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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 338 to 362 of 434. Go back in thread:
Posted by shelliR on September 22, 2001, at 21:49:47
In reply to Re: Shelli are you ok? » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on September 22, 2001, at 13:06:10
Hi Lorraine
>
> > > > > > It is so horrible to say this but I feel like I'm ready to give up. But I could not do that to my parents, and my sister has been so clear in how much I mean to her.
> Did I tell you that I am keeping a "why I live" file for tough times? It includes wonderful notes that people have sent me over the years about how much I mean to them. I keep it in my notebook with my mood chart and so forth. It helps to know that it is there and when times are tough to read it and remember all of the people who care.That's a nice idea, especially since you've been organized enough to save stuff like that.
I hope it has gotten better, Shelli. It sounds like the Oxy is helping.
Yes, the oxy is helping, but the constant need to raise the dose is alarming. And here I am picking nardil as my AD when I really have no reason to believe that it will work for me; I've retried it before since it lost it's effectiveness with no results. The wellbutrin helps with activation; I sort of see it as a booster similar to adding say, ritalin or any other stimulent. But I get no antidepressant effects from it. So I go up (hopefully this week) on the nardil, then what's next? I guess at some point my thinking was that if I was stabilized on an AD (nardil, now) then I might be more stable on the oxy--less tolerance. I feel like I've tried everything I can think of. There is something going on with the oxy and I know it's rebound depression in the morning, because never in my entire life have a woken up every single day this depressed. I think I might add a pill tonight at about 11pm and see if that stops the rebound effect. I'm curious to see if that has any effect on lowering the magnitude of the morning depression. It may be too activating, however, to sleep at night. Tonight I am feeling the depression more than I have for the past few days. It is scary to me.
> > yes, I am still seeing my therapist.
> Is she being helpful?I don't even know. I guess any ally is good right now.
> > > > Have you tried Topamax or thought of augmenting with it? It is reputed to help with weight loss. Woman at my NDMDA meeting swore by it.
> > Yes, did a trial for five weeks (I have some anger at my last pdoc for insisting on such long trials,) and all I did was sleep; no anti-depressant effects.
> Topamax is a mood stabilizer (or anti-convulsant). I didn't think these were supposed to have anti-depressant effects, although Neurontin can for me.Mood stablizers are very often used to boost ADs; so yes, in that sense, the whole idea is for them to have anti-depressant effects. That was the case for me with lamictal, and I assume the reason you take neurotin, since neither of us are bi-polar.
>
>
> > > > I have a hard time with the term mental illness. I feel much more comfortable with the term depressed. The term mental illness puts everyone in the same category. If you say you are mentally ill, pictures come up of schizophrenia, and other psychoses.
> I sat in a Recovery, Inc. meeting one day with only 5 of us there (including the leader), two of the people were very heavily medicated (maybe with schizo-affective disorder). Anyway the meeting was fairly humorous because the leader was trying valiantly to keep the ball moving from one person to the other and keep participation up, although at least two people were not capable of truly contributing to the meeting. So she would say "Now Sally wouldn't you say that you spot [blah,blah, blah] with Lorraine?....Of course, you would".< vbg >. I have been in that situation, and yes it can be pretty funny; or irritating, depending on my mood.
Still, for me, I've been trying to come to grips with the fact that this is first and foremost an illness and that it is a chronic illness without a known cure. I feel like I have to accept that level of reality to move forward in my life.
I was thinking when I got your post this morning that I don't really understand how your depression feels. Like for me it is a huge weight in my chest, a very physical pain. And a tightness when I try to talk, or really even breathe. You said you have atypical depression so I know what the list is. You once mentioned sadness welling up behind your eyes. Is sadness a large part of it? Well maybe you could just describe it for me.
> > > >[re: support groups]Frankly, I find them unstimulating or insultingly childish.
> Did you try NDMDA? I don't find it childish. Unstimulating? Well, sometimes, but then the manics help keep the energy level up even though they take most of the focus. Shelli, you know the best way for you to get support. I'm not trying to push you one way or the other.Well, I do feel pushed, sort of like you can't help it, despite your best intentions. < g > I tell you I don't feel the need for community in that sense, and you come back with , "did you try........" It's not a big deal, it doesn't make me feel guilty or bad or anything, really. It feels sort of like it would make you feel better if I went to a group because then you would know I was getting support. (And that's very nice for you to want me to have support.)
> > > > > > So that's good that you aren't having any side effects with nardil.
> > > Well, I increased my dose to 15mg 2x day. Let's see what that does. I was dipping in the afternoon.
> > do you mean depression, or tiredness, by the term dipping?
> I meant depression. At 15 mg 2x day, I still feel the depression but I am not that far into the trial (2 weeks). I do feel better, although the hyperventilating is still an issue as are the backaches but these may resolve or I may find a way to deal with them. A benefit is that I am able to back down on my bedtime meds b/c falling asleep is not the struggle that it was on Parnate.See this is where I get mixed up about your depression. Aside from dipping in the afternoon, are you without depression in the morning and evening? When you describe your depression you use very mild terms (like dipping) and then on the other hand you say you are trying to come to terms with having an illness without a known cure, which implies severe impairment. So I get confused. Do you think my confusion is semantics? Like in the morning to you want to get out of bed? And then later in the afternoon (during your dip) do you feel like getting into bed and pulling your covers over your head. That's what I'm trying to understand.
>
>
> > > >[re hormones] I saw the new doctor regarding hormones and I finally feel like I have found someone who knows what they are doing. I got so tired of seeing ob/gyns that had waiting rooms full of pregnant women and knew nothing about hormones. This woman tested all of my hormone levels: DHEA, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, thyroid and as well as my adrenal glands. Taking this info and taking into account the history of breast in my family, they sent a prescription to a compounding pharmacy for a combination hormone mix that she will adjust according to my reaction. She also will do a new test that measures hormone levels to make sure that they are in a range that minimizes breast cancer risk. Anyway, I am pleased.I just get confused because my gyn (who I think is very smart), but yes, is also an ob, thinks that hormone tests are not very significant because they constantly fluctuate from day to day. Adjustment done on reaction is what she is big on, I think. I see her a week from Tuesday and I'll try to ask her again about getting me tested, but I think I already know what she thinks. Right now I'm taking synthetic estrogen and will probably go on natural progesterone, and then at some point I'll do more work on the right combination of synthetic and natural estrogen. Now I could probably get by with black cohosh, because it has become evident that despite the study on estrogen and depression, estrogen at the level of the study has not impacted my depression at all, and I'm not having any physical symptoms other than hot flushes. Actually I'm sweating a lot (like my face, mostly) and I don't know if that is hormonal or from wellbutrin. Also, in the southwest I was totally dry, always.
Anyway, I have been good about doing the treadmill 45minutes almost everyday, so hopefully between that and the lost of appetite on the wellbutrin, I'll at least become a thinner depressive.
Shelli
>
Posted by Lorraine on September 23, 2001, at 13:00:59
In reply to Re: Hypertensive crises, update » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on September 13, 2001, at 14:43:22
Hi, elizabeth:
Sorry for the delay. I keep thinking that I have replied to posts that I haven't. I think I have a mental illness:-)
> > > > I don't even *get* the difference between residual effects and an unresolved hypertensive crisis. Really.
> > >
> > Ø The difference would be whether your blood pressure is still high! (People whose BP runs low seem to have worse symptoms than those with higher baseline BPs.)Thank-you. This is helpful and pretty much what I thought.
> > So that crick in my neck was probably the result of residual the vascular contraction in that area.
>
> I don't know exactly what causes the particular symptoms, for the most part.
>
> > It would make sense, although my BP came down very significantly (well within the average range) after the antidote it did not return to pre-hypertensive readings (which were low because the Parnate had decreased my BP readings generally) until about 5 days later.
>
> How high was it for those 5 days before it went back to normal?It was about 125/80; or 130/88 ish.
> > >[re desipramine and Nardil] One thing you might want to consider is that TCAs don't work very well for atypical depression. It might be worth a try, but there might be something else that's more likely to help.The more I have read about it, the more I have come to believe that atypical depression is at least part of what is going on with me. I have this odd suspicion that BP II may be part of the deal. And, yes, i suppose we aren't supposed to mix and match, but i just have this feeling. You know going to the NDMDA (thanks again for the turn on to this group) and listening to people talk about how many open projects they have--well, it makes me edgy. Then there have been some period of that I now believe are hypomania--my encounter with the stock market for one. Then there is the fact that meds seem to work and then don't. It all just gives me pause...
> > > > Is the Desipramine still doing you good
> > >
> > Ø Yes, it is.
> >
> > I am so pleased to hear this Elizabeth.
>
> Thank you. I'm pleased to say it.Desipramine still good? and are you still doing the buprophimine?
I think it's worth it to get a portable BP monitor (they'll fit in a reasonable-sized purse or handbag) so you can check it if you start getting symptoms.
You are probably right, although my purse is wallet style and not much will fit in it. Anyway, don't you think that once you've had that particular headache you will know it? By the way, if vascular dialation is the method of action then aspirin or Ginko might help in a pinch.
I'm still on Nardil (14 days). I was taking 1/2 valium (2.5 mg) plus 1 ambien and 900 mg Neurontin to get to sleep on Parnate. Now I have scaled back to 600 Neurontin; no valium and 1/2 ambien to sleep. (Tried 500 Neurontin and no ambien last night but woke up too many times with too much awake time in between). I had discontinued my estrogen but started hot flashing too much and so I am back on HRT but this is estrogen/progesterone combo. I am feeling lower energy on the Nardil, but also feeling some of the hyperventilation. Shelli says, and she may be right, that the Nardil probably is not causing but is not correcting the physical anxiety. I am reluctant to try the benzos regularly b/c of the withdrawal associated with them and b/c I think they dummy me down. I am reluctant to take Neurontin during the day b/c of the sedation. And then I have so many variable going here, that it is enough to make me just want to sit down and cry at the notion of trying to figure out what is what. The Nardil is not providing sufficient AD support (I'm at 30 mg). What a twisted uphill road I walk right now. The funny thing is that I have gotten irritable at times--causing my husband to say "what is going on" and me to respond with "you insensitive lout, I'm on a new med, give it a rest already will you!!!" Then on the other hand, I have actually had a good fight or two with him--almost like I have the will to fight back. So there you have it--life in this edge of the universe.Lorraine
Posted by Lorraine on September 23, 2001, at 16:19:50
In reply to Re: hanging in there » Lorraine, posted by shelliR on September 22, 2001, at 21:49:47
> Hi Lorraine
> > >
> [re: why i live folder] That's a nice idea, especially since you've been organized enough to save stuff like that.Shelli, i have a million folders. I organized this one within the last 2 months. I just happened to get a wonderful email from my father in law and then a note from my mom and I thought i need to save these--at the time they both felt like they were saving me.
