of terror... but i am told that panic attacks are when you think you are dieing/having a heart attack? so because i was aware that what was going on was anxiety this would mean they are not panic attacks, yes? no?
thanks for the reply :)
Posted by cybercafe on August 7, 2002, at 1:38:05
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt » hildi, posted by Ritch on August 7, 2002, at 0:38:01
>foremost. The next biggest elements that are prominent is "ability to concentrate" and "slowed thoughts" and "fatigue". I have mentioned this
Hey Mitch ... question... my doc says that after your depression remits, it takes 3 to 5 months for you to get your cognitive function back... have you found this to be the case?
Posted by Ritch on August 7, 2002, at 9:53:02
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt, posted by cybercafe on August 7, 2002, at 1:38:05
>i would often get attacks of terror... but i am told that panic attacks are when you think you are dieing/having a heart attack? so because i was aware that what was going on was anxiety this would mean they are not panic attacks, yes? no?
They tend to come on very rapidly. My experience is a sudden feeling of depersonalization and unreality followed immediately by flushed skin with racing heartbeat (often sweating hands, too). I just bite my lip, pinch my arm and ride it out. They usually last about 20-30 seconds or so. The trouble is when the damn things fade and then come back and repeat over and over. I think I would be oddly *relieved* if it *were* a heart attack instead.
> >foremost. The next biggest elements that are prominent is "ability to concentrate" and "slowed thoughts" and "fatigue". I have mentioned this
>
> Hey Mitch ... question... my doc says that after your depression remits, it takes 3 to 5 months for you to get your cognitive function back... have you found this to be the case?There's no way I can really find out, because my moods cycle so rapidly. :)
Mitch
Posted by LLL on August 7, 2002, at 10:59:46
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt, posted by cybercafe on August 7, 2002, at 1:34:33
Panic attacks are just as you described. Some people think they are going to die, others are having heart attacks, others feel like they're going crazy etc. It's all panic attack. You're thinking before any of this takes place, like "oh my God, what if I had one now and couldn't leave" and then of course you become more anxious and think more anxious thoughts until you've spun yourself up to panic. This takes only seconds to do. Try to become aware of your anxious thoughts.
Once you do you can begin to see how you trigger them and can begin to "let these thoughts go". When you're not aware of how your thinking precipitates the panic it seems as if the panic or "terror" just comes out of the blue. The truth is there are automatic, almost habitual, irrational thoughts that come before these symptoms. Again, I highly recommend you buy some self help books on panic disorder so you can begin some CBT.
Posted by hildi on August 7, 2002, at 16:47:08
In reply to Re: How Parnate saved my butt » hildi, posted by Ritch on August 7, 2002, at 0:38:01
> > Yeah Mitch, I get what your saying-there are many times (while I am taking my SSRI's) that I just BS my way through entire social engagements, and then, on my way home I'll be exhausted from all my 'play acting' and my mouth is sore from grinning too much.
> > I feel like such a fake- this is with people that I like, sometimes. Then I feel guilty from not being 'real' with them. . . but how could I be real. If I was real I would be a big downer, not laughing or joking with everyone.
> > It some seem that alot of this could be depression. It takes so much effort to put on this big act that "hey , I'm OK, I am this fun gal". I get totally exausted by social events for this reason- I feel I have to perform.
> >
> > However, there are other times, though, when I really do seem to click with everyone I meet. It is almost effortless and I think I feel almost normal- and am actually having fun. These occasions are usually those kind where I don't spend a lot of time with any one person. I think that takes a lot of pressure off of me, too.
> >
> > I get scared if I think someone is actually going to be able to see how scared and depressed I really am. I don't want people to know- that is too humiliating and would make me way to vulnerable.
> > You know, sometimes my SSRI's make me not "give a shit". . .I don't care about being alone sometimes. . .I think they take away my cares too much where i don't feel many things, including the need to inateract with other people. I don't like this part. I want to feel, but now get blown away. What can I take that will allow that?
> > Hildi
>
>
> Hildi,
>
> Thanks for replying. I know exactly what you mean! I am more convinced than ever that it is all bio-chemically based. When I get my bipolar major depressions (when they are poorly treated), the main symptoms are lack of interest in socializing and this tremendous BOREDOM and TIREDNESS with everything (not just social stuff). It is the "interest in everyday activities" element of the depression that is foremost. The next biggest elements that are prominent is "ability to concentrate" and "slowed thoughts" and "fatigue". I have mentioned this here before, but I think that Social Anxiety is deeply connected with that "limbic" or "depressive" ADD that you hear about. That is where SSRI's fail to some degree IMO. They are good at giving you a "thicker skin", but wouldn't it be superior to feel drawn out of your own shell-by being truly *interested* in what is going on out there (wanting to check it out), instead of just having a THICKER SHELL? That is where SSRI's fall short-motivation and interest. Motivation and interest are often attributed to dopaminergic meds. I have tried stimulants and they have helped so-so, but they tend to worsen panic (in my situation anyhow), despite their ability to improve attention and alleviate depression, etc. That is probably why the MAOI's have the overall superior edge for social phobia. They can reduce panic AND increase dopaminergic transmission which tends to promote motivationi and interest. Just a few ideas here. I don't know if my current pdoc will every write for the things. I am half-ass solving this problem with a low-dose combo of Effexor and Wellbutrin right now. However, I think that the MAOI's might be the best meds. You might want to talk to your doc about them anyhow,
>
> good luck,
>
> Mitch
>
>
Hi Mitch. I did try to talk to my dr. about MAOI's and he wouldn't listen. he is really 'pissed' at me and not open to any of my suggestions. After going off of zoloft because of physical sick symptoms ( shakiness, nausea, fainting spells, more) and maybe hypomanic symptoms (racing thoughts, major irritability, hyper and obsessing over things and thoughts) dr. tried me on celexa and effexor. I hated both of them.
Well, now he says I'm expecting too much, too bad about feeling like shit and just deal with it. he pretty much just threw his hands up in the air and said "I give Up".
So, he gave me paxil-which I didn't want, and told me he won't even discuss anything else.
I am having extreme anxiety attacks on the paxil. I don't want to up the dose because I can't afford it, also I am experiencing a very wierd side effect from paxil CR at 12.5 mg- intense interest in sex!! All I can think about!~ Is this mania?
I am going to TRY to get the dr. to talk to me tomorrow- I am going to PLEAD with him to give me a benzo-I was really against this (because I'm an alcoholic, 9 years sober) but I have changed my thoughts on this big time. If I am going to be dependent on a med, I want it to be something that at least will help me. I am thinking, if I can do benzos for a little while while I clean my body of AD's I may then be able to try an MAOI.
The dr. even suggested benzos to me twice. He knows my situation and doesn't think it would be a problem. BUT, he is really acting wierd with me. I think I insulted his manhood or something by questioning him too much, sometimes in fromt of his collegues. This is when his attitute changed tremendously.
I might be out of luck completely now with this guy. If I cannot get some relief from this anxiety I am afraid I WILL go back to drinking. I used drinking for many years for anxiety. I cannot go it alone.
Hildi
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