> > >And here I am picking nardil as my AD when I really have no reason to believe that it will work for me
It's such a bumber when what worked b/4 poops out
> > > I've retried it before since it lost it's effectiveness with no results.
For how long did you retry it? No results or partial response?
> > > The wellbutrin helps with activation; I sort of see it as a booster similar to adding say, ritalin or any other stimulent.
Me too.
But I get no antidepressant effects from it. So I go up (hopefully this week) on the nardil, then what's next?
Have you tried the other MAOs? You had a positive response to one. My pdoc says until you have tried all of the MAOs you haven't tried MAOs--meaning that they are all different.
> > >There is something going on with the oxy and I know it's rebound depression in the morning, because never in my entire life have a woken up every single day this depressed. I think I might add a pill tonight at about 11pm and see if that stops the rebound effect. I'm curious to see if that has any effect on lowering the magnitude of the morning depression. It may be too activating, however, to sleep at night. Tonight I am feeling the depression more than I have for the past few days. It is scary to me.
I've been feeling depressed as well, but not as low as you are. What about a sleeping aid at night if the oxy is too activating?
> > > Mood stablizers are very often used to boost ADs; so yes, in that sense, the whole idea is for them to have anti-depressant effects. That was the case for me with lamictal, and I assume the reason you take neurotin, since neither of us are bi-polar.I'm not confident that I am not bipolar II. But the reason I take Neurontin is because my EEG and QEEG show activity much like temporal lobe epilepsy--lots of spiking. I did find that Neurontin was mood supportive at a certain dose (900 mg), but that hasn't really held.
> Still, for me, I've been trying to come to grips with the fact that this is first and foremost an illness and that it is a chronic illness without a known cure. I feel like I have to accept that level of reality to move forward in my life.
>
> I was thinking when I got your post this morning that I don't really understand how your depression feels. Like for me it is a huge weight in my chest, a very physical pain. And a tightness when I try to talk, or really even breathe. You said you have atypical depression so I know what the list is. You once mentioned sadness welling up behind your eyes. Is sadness a large part of it? Well maybe you could just describe it for me.OK. Weepy, lethargic, complete and profound lack of energy and motivation, like walking through mud. Everything is too much effort; everything is too hopeless. Want to sleep all the time. Complete withdrawal from people. Do not leave the house. These days we can add to it anxiety. Hyperventilate; cannot bear to "wait"; read about certain things; bear the risk of certain things (especially with my kids).
>
> > >Shelli, you know the best way for you to get support. I'm not trying to push you one way or the other.
>
> Well, I do feel pushed, sort of like you can't help it, despite your best intentions. < g >Yeah, I know, it's hard for me not to want to fix things when someone is in pain and it is hard for me not to want to fix them my way--meaning what would work for me even tho I fully know that my way doesn't necessarily fit. I'm intellectually aware of this stuff. I don't think I've had anyone call me on it quite like you do, although from my perspective it's good timing b/c it is time to change this particular pattern. I have been focused on it even b/4 you brought it up. I do wish the best for you and, yes, i can see that i cannot make it happen for you anymore than you can make it happen for me.
> > > See this is where I get mixed up about your depression. Aside from dipping in the afternoon, are you without depression in the morning and evening? When you describe your depression you use very mild terms (like dipping) and then on the other hand you say you are trying to come to terms with having an illness without a known cure, which implies severe impairment. So I get confused. Do you think my confusion is semantics? Like in the morning to you want to get out of bed? And then later in the afternoon (during your dip) do you feel like getting into bed and pulling your covers over your head. That's what I'm trying to understand.If i stay still with myself right now (which I try not to do b/c it is too painful), I am depressed most of the time. I can get out of bed in the morning (that's probably Nardil)--I don't want to pull the covers over my head b/c then i would have to sit with the pain of my depression and that is just way, way, way too difficult for me. I am functioning to the extent that I am able to do and be with my family. I am not capable of much else. I could not, for instance, work. The depression is with me constantly--it does not descend upon me and then leave, it is not episodic, it is ever present and sometimes i respond to the meds, but i do not remit, i do not approach normal. I fluctuate between hope and despair and i try not to think about despair. I try to just keep walking. I get up in the morning b/c one does; i drive my son to school b/c i can; i try to "move" through my days. Today is not a good day and i feel like the Nardil is not doing anything.
The Essential Guide to Psychiatric Drugs describes atypical depression as follows:
"Patients with atypical depression maintain a reactive mood throughout their depression..this has nothing to do with how deeply depressed they feel. From time to time something good will happen that temporarily cheers the paient up to the point where she actually experiences pleasure."
Shelli--that happens with me and it confuses me b/c i think i'm coming out of my depression, but i am not.
"Many of the vegtative signs observed in major depression and dysthymia are reversed in atypical depression. Patients with atypical depression tend to overeat and oversleep. Patients with atyp8ical depression have no trouble falling asleep or staying aleep; in fact (they oversleep). The patient may explain the sleeping as his only escape."
That is me unmedicated. Most of my meds get me out of bed, at least. And, i don't return to bed b/c it makes me feel worse.
"In his groundbreaking work on classifying depression, Donald F. Klein, M.D. has likened the life of a pateint with atypical depression to being on a roller coaster."
This is why I started keeping a mood chart. I distrusted what i would say when i saw my pdoc--it depended on how i was feeling right then (the past days or weeks forgotten and the future assured). Shelli, this is probably why you can't figure out my depression also b/c of this little roller coaster thing going on. One day I sound one way and another day, another way. Today, I'm really down. Was my good mood the other day an illusion?
"unlike the discrete episodic nature of major depression, atypical depression seems to last for years"
> > > I just get confused because my gyn (who I think is very smart), but yes, is also an ob, thinks that hormone tests are not very significant because they constantly fluctuate from day to day. Adjustment done on reaction is what she is big on, I think.Well, mine is big on this as well, but also takes tests. The test she is talking about is new to determine level for breast cancer risk is new--i think it is urine based. She does believe in the tests although they clearly just measure a point in time. She says when you are first becoming perimenopausal, most doctors look at the estrogen level and this is a mistake b/c the first indication of perimenopausal activity is a decrease in progesterone.
> > > Anyway, I have been good about doing the treadmill 45minutes almost everyday, so hopefully between that and the lost of appetite on the wellbutrin, I'll at least become a thinner depressive.
That is a lot of will power to get yourself going 45 minutes a day. I have become a thin depressive. I hope you do too. It doesn't cure depression, but it is one less thing to feel bad about:-)
Lorraine
Posted by shelliR on September 24, 2001, at 0:12:09
In reply to Re: hanging in there » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on September 23, 2001, at 16:19:50
> > Hi Lorraine
> > > >> Shelli, i have a million folders.
Are they all organized in alphabetical order or by color? Just curious!>
> > > >And here I am picking nardil as my AD when I really have no reason to believe that it will work for me
> It's such a bumber when what worked b/4 poops out
> > > > I've retried it before since it lost it's effectiveness with no results.
> For how long did you retry it? No results or partial response?I went off it for only a short time around this time last year (did a fairly long trial of serzone) and totally crashed and wanted to go back on nardil. But I must not have gotten more than a very partial response, because we keep trying adjunct after adjunct. And then I was supplementing with vicodin almost everyday, but staying at the same low level. I had left my pdoc because she disallowed the vicodin and kept throwing APs at me and I was very sick of trials. So I switched to a guy who didn't care if I took vicodin (didn't prescribe them for me, though) and I only saw him once. He just kept refilling prescriptions for nardil and klonopin. I guess things kept getting worse and I was seaching the net and PB for new ideas and decided I wanted to try selegilene and called him and said that he had never used it and felt that I was "over his head" and should go back to my old pdoc.
So then I went into the hospital and have been off nardil ever since--I guess that was this June. The thing is that this time I am willing to go higher on nardil this time as long as my pdoc will give me something to knock me out at night. He says he will. And it will be in combination with wellbutrin which will help with the tiredness, if the depression lifts. And the oxy might stay if the AD stops me from having to keep going up. My last pdoc didn't want to add anything besides an AP to sleep. I was already taking valium and aterex (a strong antihistimine) . Once I added serequel to sleep and it kept me up the entire night. I can't justify taking an AP for sleep anyway; there are other things I could have tried that don't cause TD and don't cause weight gain. She's had several patients who developed TD and she has this cavilier attitude about it (it *only* took four months for it to go away). Well, I couldn't stay in my profession for four months with a twiching face, so we had some words about that.
> Have you tried the other MAOs? You had a positive response to one. My pdoc says until you have tried all of the MAOs you haven't tried MAOs--meaning that they are all different.Well. remember I tried parnate just after you. So there's really just one non-reversible MAOI that I haven't tried.
>
> > > >There is something going on with the oxy and I know it's rebound depression in the morning, because never in my entire life have a woken up every single day this depressed. I think I might add a pill tonight at about 11pm and see if that stops the rebound effect. I'm curious to see if that has any effect on lowering the magnitude of the morning depression. It may be too activating, however, to sleep at night. Tonight I am feeling the depression more than I have for the past few days. It is scary to me.
> I've been feeling depressed as well, but not as low as you are. What about a sleeping aid at night if the oxy is too activating?I can't really add more than I am taking now unless I add a new one. (not more valium and not more aterex). And I didn't tell him about the "experiment". I tried it last evening and I did wake up less depressed, but I did not get a good night's sleep.
> > > > Mood stablizers are very often used to boost ADs; so yes, in that sense, the whole idea is for them to have anti-depressant effects. That was the case for me with lamictal, and I assume the reason you take neurotin, since neither of us are bi-polar.
> I'm not confident that I am not bipolar II. But the reason I take Neurontin is because my EEG and QEEG show activity much like temporal lobe epilepsy--lots of spiking. I did find that Neurontin was mood supportive at a certain dose (900 mg), but that hasn't really held.Yes, I didn't know that until I read your post to Eliz. Are you continuing on the neurontin as you build up the nardil?
>>
> OK. Weepy, lethargic, complete and profound lack of energy and motivation, like walking through mud. Everything is too much effort; everything is too hopeless. Want to sleep all the time. Complete withdrawal from people. Do not leave the house. These days we can add to it anxiety. Hyperventilate; cannot bear to "wait"; read about certain things; bear the risk of certain things (especially with my kids).Thanks for explaining. Our depressions are very different I think. Sometimes now I feel no depression due to the oxy. That's why I am still able to work, do the treadmill, etc. Most of the time is okay, not great, but okay. But the oxy needs to go up for me to maintain this mood ........(and I don't even want to go there).
>
> > > >Shelli, you know the best way for you to get support. I'm not trying to push you one way or the other.
> > Well, I do feel pushed, sort of like you can't help it, despite your best intentions. < g >
> Yeah, I know, it's hard for me not to want to fix things when someone is in pain and it is hard for me not to want to fix them my way--meaning what would work for me even tho I fully know that my way doesn't necessarily fit. I'm intellectually aware of this stuff. I don't think I've had anyone call me on it quite like you do....Well, it's different to react in posts, different from if someone is actually engaged in conversation with you. Also it is easy for me to point things out like that because we have no "stuff" already there, so mentioning it wouldn't probably make you defensive. Anyway, you set yourself up by saying, "I'm not trying to..........", so it is amusing to me to say, "Of course you are." Like I'm not talking about any serious flaw. :-)
>
> The Essential Guide to Psychiatric Drugs describes atypical depression as follows:
> "Patients with atypical depression maintain a reactive mood throughout their depression..this has nothing to do with how deeply depressed they feel. From time to time something good will happen that temporarily cheers the paient up to the point where she actually experiences pleasure."
> Shelli--that happens with me and it confuses me b/c i think i'm coming out of my depression, but i am not.because when you experience pleasure, sometimes it is pure pleasure, not at all hazy?
>
> "In his groundbreaking work on classifying depression, Donald F. Klein, M.D. has likened the life of a pateint with atypical depression to being on a roller coaster."I don't understand that. Because you can experience pleasure sometimes, that is a roller coaster? I think of a roller coaster as Bipolar II, which I realize you think you may have, but I don't get the imagine of a roller coaster when you describe your days.
Unless it is not a very steep roller coaster?> This is why I started keeping a mood chart. I distrusted what i would say when i saw my pdoc--it depended on how i was feeling right then (the past days or weeks forgotten and the future assured). Shelli, this is probably why you can't figure out my depression also b/c of this little roller coaster thing going on. One day I sound one way and another day, another way. Today, I'm really down. Was my good mood the other day an illusion?
Okay, so you have whole days in which you don't feel the depression and you attribute that to the anti-depressant working, and then the next day, if it is not good, to the anti-depressant not working. (yes?) Well maybe you are having good days and bad days in your depression and when the AD really works you will feel different from both your good days and bad days. Certainly you will not always be questioning.
>
When the AD worked for me the first time (in my twenties) it was an "oh my god, this is what life can feel like" But I did have lots of downs throughout those years, just no long horrible downs. I was just starting to feel no downs for a while, just premensturally then I got to an all the time down (that's where I think hormones come in). It is hard for me to really know whether I'd still be alive without the oxy, whether I could stand that amount of pain. It was truely awful for me. So I would probably become a drug addict and have a good time, before I decided to kill myself. I'm serious. And then I guess I would try ECT.I really have the feeling that nardil may be right for you. Remember it took 5 weeks for me at 45mg. I know you react quicker, but still, you have just gone up to 30mg. I know it is hard to hold hope, but I think given the lack of side effects, you do have reason to be optimistic. I even think that maybe you could have worked with parnate, if you had been willling to add benzos, if I am recalling right. (I might not be; I have a hard time remembering my own reactions, let alone yours) :-)
Shelli
>>
>
>
>
Posted by Elizabeth on September 24, 2001, at 10:11:53
In reply to Re: Hypertensive crises, update » Elizabeth, posted by Lorraine on September 18, 2001, at 10:14:30
> > That's right. I'm surprised your pulse runs low along with the low BP and the MAOI, though.
>
> It does run low on MAOs. Who knows what normal is?I don't think there's a clear line, but 73 is definitely normal-ish, and 59 is a little on the low side. My resting pulse on MAOIs used to run around 100 or more (presumably in an effort to compensate for decreased BP). It wasn't usually uncomfortable, but sometimes it did bother me.
> > What did you use for the migraines?
>
> Nothing. I never found anything that worked. I just stayed in bed, drew the blinds and waited it out. They lasted a couple of days.Sounds awful. Did you ever try sumatriptan or any of the other triptans that are out there?
> This is my point, elizabeth. Don't you think that any doctor in their right mind would carry an antidote if they were on an MAO? Don't you think this "I'm not sure if the patient can be trusted" stuff is a bit patronizing? Tell me about the pulmonary hemorrhage. What is it? Are you OK now? It won't happen to you again, right?
Yes, doctors who refuse to give you nifedipine or some other effective vasodilator (beta blockers are not suited to this use, BTW) are being unacceptably patronising. I'm not sure why I didn't have it when that happened, because my pdoc at the time was *not* a patronising doctor at all. Anyway -- a pulmonary hemorrhage just means that there was bleeding in my lung (the right one only, not both, in this case). While I was waiting for my BP to go down, I started coughing. At the time I thought I was just coming down with a cold or having an allergic reaction to something. But the next day I was still coughing, and some of the stuff I was coughing up was bloody. So I went back to the med center and they ordered an x-ray (I had to go to Mass. General for that because it was a Sunday night and the lab at MIT Medical was closed). When it came back, the radiologist pointed to a spot and said, "you see this grey area?" (It all looked grey to me, but I just nodded.) It looked to them like it was either a hemorrhage or pneumonia, probably the former given what had happened the previous night. So I had to stay in bed for a week or so.
> Well, at one point I told you that my pdoc said I could take some Adderal with the Parnate if I needed to and you advised me to be careful. My hypertensive crises came from taking Adderal during my washout period (too much, too soon).
Oh, yeah. I had problems with amphetamines and MAOIs too. (I'm still confused as to whether you truly had a "hypertensive crisis" or whether it was just mildly elevated BP. It doesn't sound like it was anything too serious ("crisis" is supposed to imply a serious medical emergency).)
> The Nardil is making me "warmer" towards people. I hope I can take it. I have some side effects that I am wrestling with--skin picking and skin irritation.
Have you tried an antihistamine? Chlorpheniramine (ChlorTrimeton) is my personal favourite.
> I am just going to go slow with this titration. I'm at 22.5 now; down 2 pounds and no sexual impairment so far.
That's good news! I hope it continues going well.
best,
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on September 24, 2001, at 10:31:06
In reply to Re: Hypertensive crises, update » Elizabeth, posted by Lorraine on September 23, 2001, at 13:00:59
> > How high was it for those 5 days before it went back to normal?
>
> It was about 125/80; or 130/88 ish.I don't think that would be anything to worry about, although you might have some symptoms if your BP tends to run low normally.
> The more I have read about it, the more I have come to believe that atypical depression is at least part of what is going on with me. I have this odd suspicion that BP II may be part of the deal. And, yes, i suppose we aren't supposed to mix and match, but i just have this feeling.Mixing and matching is probably more accurate than trying to pigeonhole yourself. It's all a spectrum, you know? Like, I definitely have major depression, the traditional type, unipolar. But I also have problems that resemble mild ADD or Asperger's that predate the depression. My response to opioids is similar to the effects reported by addicts (and people who later go on to become addicts), which I think should be considered a psych disorder itself. (It's a feeling of not-rightness that predisposes people to addiction, but is there whether or not a person ever takes drugs). I also have panic attacks which may or may not be related to the depression. And then there are my sleep qurks. So you know, it's not all cut-and-dried.
> Then there have been some period of that I now believe are hypomania--my encounter with the stock market for one. Then there is the fact that meds seem to work and then don't. It all just gives me pause...
A suggestion: consider ADD as an alternative explanation.
> Desipramine still good? and are you still doing the buprophimine?
Nice try :-) It's buprenorphine. And yes, all still fine. (I'll post in a separate thread about where I've been for the last few days.)
> You are probably right, although my purse is wallet style and not much will fit in it. Anyway, don't you think that once you've had that particular headache you will know it?
Yes, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to tell from the headache exactly how high your BP is!
> By the way, if vascular dialation is the method of action then aspirin or Ginko might help in a pinch.
I've never heard either of those suggested. I'm not sure they would work fast enough, what the required dose would be, etc.
> I'm still on Nardil (14 days). I was taking 1/2 valium (2.5 mg) plus 1 ambien and 900 mg Neurontin to get to sleep on Parnate. Now I have scaled back to 600 Neurontin; no valium and 1/2 ambien to sleep.
Hey, that's good to hear.
> I am reluctant to try the benzos regularly b/c of the withdrawal associated with them and b/c I think they dummy me down.
You might only need them for a short time. As for the cognitive problems, trying a different bzd might be worthwhile.
> I am reluctant to take Neurontin during the day b/c of the sedation.
If you took it regularly, I'd expect the sedation to go away.
> The Nardil is not providing sufficient AD support (I'm at 30 mg).
I wouldn't expect 30 mg to work. Don't give up!
-e
Posted by Lorraine on September 24, 2001, at 10:36:33
In reply to Re: hanging in there » Lorraine, posted by shelliR on September 24, 2001, at 0:12:09
Hi Shelli:
>
> > Shelli, i have a million folders.
> Are they all organized in alphabetical order or by color? Just curious!No, it's just a ton of folders unorganized sitting here and there throughout the house. Lots of stacks of papers waiting for folders. My husband is the one with the suits arranged by day of the week to be worn. I'm the one hunting through a closet filled with clothes to find that one thing that I just bought yesterday--it should be in here somewhere...
> > For how long did you retry it? No results or partial response?
>
> I went off it for only a short time around this time last year (did a fairly long trial of serzone) and totally crashed and wanted to go back on nardil. But I must not have gotten more than a very partial response, because we keep trying adjunct after adjunct.Your pdoc might be able to make your partial response work. I read his article. It sounds so simple and full of hope. Do they really believe what they write or is it just the need to have a strong thesis without words like "I believe" thrown in to muddy it up.
> > >The thing is that this time I am willing to go higher on nardil this time as long as my pdoc will give me something to knock me out at night. He says he will.
The Ambien is working well for me now.
> > >And it will be in combination with wellbutrin which will help with the tiredness, if the depression lifts. And the oxy might stay if the AD stops me from having to keep going up.
Your oxy seems pretty ambitious about assuming a larger part of your life.
weight gain. She's had several patients who developed TD and she has this cavilier attitude about it (it *only* took four months for it to go away). Well, I couldn't stay in my profession for four months with a twiching face, so we had some words about that.>
> > > Have you tried the other MAOs? You had a positive response to one. My pdoc says until you have tried all of the MAOs you haven't tried MAOs--meaning that they are all different.
>
> Well. remember I tried parnate just after you. So there's really just one non-reversible MAOI that I haven't tried.Which one are you thinking of? Marplan? I hadn't compiled a serious list. Somehow I thought there was more on the list than just one or two more.
> > >What about a sleeping aid at night if the oxy is too activating?
>
> I can't really add more than I am taking now unless I add a new one. (not more valium and not more aterex). And I didn't tell him about the "experiment". I tried it last evening and I did wake up less depressed, but I did not get a good night's sleep.> > > I did find that Neurontin was mood supportive at a certain dose (900 mg), but that hasn't really held.
>
> Yes, I didn't know that until I read your post to Eliz. Are you continuing on the neurontin as you build up the nardil?The Nardil is activating and sedating?? I find myself reluctant to take the neurontin during the day because of the effect on my energy level, but I am going to do it today. I could add Adderal (very slowly and very carefully) to counteract the energy thing.
> > >[re: fixing stuff and being pushy] Anyway, you set yourself up by saying, "I'm not trying to..........", so it is amusing to me to say, "Of course you are." Like I'm not talking about any serious flaw. :-)
Actually, when I say "I'm not trying to", I am trying to be honest with myself about my intentions--trying to yank myself back from the edge of the curb so to speak. It's not language intended to manipulate you or myself, it's intent is to uncover and so I leave myself open intentionally for you to make your move. I'm not so sure it isn't a serious flaw actually. Certainly, it's one that I have revisited over the years, thought I'd addressed and then been ambushed by again. There's a reason why I do it and I think it is because it feels more comfortable, more powerful to give advice than to sit with someone else's feelings and just acknowledge them.
> > >From time to time something good will happen that temporarily cheers the paient up to the point where she actually experiences pleasure."
> > Shelli--that happens with me and it confuses me b/c i think i'm coming out of my depression, but i am not.
>
> because when you experience pleasure, sometimes it is pure pleasure, not at all hazy?It's not hazy; it feels like I'm coming home, but it usually doesn't last a whole day.
> > > I don't understand that. Because you can experience pleasure sometimes, that is a roller coaster? I think of a roller coaster as Bipolar II, which I realize you think you may have, but I don't get the imagine of a roller coaster when you describe your days.
> Unless it is not a very steep roller coaster?It's pretty steep (hope and despair).
> > >Well maybe you are having good days and bad days in your depression and when the AD really works you will feel different from both your good days and bad days. Certainly you will not always be questioning.Right. When an AD works I won't have those down times. My mood chart shows that I have them more often than not. Maybe a 5 to 1 ratio.
> >
> When the AD worked for me the first time (in my twenties) it was an "oh my god, this is what life can feel like" But I did have lots of downs throughout those years, just no long horrible downs.Yeah. We don't become immune to life's ups and downs we just have a floor to fall on.
> > >So I would probably become a drug addict and have a good time, before I decided to kill myself. I'm serious. And then I guess I would try ECT.
Shelli, have you seriously tried drugs? The life of an addict is not attractive or pleasant. Reality peeks in.
> > > I really have the feeling that nardil may be right for you. Remember it took 5 weeks for me at 45mg. I know you react quicker, but still, you have just gone up to 30mg. I know it is hard to hold hope, but I think given the lack of side effects, you do have reason to be optimistic.
Well, it's your experience that keeps me hanging with it because I do not feel any antidepressant effect.
> > > I even think that maybe you could have worked with parnate, if you had been willling to add benzos, if I am recalling right.
Sure if I could have dealt with the irritation. People in my life draw the line somewhere though:-)
(I might not be; I have a hard time remembering my own reactions, let alone yours) :-)
And I have a hard time remembering mine so you are unlikely to offend just confuse me.
Lorraine
Posted by Lorraine on September 24, 2001, at 13:57:47
In reply to more stuff » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on September 24, 2001, at 10:31:06
Elizabeth:
> > > I don't think there's a clear line, but 73 is definitely normal-ish, and 59 is a little on the low side.
Now, that I think of it, I know someone whose resting pulse is generally 50ish or lower and they put in a pace maker on him. Said that was just too low as a general matter. I guess the point is to get enough blood to your organs.
> > >My resting pulse on MAOIs used to run around 100 or more (presumably in an effort to compensate for decreased BP).
When mine gets in the 90's, it bothers me--I become very aware of it.
[re migraines] Did you ever try sumatriptan or any of the other triptans that are out there?
It's so long ago that I don't remember, and, really it wasn't until I'd had them a long time that any doctor was willing to do anything about them. I read something in one of the NDMDA publications recently though about how the DSM categories fail us noting that one problem is that they do not take into account our etiology--the development of symptom over time and he gave the example of the person who has migraines and goes on to develop depression. His point was that nobody tracks this stuff and that it may actually reflect the course of an illness over time.
> > > Yes, doctors who refuse to give you nifedipine or some other effective vasodilator (beta blockers are not suited to this use, BTW) are being unacceptably patronising.Reading the NAMI stuff, it sounds like treating mental patients as children pretty pervasive--much more so than other patients.
> > >When it came back, the radiologist pointed to a spot and said, "you see this grey area?" (It all looked grey to me, but I just nodded.)
Very funny.
> > > Oh, yeah. I had problems with amphetamines and MAOIs too. (I'm still confused as to whether you truly had a "hypertensive crisis" or whether it was just mildly elevated BP. It doesn't sound like it was anything too serious ("crisis" is supposed to imply a serious medical emergency).)
It was not a true crises. But I like the drama of the word and "mildly elevated" just doesn't describe what it feels like when that happens:-)
> > The Nardil is making me "warmer" towards people. I hope I can take it. I have some side effects that I am wrestling with--skin picking and skin irritation.You'll love this--the skin irritation/rash was b/c of latex gloves and painting.
>
> Have you tried an antihistamine? Chlorpheniramine (ChlorTrimeton) is my personal favourite.Aren't people on MAOs supposed to avoid antihistamines?
>
> > The more I have read about it, the more I have come to believe that atypical depression is at least part of what is going on with me. I have this odd suspicion that BP II may be part of the deal. And, yes, i suppose we aren't supposed to mix and match, but i just have this feeling.
>
> Mixing and matching is probably more accurate than trying to pigeonhole yourself. It's all a spectrum, you know? Like, I definitely have major depression, the traditional type, unipolar. But I also have problems that resemble mild ADD or Asperger's that predate the depression.Isn't Asperger's an inability to read social cues and body language?
> > >My response to opioids is similar to the effects reported by addicts (and people who later go on to become addicts), which I think should be considered a psych disorder itself.
I agree with you on this. California recently passed a law that requires treatment as the first line of defense with drug related arrests.
> > >(It's a feeling of not-rightness that predisposes people to addiction, but is there whether or not a person ever takes drugs).
Really? Has this feeling of not-rightness been there you're whole life? I always felt that I was "other"--that I stood outside the normal group of people--that I was different. Is this feeling different from yours?
> > >I also have panic attacks which may or may not be related to the depression. And then there are my sleep qurks. So you know, it's not all cut-and-dried.
Don't you wish it were cut and dried. How are you doing with the anxiety? If it is being handled, which drug is doing this?
> > > A suggestion: consider ADD as an alternative explanation.
Well, ADD is not a bad explanation at all considering the temporal lobe epilespy like brain waves and the effect that Adderal has on me and the cognitive impairment.
> > >(I'll post in a separate thread about where I've been for the last few days.)
Sounds mysterious.
> > > By the way, if vascular dialation is the method of action then aspirin or Ginko might help in a pinch.
>
> I've never heard either of those suggested. I'm not sure they would work fast enough, what the required dose would be, etc.Neither have I. But you know with stroke (or is it heart attack) they are saying aspirin given immediately helps.
> > > You might only need them for a short time. As for the cognitive problems, trying a different bzd might be worthwhile.
It would be great if the anxiety was a short term problem. Or are you thinking the Nardil will kick in and help this or the Nardil is exacerbating the anxiety temporarily? I find myself drinking more caffeine--which probably means I am understimulated.
> > > I am reluctant to take Neurontin during the day b/c of the sedation.
>
> If you took it regularly, I'd expect the sedation to go away.You may be right. I took it during the day with Selegiline, but Selegiline was activating. Anyway I am going to try it today and see what happens.
> > > The Nardil is not providing sufficient AD support (I'm at 30 mg).
>
> I wouldn't expect 30 mg to work. Don't give up!Really? You would go higher? But then it takes a lot of drug for you to feel it normally, right?
Your post made me smile, elizabeth, you have a keen sense of humor.
Lorraine
Posted by Elizabeth on September 24, 2001, at 19:03:02
In reply to Re: more stuff » Elizabeth, posted by Lorraine on September 24, 2001, at 13:57:47
> Now, that I think of it, I know someone whose resting pulse is generally 50ish or lower and they put in a pace maker on him. Said that was just too low as a general matter. I guess the point is to get enough blood to your organs.
That's important! I think that if it runs below 50 or 60 as a general rule, that's probably too low, yes.
> When mine gets in the 90's, it bothers me--I become very aware of it.
I start noticing it around 100 or 110. Often drinking a glass of water will slow it down some, IME.
> I read something in one of the NDMDA publications recently though about how the DSM categories fail us noting that one problem is that they do not take into account our etiology--the development of symptom over time and he gave the example of the person who has migraines and goes on to develop depression.
That's not necessarily an etiology (DSM tries to avoid that, actually, for better or for worse) so much as comorbidity. There is some research on comorbid conditions as predictors of response to treatment, although it's not enough IMO. I'd like to see somebody look into, e.g., the types of psychiatric symptoms that are seen in people with migraine. (Two of my first cousins have migraines, BTW, and the third has panic disorder.)
> Reading the NAMI stuff, it sounds like treating mental patients as children pretty pervasive--much more so than other patients.
Oh yeah, definitely.
> > > >When it came back, the radiologist pointed to a spot and said, "you see this grey area?" (It all looked grey to me, but I just nodded.)
>
> Very funny.Seriously though, those radiologists must either be brilliant or bluffing.
> It was not a true crises. But I like the drama of the word and "mildly elevated" just doesn't describe what it feels like when that happens:-)
You're a "drama" person, huh? Should I be scared? :-)
> You'll love this--the skin irritation/rash was b/c of latex gloves and painting.
Ahh, well good that it wasn't the Nardil at least. Regular contact with latex seems to sensitise people, increasing the risk of allergic reactions. (I wonder what this means for people my age ("generation X") -- as we were growing up, AIDS became more publically recognised, and all my friends who were sexually active used condoms every time they had sex, or claimed to anyway.)
> > Have you tried an antihistamine? Chlorpheniramine (ChlorTrimeton) is my personal favourite.
>
> Aren't people on MAOs supposed to avoid antihistamines?No, antihistamines are fine; it's decongestants (e.g., Sudafed) that are a problem (the locally-acting ones like Afrin don't seem to be a problem, though).
> Isn't Asperger's an inability to read social cues and body language?
Yes, that's part of it. There's a pretty good description at http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/karen_williams_guidelines.html
> > > >My response to opioids is similar to the effects reported by addicts (and people who later go on to become addicts), which I think should be considered a psych disorder itself.
>
> I agree with you on this. California recently passed a law that requires treatment as the first line of defense with drug related arrests.The problem as I see it is, pre-emptive treatment with opioids isn't recognised as a legitimate treatment because the disorder that many opioid users are self-medicating (whatever you want to call it) isn't recognised: the addiction is seen as the main problem, when IMO it's just the tip of the iceberg in most cases. There are still a lot of people -- lay people, politicians, etc. mostly -- who don't even believe that opioid maintenance treatment is a legitimate treatment for addiction. They think it's just replacing one addiction with another because they don't understand that there's a preexisting disorder.
> Really? Has this feeling of not-rightness been there you're whole life?
Yes.
> I always felt that I was "other"--that I stood outside the normal group of people--that I was different. Is this feeling different from yours?
Maybe it's the same thing. Who knows?
> > > >I also have panic attacks which may or may not be related to the depression. And then there are my sleep qurks. So you know, it's not all cut-and-dried.
>
> Don't you wish it were cut and dried. How are you doing with the anxiety? If it is being handled, which drug is doing this?Desipramine doesn't work as well as Parnate for panic, and I've had a couple of breakthrough attacks. Xanax still works fine, although it takes a fairly hefty dose. (This isn't due to tolerance; I've always needed a lot. When I first tried benzos, I was convinced they were worthless because they didn't do anything for me at the doses that were prescribed.)
> Well, ADD is not a bad explanation at all considering the temporal lobe epilespy like brain waves and the effect that Adderal has on me and the cognitive impairment.
I think that ADD, panic d/o, atypical depression, and bipolar II are all related; the lines aren't so clear. TLE might be involved too, in some cases.
[re aspirin and ginkgo]
> Neither have I. But you know with stroke (or is it heart attack) they are saying aspirin given immediately helps.It's also used long-term to prevent heart attacks. It's a blood thinner; when I had a high platelet count after that weird coma thing back in February-March, the hematologist at the hospital put me on it (they were also giving me heparin for a few days).
> It would be great if the anxiety was a short term problem. Or are you thinking the Nardil will kick in and help this or the Nardil is exacerbating the anxiety temporarily?
I'm thinking the Nardil will help. It's a great anxiolytic.
> I find myself drinking more caffeine--which probably means I am understimulated.
Maybe. How much caffeine are you drinking?
[re sedation on Neurontin]
> You may be right. I took it during the day with Selegiline, but Selegiline was activating.Yeah, I've found that I can take all sorts of sedating things during the day with buprenorphine (antihistamines, etc.).
> Anyway I am going to try it today and see what happens.
Good luck! Let me know how it goes.
> > I wouldn't expect 30 mg to work. Don't give up!
>
> Really? You would go higher? But then it takes a lot of drug for you to feel it normally, right?Not necessarily, no. Depends on the drug. But I wasn't talking about me; I was talking about people in general. 30 mg of phenelzine isn't much. The typical therapeutic dose is 60; although 45 works for some people, it often isn't enough.
> Your post made me smile, elizabeth, you have a keen sense of humor.
Aww. Thank you. I'm glad to hear that you're smiling -- that's a good sign. :-)
-elizabeth
Posted by shelliR on September 24, 2001, at 22:58:07
In reply to Re: hanging in there » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on September 24, 2001, at 10:36:33
> Hi Shelli:
>
> >
> > > Shelli, i have a million folders.
> > Are they all organized in alphabetical order or by color? Just curious!
>
> No, it's just a ton of folders unorganized sitting here and there throughout the house. Lots of stacks of papers waiting for folders. My husband is the one with the suits arranged by day of the week to be worn. I'm the one hunting through a closet filled with clothes to find that one thing that I just bought yesterday--it should be in here somewhere...we're very alike there. It drives me crazy how much time I lose looking for things. The men in my life have been like your husband, totally organized and neat. I always think that men are either that way, or total slobs. When I'm in a relationship I try a lot harder. Aside from my living room, I live in chaos. I don't notice it, then I step back and am in shock. Things fall off my desk on to the floor and I just walk over them; I never think to pick them up. My therapist and I try to work on things as basic as organization, both in how I live and in how I work. Mostly because it wastes so much of my time and and adds to my inner chaos. Like now I am sitting at the computer, every inch of the table is filled, and my stacks have fallen into unorganized clutter. I am totally focused on the computer so it doesn't bother me, but when I really look I am appalled. I go into states of trying very very hard to keep things in order, because I really love it when they are. But I never stick to it.
>
>
> > > For how long did you retry it? No results or partial response?
> > I went off it for only a short time around this time last year (did a fairly long trial of serzone) and totally crashed and wanted to go back on nardil. But I must not have gotten more than a very partial response, because we keep trying adjunct after adjunct.
>
> Your pdoc might be able to make your partial response work. I read his article. It sounds so simple and full of hope. Do they really believe what they write or is it just the need to have a strong thesis without words like "I believe" thrown in to muddy it up.That's really funny. I think he probably believes what he writes and when things don't work out with someone, it probably breezes right out of his consciousness, so he can keep his theories in tact. Like I think he really didn't anticipate that I would get habituated to the oxy, and he's not sure how to play it yet. Sometimes he's reassuring; other times he sounds like he's quite annoyed that my body didn't do it's job to conform to his plan.
Also, did you notice how he dismissed MAIOs and tricyclics because of their side effects. As as there aren't a milllion side effects from the other ADs.
> > > >The thing is that this time I am willing to go higher on nardil this time as long as my pdoc will give me something to knock me out at night. He says he will.
> The Ambien is working well for me now.I know I've tried Ambien but I don't remember what happened--it was a long time ago. I would be willing to retry it. I think I'm going to ask my pdoc of ten years to give me a copy of all my files. When I asked her last time, she had her nurse practioner go through all my records and write what meds I had tried, when, how much, and why I went off. I can't find those sheets (surprise, surprise), but I think she missed things anyway, (I mean it was ten years). I'd like to see the whole thing and I want a copy, even if I have to pay. I don't think she can refuse in Maryland unless seeing them would create a danger to myself.
>
> > > >And it will be in combination with wellbutrin which will help with the tiredness, if the depression lifts. And the oxy might stay if the AD stops me from having to keep going up.
> Your oxy seems pretty ambitious about assuming a larger part of your life.My oxy is ambitious? :-) You've lost me, totally. Please explain.
> > > > Have you tried the other MAOs? You had a positive response to one. My pdoc says until you have tried all of the MAOs you haven't tried MAOs--meaning that they are all different.
> > Well. remember I tried parnate just after you. So there's really just one non-reversible MAOI that I haven't tried.
> Which one are you thinking of? Marplan? I hadn't compiled a serious list. Somehow I thought there was more on the list than just one or two more.I think that's all in the US.
>
>
> > > > I did find that Neurontin was mood supportive at a certain dose (900 mg), but that hasn't really held.
> >
> > Yes, I didn't know that until I read your post to Eliz. Are you continuing on the neurontin as you build up the nardil?
>
> The Nardil is activating and sedating?? I find myself reluctant to take the neurontin during the day because of the effect on my energy level, but I am going to do it today. I could add Adderal (very slowly and very carefully) to counteract the energy thing.I don't know if that's a good idea to add the adderal yet; it's probably best if you can to see what the nardil exactly does if you can. Why do you want to add the neurontin now? I guess maybe the waiting period is feeling too hard right now?
>
>> > > >From time to time something good will happen that temporarily cheers the paient up to the point where she actually experiences pleasure."
> > > Shelli--that happens with me and it confuses me b/c i think i'm coming out of my depression, but i am not.
> >
> > because when you experience pleasure, sometimes it is pure pleasure, not at all hazy?
>
> It's not hazy; it feels like I'm coming home, but it usually doesn't last a whole day.
>
> > > > I don't understand that. Because you can experience pleasure sometimes, that is a roller coaster? I think of a roller coaster as Bipolar II, which I realize you think you may have, but I don't get the imagine of a roller coaster when you describe your days.
> > Unless it is not a very steep roller coaster?
>
> It's pretty steep (hope and despair).
I guess I was thinking of the roller coaster in terms in terms of very depressed, very happy. Hope and despair are a little more in the head, sort of an evaluative thing. Like I can feel very depressed but hopeful, if I am trying a new AD that I think will work.
>
>
> > > >Well maybe you are having good days and bad days in your depression and when the AD really works you will feel different from both your good days and bad days. Certainly you will not always be questioning.
> Right. When an AD works I won't have those down times. My mood chart shows that I have them more often than not. Maybe a 5 to 1 ratio.I didn't really understand how bad your ratio was. But then my bads are worse than your bads, and my ratio is better, so the overall result could be close. (I just realized how competitive that sounded. :-) Really, I am just trying to understand. (I always want to understand. It can drive me and others crazy at times.)
>
> > >
> > When the AD worked for me the first time (in my twenties) it was an "oh my god, this is what life can feel like" But I did have lots of downs throughout those years, just no long horrible downs.
> Yeah. We don't become immune to life's ups and downs we just have a floor to fall on.Well, aside from the ups and downs, I had a lot more self-defeating thoughts and actions, also.
>
> > > >So I would probably become a drug addict and have a good time, before I decided to kill myself. I'm serious. And then I guess I would try ECT.
>
> Shelli, have you seriously tried drugs?
No, only the vicodin and now the oxy.The life of an addict is not attractive or pleasant. Reality peeks in.
Okay, the plan is : get high, go to France, have fun and spend all my money; when I become poor and an addict, *then* kill myself. But why not use money and drugs in excess first.
However. It's only a plan if I decide to kill myself, and that, as we have discussed, is not an option. So it's more like a perverse fantasy.
Or black humor.> > > > I really have the feeling that nardil may be right for you. Remember it took 5 weeks for me at 45mg. I know you react quicker, but still, you have just gone up to 30mg. I know it is hard to hold hope, but I think given the lack of side effects, you do have reason to be optimistic.
> Well, it's your experience that keeps me hanging with it because I do not feel any antidepressant effect.Well my opinion is (for you to take or leave, of course) is that you should go pretty quickly up to 45 mg. Then if the AD hits, you can then go down. That's what I did. My whole trial was at 45 mg, then I went down to 30mg. If I was to do it again, I'd go quickly to 60mg, then go down later. I am only going slowly up now because of the wellbutrin. Doing trials too slowly raises too much time; your side effects don't sound too bad from the nardil, why not go for it?
>
> > > > I even think that maybe you could have worked with parnate, if you had been willling to add benzos, if I am recalling right.
> Sure if I could have dealt with the irritation. People in my life draw the line somewhere though:-)
> (I might not be; I have a hard time remembering my own reactions, let alone yours) :-)
> And I have a hard time remembering mine so you are unlikely to offend just confuse me.You are right, I forgot about the irritation. But you don't seem to be having any bad effects on the nardil, or did I miss something big, again?
>
Shelli
Posted by Lorraine on September 25, 2001, at 17:04:23
In reply to Re: more stuff » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on September 24, 2001, at 19:03:02
Elizabeth:
> > When mine gets in the 90's, it bothers me--I become very aware of it.
>
> I start noticing it around 100 or 110. Often drinking a glass of water will slow it down some, IME.
That's good to know. Maybe hydration is important for this, increasing blood volume to slow the pulse?> > > Seriously though, those radiologists must either be brilliant or bluffing.
It's a frightening thought--I doubt it's billiance b/c I'm not sure radiology attracts brilliance. I never know what they are look at either.
>
> > It was not a true crises. But I like the drama of the word and "mildly elevated" just doesn't describe what it feels like when that happens:-)
>
> You're a "drama" person, huh? Should I be scared? :-)See, I like it when I describe what happened and my friends say "jeez!"--if I said mildly elevated they would yawn.
> > >(I wonder what this means for people my age ("generation X") -- as we were growing up, AIDS became more publically recognised, and all my friends who were sexually active used condoms every time they had sex, or claimed to anyway.)I hate condoms. I think it is so sad that your generation didn't have the sort of free abandon with sex that mine had. One the other hand, my generation contracted many STDs, which although not lethal, cause long term problems like herpes and warts (the latter being connected with cervical cancer).
> > > Have you tried an antihistamine? Chlorpheniramine (ChlorTrimeton) is my personal favourite.
> >
> > Aren't people on MAOs supposed to avoid antihistamines?
>
> No, antihistamines are fine; it's decongestants (e.g., Sudafed) that are a problem (the locally-acting ones like Afrin don't seem to be a problem, though).OK. I'll have to take note of that. I may need this info later.
>
> > Isn't Asperger's an inability to read social cues and body language?
>
> Yes, that's part of it. There's a pretty good description at http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/karen_williams_guidelines.htmlI read up on it. I know someone whose son was recently diagnosed--although I don't know her well.
>
> > > > > > The problem as I see it is, pre-emptive treatment with opioids isn't recognised as a legitimate treatment because the disorder that many opioid users are self-medicating (whatever you want to call it) isn't recognised: the addiction is seen as the main problem, when IMO it's just the tip of the iceberg in most cases.In my mind it goes like this. Is there a neurotransmitter in the human body that uses this chemical in the absence of addiction? If so, there may be a deficiency.
> > Really? Has this feeling of not-rightness been there you're whole life?
>
> Yes.
>
> > I always felt that I was "other"--that I stood outside the normal group of people--that I was different. Is this feeling different from yours?
> Maybe it's the same thing. Who knows?
>
Well in my case, it's hard to say whether I would have had this feeling but for the burns that I sustained. I was in "isolation" in a tent for three weeks and then at home tutored for another month then put in a special ed class b/c of my bandages then ridiculed by other kids and this was a wound that was continually reopened b/c we moved a lot. Each time a new group of kids, with me the outsider, then their eventual discovery of my burn scars (PE class usually) and reaction. So I didn't feel normal at all.
>> > Well, ADD is not a bad explanation at all considering the temporal lobe epilespy like brain waves and the effect that Adderal has on me and the cognitive impairment.
>
> I think that ADD, panic d/o, atypical depression, and bipolar II are all related; the lines aren't so clear. TLE might be involved too, in some cases.I just read an article that said that the incidence of bipolar II among those with atypical depression is 64% so there clearly is a more than chance relationship going here.
> > >I had a high platelet count after that weird coma thing back in February-March, the hematologist at the hospital put me on it (they were also giving me heparin for a few days).
OK. So, what caused this coma? What was this about? (elizabeth, are you stoic? I go for the drama and you go for the understatement< g >)
>
> > It would be great if the anxiety was a short term problem. Or are you thinking the Nardil will kick in and help this or the Nardil is exacerbating the anxiety temporarily?
>
> I'm thinking the Nardil will help. It's a great anxiolytic.
>
> > I find myself drinking more caffeine--which probably means I am understimulated.
>
> Maybe. How much caffeine are you drinking?5 cups of tea a day:-) It's my comfort food as well.
We are having a crises with my son Austin and anger management right now. He had a real explosive and scarey episode last night. I'm meeting with his therapist in an hour.
I'm glad your meds are working, e.
> > Your post made me smile, elizabeth, you have a keen sense of humor.
>
> Aww. Thank you. I'm glad to hear that you're smiling -- that's a good sign. :-)It may just be a sign that you are funny:-) But, hey, I'll take that today.< g >
Lorraine
Posted by Lorraine on September 26, 2001, at 10:26:56
In reply to Re: hanging in there » Lorraine, posted by shelliR on September 24, 2001, at 22:58:07
Hi Shelli:
> My therapist and I try to work on things as basic as organization, both in how I live and in how I work.Oh, that wouldn't work for me because I have read about 30 books on organization. I know the principles well enough to teach, but not follow, them. Or I follow them half way (I do have the folders):-) I'm trying to get some structure into my life (i know that this is not your issue--so how quickly I learn?) So one of the things that I want to have is a day where I close projects b/c all i want to do is open them--it's my nature.
> > >I am totally focused on the computer so it doesn't bother me, but when I really look I am appalled.
We have dinner parties occassionally--which means that I have to clean up from time to time. Once a friend who had been here for dinner when things were "neat" came to the house and looked at my office and said "is that what the inside of your mind looks like?" It gave me pause.
> > Your pdoc might be able to make your partial response work. I read his article. It sounds so simple and full of hope. Do they really believe what they write or is it just the need to have a strong thesis without words like "I believe" thrown in to muddy it up.
>
> That's really funny. I think he probably believes what he writes and when things don't work out with someone, it probably breezes right out of his consciousness, so he can keep his theories in tact. Like I think he really didn't anticipate that I would get habituated to the oxy, and he's not sure how to play it yet. Sometimes he's reassuring; other times he sounds like he's quite annoyed that my body didn't do it's job to conform to his plan.I find that whole thing irritating--sort of the "i live in my world with my books, don't you muck it up with your humanity". I think all doctors should be forced to go through a depression caused by depletion of that enzyme for a spell just to "taste" it.
>
> > > Also, did you notice how he dismissed MAIOs and tricyclics because of their side effects. As as there aren't a milllion side effects from the other ADs.To me, it sounded like it wasn't convenient for him to stray from his chosen list that he knows
> > The Ambien is working well for me now.
>
> I know I've tried Ambien but I don't remember what happened--it was a long time ago.I like Ambien a lot. I sleep soundly and refreshingly. When I take it with valium (which I don't anymore), I actually dream. Isn't that nice? But I like to wake up with the sleepy head and roll out of bed with the option of drifting off to sleep again.
I think I'm going to ask my pdoc of ten years to give me a copy of all my files. When I asked her last time, she had her nurse practioner go through all my records and write what meds I had tried, when, how much, and why I went off. I can't find those sheets (surprise, surprise), but I think she missed things anyway, (I mean it was ten years). I'd like to see the whole thing and I want a copy, even if I have to pay. I don't think she can refuse in Maryland unless seeing them would create a danger to myself.
This is a really good idea. I have some long term charts that I am creating for myself based on my review of my files. If you'd like and become serious, I'll send you a copy of the file so you can have a template for yours.
> >
> > > > >And it will be in combination with wellbutrin which will help with the tiredness, if the depression lifts. And the oxy might stay if the AD stops me from having to keep going up.
> > Your oxy seems pretty ambitious about assuming a larger part of your life.I mean it wants to own you by making you ever more dependent. I'm having fun by assuming that the oxy has a will of it's own:-)
> > > > > Have you tried the other MAOs? You had a positive response to one. My pdoc says until you have tried all of the MAOs you haven't tried MAOs--meaning that they are all different.
> > > Well. remember I tried parnate just after you. So there's really just one non-reversible MAOI that I haven't tried.
> > Which one are you thinking of? Marplan? I hadn't compiled a serious list. Somehow I thought there was more on the list than just one or two more.
>
> I think that's all in the US.Oh no, that is scarey b/c the Nardil is giving me no mood support, it is making my hyperventilation worse (hence the Neurontin); it is making me sedated. I drop off a cliff in terms of energy about 8 o'clock (so I'm trying to adjust my times). I'm increasing my dose to 45 mg today. I'll see my pdoc next week and we'll see what we think. I'm not real positive. My best response so far was the (don't laugh) Moclobemide, but the anxiety and loss of sleep made me hyperventilate and wake up unrefreshed. Maybe now I could temper that with what? Ambien for sleep. Anxiety, I don't know. Marplan is supposed to be hard to get (limited manufacture).
> > Are you continuing on the neurontin as you build up the nardil?
Hyperventilating has caused me to use the neurontin during the day.
> > > I don't know if that's a good idea to add the adderal yet; it's probably best if you can to see what the nardil exactly does if you can. Why do you want to add the neurontin now? I guess maybe the waiting period is feeling too hard right now?the waiting period is very trying. i haven't felt this low in a long time. no mood support at all.
> > > > > > >
> > > > I don't understand that. Because you can experience pleasure sometimes, that is a roller coaster? I think of a roller coaster as Bipolar II, which I realize you think you may have, but I don't get the imagine of a roller coaster when you describe your days.OK. Hard to describe but a bit like ricocheting off of events. I don't begrudge the pleasure. I just "buy into" it and start to believe that it is saying something about what is going on with me when it is not. Hence, is it working. Is it not? All becomes much more muddled. I distrust my sense of my own body and mental state. I walk in and say I feel great. The next day, I'm hitting bottom. Do I change my meds? Are they working? Is this just my pattern?
> > > I didn't really understand how bad your ratio was. But then my bads are worse than your bads, and my ratio is better, so the overall result could be close. (I just realized how competitive that sounded. :-) Really, I am just trying to understand. (I always want to understand. It can drive me and others crazy at times.)You aren't driving me crazy, just making me think.
> >
Shelli, have you seriously tried drugs?
> No, only the vicodin and now the oxy.
>
> The life of an addict is not attractive or pleasant. Reality peeks in.
>
> Okay, the plan is : get high, go to France, have fun and spend all my money; when I become poor and an addict, *then* kill myself. But why not use money and drugs in excess first.
>
> However. It's only a plan if I decide to kill myself, and that, as we have discussed, is not an option. So it's more like a perverse fantasy.
> Or black humor.I like black humor. When I was a very young I experimented with enough drugs to know that I do not want anything to do with that way of life.
I'm up to 45 on Nardil now. I'm not optimistic though. We will see. Side effects of hyperventilating are a trial and the lack of mood support does not make this look promising.Lorraine
Posted by Elizabeth on September 26, 2001, at 15:51:13
In reply to Re: more stuff » Elizabeth, posted by Lorraine on September 25, 2001, at 17:04:23
> > I start noticing it around 100 or 110. Often drinking a glass of water will slow it down some, IME.
>
> That's good to know. Maybe hydration is important for this, increasing blood volume to slow the pulse?Exactly.
> I hate condoms. I think it is so sad that your generation didn't have the sort of free abandon with sex that mine had.
Can I ask what you hate about them?
> > > Aren't people on MAOs supposed to avoid antihistamines?
> >
> > No, antihistamines are fine; it's decongestants (e.g., Sudafed) that are a problem (the locally-acting ones like Afrin don't seem to be a problem, though).
>
> OK. I'll have to take note of that. I may need this info later.See, this is the kind of thing I hate: when doctors (or pharmaceutical companies) tell patients to avoid "cough or cold medicine" rather than just telling them which ingredients are dangerous. (The result is that the patient ends up thinking that s/he can't take *any* "cold medicine" -- or takes one, finds out it's okay, and doesn't take the restrictions seriously anymore.)
re Asperger's d/o:
> I read up on it. I know someone whose son was recently diagnosed--although I don't know her well.Do you know her son?
> In my mind it goes like this. Is there a neurotransmitter in the human body that uses this chemical in the absence of addiction? If so, there may be a deficiency.
Sure; there are neuropeptides called endorphins and enkephalins. Drugs don't really do anything new; there's a reason why we have opioid receptors -- because we have an endogenous opioid system.
> I just read an article that said that the incidence of bipolar II among those with atypical depression is 64% so there clearly is a more than chance relationship going here.
Exactly.
> OK. So, what caused this coma? What was this about? (elizabeth, are you stoic? I go for the drama and you go for the understatement< g >)
They never figured out what caused it. I posted about this way back when (sometime in late March, I think) -- it's in the archives. And yes, I don't like to be dramatic or to exaggerate.
> We are having a crises with my son Austin and anger management right now. He had a real explosive and scarey episode last night. I'm meeting with his therapist in an hour.
I hope it goes well. It's bad enough that we have to deal with emotional problems ourselves; having to deal with them in a child must be very difficult (one reason I don't think I'm going to have any children).
-elizabeth
Posted by Lorraine on September 27, 2001, at 10:15:59
In reply to Re: more stuff » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on September 26, 2001, at 15:51:13
Elizabeth:
> > I hate condoms. I think it is so sad that your generation didn't have the sort of free abandon with sex that mine had.
>
> Can I ask what you hate about them?I don't like the way the feel. Maybe they have improved the technology (how hi tech can it be tho?) since I used them (10 years ago).
>
> re Asperger's d/o:
> > I read up on it. I know someone whose son was recently diagnosed--although I don't know her well.
>
> Do you know her son?No.
>
> > In my mind it goes like this. Is there a neurotransmitter in the human body that uses this chemical in the absence of addiction? If so, there may be a deficiency.
>
> Sure; there are neuropeptides called endorphins and enkephalins. Drugs don't really do anything new; there's a reason why we have opioid receptors -- because we have an endogenous opioid system.All the rest of it is just value judgement and as Shelli would say puritanical value judgement at that. Definitely not helpful.
> > We are having a crises with my son Austin and anger management right now. He had a real explosive and scarey episode last night. I'm meeting with his therapist in an hour.
>
> I hope it goes well. It's bad enough that we have to deal with emotional problems ourselves; having to deal with them in a child must be very difficult (one reason I don't think I'm going to have any children).Even with the tough times, I'm glad I had kids and particularly glad I had my son. He has taught me a lot. His therapist said that he thinks we have a bully/victim dynamic going in our household (do you want to guess who the bully is? how about the victim?) Anyway, he said we need to break this pattern and that I need to be less of a victim--which in part means being less reactive to bullying behavior. This last thing--about me being the victim--was pretty distressing to me b/c I do unfortunately see the thread throughout some of my life anyway. So it became more than a realization about the family--it just sort of bounced around inside me like a ping-pong ball setting off lots of difficult feelings. These cognitive therapy types are pretty wierd (based on an n=1). They don't really care about your "petty" wounds. They care about thought patterns that work or don't work. I like this guy for Austin, but he seems a bit military to me--like maybe they forgot to pour the feminine side in him when they set the mold. Anyway, unique experience. The family goes in today for a 2 hour session. It's possible that I would want to see this guy individually--but I guess I would want to have a touchy-feeling therapist on the side to pick up the pieces from some of the realizations.
He believes that Austin does not have a biochemical thing going on b/c his behavior only occurs in the family and not in school or with his friends. But then I know that sometimes we can just hold things together until we are in a safe place like home when things unwind. He views Austin as an alpha male who has learned to bully--which does make sense.
I have a friend who is big and tall and wide whose son started trying to intimidate her physically at around this age. She said you have to grab him by the collar, pull him up from the chair, get right in his face and scream at him letting him know who is boss. When I mentioned this to his therapist, he said yes that would work but you have to play your hands with the cards you are dealt and I am much smaller than my son, who towers over me.
Anyway, I think that I will have Austin tested meanwhile in case there is something physical and not just biological going on.
He said another thing that was interesting to me. He said that we all have two brains--a mature brain and an immature or primitive brain. Austin's mature side is very highly developed (this is true--he is remarkably insightful and bright). His immature side though is very immature--like dealing with a two year old. When Austin is in the immature or primitive mode, reasoning with him is not effective (this is certainly true). Well, perhaps it is all a way of looking at things, but an interesting way.
My Nardil is making me anxious--hyperventilate and also lowering my energy level (or not helping it). I'm taking 22.5 in the am and 15 in the afternoon (3:oo pm). I never fully recover from the pm dose drowsiness and sludge through my evening with no energy and without much mood support. For the hyperventilation, I have been taking Neurontin and increasing it b/c the hyperventilation can be quite bad. So I'm taking 200 mg or Neurontin with my am and pm dose and 600 at night b/4 bed. Yesterday I substituted 1/2 tab of valium for the Neurontin--which knocked me out further so won't be repeated. Does this sound like a pattern that will ultimately yield success to you? It is getting hard to hang in there with this trial. Is is now day 18 on Nardil. I feel pretty good in the morning only then sort of crash around 3 for the rest of the day. My memory is really terrible right now also--like losing my way on the way to the store not once but twice. Anyway, I will see my pdoc next week, but I have always had a fairly fast response to meds. Effexor, being the exception, took 3 weeks for me to feel much better.
I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Lorraine
Posted by shelliR on September 27, 2001, at 20:20:46
In reply to Re: hanging in there » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on September 26, 2001, at 10:26:56
> Hi Shelli:
> > My therapist and I try to work on things as basic as organization, both in how I live and in how I work.
> Oh, that wouldn't work for me because I have read about 30 books on organization. I know the principles well enough to teach, but not follow, them. Or I follow them half way (I do have the folders):-) I'm trying to get some structure into my life (i know that this is not your issue--so how quickly I learn?) So one of the things that I want to have is a day where I close projects b/c all i want to do is open them--it's my nature.Well the things that we've worked on have more to do with organizing my life between work and other. I often feel like I have no other because I am always running to catch up on work. One of the interesting things I discovered is that I have more control over my focus or lack of focus than I had thought. I spent time trying to figure out how I actually spend a whole day only getting doing four simple things. I am more aware now that I let myself drift off in thought, because it is more fun to "free-think" than to stay focused. But if I focus, then I have time to do other things, *guilt-free*. I'll go upstairs to get a ruler, for example, then I'll see the computer, and decided to check messages, then maybe look at PB, etc. So I am working, I suppose, on organization in terms of self-control now, rather than an amorphous "don't know where my time went." I can, sometimes at least, catch myself go off track in thought, and make a conscious decision to come back (even when I don't want to). And I am trying much harder to stick to a work plan each day.
>
>
> We have dinner parties occassionally--which means that I have to clean up from time to time. Once a friend who had been here for dinner when things were "neat" came to the house and looked at my office and said "is that what the inside of your mind looks like?" It gave me pause.I wouldn't know how to take that either. So I suppose I'd end up deciding it was a compliment. < g >
>
>
Re oxy:
> I mean it wants to own you by making you ever more dependent. I'm having fun by assuming that the oxy has a will of it's own:-)Umm, dependent. Well I actually had a productive 10 minutes with my pdoc today. I found out by accident last night that I don't wake up depressed if I add a third dose of oxy. (Sort of what everyone's been telling me, and I felt--rebound depression.) I put out my morning pills and mistakingly took them with my hs meds! I told him and he said yes, he realized that even for depression (along with other types of pain), I should be taking it three times a day. I said, thanks a lot (sarcasticly), I had been telling him this for a while. He admited that he was fairly new to the use of oxy for depression and he had been working with a pain specialist. That made me feel very good. (And sort of like a guinea pig). But definitely more good than pig, because I like the combination of a psychopharmacologist and a pain specialist. And as far as habituation, "they" think that sort of like pain, when I get to the right dose of oxy, I'll settle in and not need to go up. And I'm willing to take that chance.
So back to dependent: I do think that this pdoc had always thought that oxy would be a major part of my cocktail, along with an anti-depressant and a stimulent. It was never in the game plan to use oxy temporarily. At least for him it wasn't. I was the one who was thinking that the oxy would be a smaller part, or that the oxy was just there to get me through until another combo worked. But I also knew that I didn't have a lot of choices left--I had pretty much run out of options when I tried selegiline. I guess I was thinking that selegiline would take on the bigger role, but when that and parnate fell out, I wasn't left with a lot of choices, so that's why I decided to go back on nardil. At least to have some stabilization for the oxy. And wellbutrin has turned out to be the stimulent, instead of a "real" stimulent. One other good thing is that since this other doctor is in the picture, it doesn't leave me totally and fully dependent on working with my current pdoc, if I decide at some point I don't want to.
So if my dose is stablilized, it's really not different to me than using any other drug, and probably a lot better in terms of side effects than most.
>> > I think that's all in the US.
> Oh no, that is scarey b/c the Nardil is giving me no mood support, it is making my hyperventilation worse (hence the Neurontin); it is making me sedated. I drop off a cliff in terms of energy about 8 o'clock (so I'm trying to adjust my times). I'm increasing my dose to 45 mg today. I'll see my pdoc next week and we'll see what we think. I'm not real positive. My best response so far was the (don't laugh) Moclobemide, but the anxiety and loss of sleep made me hyperventilate and wake up unrefreshed. Maybe now I could temper that with what? Ambien for sleep. Anxiety, I don't know. Marplan is supposed to be hard to get (limited manufacture).Are you sure it's the nardil that is making you hyperventilate. That would mean it was activating and sedating. Were you on any meds during which time hyperventilation was not an issue? I am assuming that hyperventilating is overbreathing because of anxiety? When I hyperventitate, or get very spacy, I take valium. But with valium, you also do need to take something stimulating or it will knock you out.
Lorraine, I really don't know what to say. I can only say for me that it took a full five weeks of 45mg, and it changed my life. You haven't even done one week at 45mg. I also have to say that nardil alone wasn't enough. I also used a benzo throughout my whole adult life, sometimes more, sometimes none. It allowed me more or less to lead a normal life. And if I could have tolerated a stimulent, I would have been on that also.
I wish you could be easier on yourself for the trials. Let yourself take an early afternoon (before the kids come home) nap. Sometimes just a half hour will do it. Then if the nardil works, you will find the right stimulent, and fatigue will be less of a factor. I don't think I can convince you to take a benzo for hyperventilation and anxiety, if you are really against it.
It's strange. You are coming to terms with having a disease, and I try to ignore my disease as much as possible by medicating it in any way possible, not to play with drugs, just to feel my "disease" as little as possible. When I first started dance class I couldn't do it unless I took valium. After a while, I got a dance scholarship and wasn't needing the valium. So I used it to get by until I could get by on my own. And I never felt guilty; I always felt so grateful that it was there to take.
>But going back to the nardil, I wish I could say, if you hang in there it will work. I believe that it has an excellent chance of working, based on your diagnosis, and based on the number of people who hav ehad success with it. When I tried it, there wasn't a lot of everything else, so after determining that I could not take tricylics, it was my first AD. And the rap was that it was supposed to work in three weeks. So I literally read the page in a book that said it may take up to six weeks for it to work every single day, at least once. It was my bible. (Nathan Klein, "From Sad to Glad", little paperback, I'm sure out of print).
No one, in or out of the hospital at that time even suggested MAOIs to me, and by absolute luck, I turned on PBS at my parents house, right after getting out of the hospital at age 24 and he was being interviewed.How long did it take for the Moclobemide to kick in? Also what was your experience with effexor? Is that an AD you would consider going back to?
> Shelli, have you seriously tried drugs?
> > No, only the vicodin and now the oxy.
> > The life of an addict is not attractive or pleasant. Reality peeks in.
> > Okay, the plan is : get high, go to France, have fun and spend all my money; when I become poor and an addict, *then* kill myself. But why not use money and drugs in excess first.
> > However. It's only a plan if I decide to kill myself, and that, as we have discussed, is not an option. So it's more like a perverse fantasy.
> > Or black humor.
> I like black humor. When I was a very young I experimented with enough drugs to know that I do not want anything to do with that way of life.
>
I also played a little with drugs in college. I tripped twice and have never been sorry, although I would never take the risk again. I was really talking about being in France, stoned with a form of codeine. Nothing heavier. Letting myself be high because I wouldn't have work to do, and not caring if I became addicted or habituated, and because the French Countryside is so beautiful.
Re your son:
> He said another thing that was interesting to me. He said that we all have two brains--a mature brain and an immature or primitive brain. Austin's mature side is very highly
developed (this is true--he is remarkably insightful and bright). His immature side though is very immature--like dealing with a two year old. When Austin is in the immature or primitive mode, reasoning with him is not effective (this is certainly true). Well, perhaps it is all a way of looking at things, but an interesting way.That is very much how I have seen myself. I haven't divided it into two brains, but definitely two parts of myself, and that's the way my therapists have seen me also. One very very young emotionally, the unmothered part for me, extremely vulnerable and aching and not at all strong. The part that has hurt myself, and unravels almost totally. And the very adult, very perceptive even as a young child, very smart in terms of verbalization and understanding, and always with an incredible amount of integrity. I think to some extent everyone has both mature and immature parts, but for some, like your son, it is the great difference that makes it so noticable. Sort of like having a huge scatter in an IQ test. I had a great scatter in living.
I'm so sorry that you are having a hard time, and are becoming scared. I wish I could help. I have finally had two good days in a row, but as you know, I very understand very well how hard it is to go through the bad times, not knowing.Shelli
Posted by Lorraine on September 28, 2001, at 17:34:23
In reply to Re: hanging in there » Lorraine, posted by shelliR on September 27, 2001, at 20:20:46
Hi Shelli:
> > > Well the things that we've worked on have more to do with organizing my life between work and other. And I am trying much harder to stick to a work plan each day.
This is so positive, Shelli. I have been working with an activity log of sorts, trying to plan the work, work the plan--it does keep me moving. And then trying to break up the days into different tasks. Returning calls, running errands, support groups, home maintenance stuff, creative stuff, cleaning desk. I'm even trying to limit the time that I spend thinking re depression to a set time.
> > > I put out my morning pills and mistakingly took them with my hs meds! I told him and he said yes, he realized that even for depression (along with other types of pain), I should be taking it three times a day.Very cool! This will make a big difference for you.
> > >He admited that he was fairly new to the use of oxy for depression and he had been working with a pain specialist.I like the admitted part. Big step for him. I'm hoping you gave him lots of positive reinforcement. Also great to know that he is working with a pain specialist and that they believe your dosage is a "water seeks its own level" sort of thing. What a blast of positive news, Shelli. I know you have been worried about the role oxy would assume. It is nice to know that his intention was for it to assume a fairly large role and sit there as a hinge piece. This is much better than as a crutch to help you get through and it takes a lot of pressure off your other meds in terms of how much work they have to do. Good stuff.
> > >It doesn't leave me totally and fully dependent on working with my current pdoc, if I decide at some point I don't want to.Have you met the other doctor? Would he be comfortable working with you without your pdoc or substituting in another pdoc?
> > > Are you sure it's the nardil that is making you hyperventilate. That would mean it was activating and sedating.
Nardil is wierd. I'm not sure what it is in terms of activating/sedating. The only med that I used that I think made my hyperventilating go away was Adderal. When I was on Adderal and Neurontin alone during a washout. I also didn't hyperventilate when I was between meds (med free) this time (the 5 days between the parnate termination and the nardil beginning).
> > >When I hyperventitate, or get very spacy, I take valium. But with valium, you also do need to take something stimulating or it will knock you out.
OK, that is a really useful piece of info for me and I suspect that this is where I may end up. Given my last experience with Adderal the day after terminating Parnate (hypertensive crises), I'm leary of adding it again but may end up there.
>
> Lorraine, I really don't know what to say. I can only say for me that it took a full five weeks of 45mg, and it changed my life. You haven't even done one week at 45mg. I also have to say that nardil alone wasn't enough. I also used a benzo throughout my whole adult life, sometimes more, sometimes none. It allowed me more or less to lead a normal life. And if I could have tolerated a stimulent, I would have been on that also.I think your attitude toward all of this is more mature than mine actually. I'm fighting myself in addition to my depression. I've also been reluctant to add things to the mix until I have a better lay of the land. What with the Nardil, the Neurontin, my new HRT and so forth, it is hard to figure out what is causing what.
> > > I wish you could be easier on yourself for the trials. Let yourself take an early afternoon (before the kids come home) nap. Sometimes just a half hour will do it. Then if the nardil works, you will find the right stimulent, and fatigue will be less of a factor. I don't think I can convince you to take a benzo for hyperventilation and anxiety, if you are really against it.
I don't know Shelli. I'm really trying to stay on the Nardil to give it time to work. You are right I may end up with a cocktail that is Nardil, neurontin, stimulant and benzo. I do appreciate your words of encouragement--it does help stop me from just jumping off a train that may be heading for the right destination.
>
> > > It's strange. You are coming to terms with having a disease, and I try to ignore my disease as much as possible by medicating it in any way possible, not to play with drugs, just to feel my "disease" as little as possible. When I first started dance class I couldn't do it unless I took valium. After a while, I got a dance scholarship and wasn't needing the valium. So I used it to get by until I could get by on my own. And I never felt guilty; I always felt so grateful that it was there to take.You are much more evolved on this. Maybe you have been dealing with the depression longer and have already come to terms with some of the things that I am struggling with. Although I do feel like I am having some success with my struggles. It's just that I never really accepted the fact that it was a long term chronic condition and then the fact that I might not be able to predict my next day. The problem has been that for the past 18 mos or so I have been holding my breath waiting for a drug to work--putting my life on hold. I need to live a bit more than that.
>
> > > But going back to the nardil, I wish I could say, if you hang in there it will work.I'm going to try to hang with it for a while...
>
> How long did it take for the Moclobemide to kick in?Day 1 i felt positive effects and day 5 I was pretty much there
> > >Also what was your experience with effexor?
Three weeks.
Is that an AD you would consider going back to?
I tried. It didn't work.
> > > Re your son:
> > He said another thing that was interesting to me. He said that we all have two brains--a mature brain and an immature or primitive brain. Austin's mature side is very highly
> developed (this is true--he is remarkably insightful and bright). His immature side though is very immature--like dealing with a two year old. When Austin is in the immature or primitive mode, reasoning with him is not effective (this is certainly true). Well, perhaps it is all a way of looking at things, but an interesting way.
>
> That is very much how I have seen myself. I haven't divided it into two brains, but definitely two parts of myself, and that's the way my therapists have seen me also. One very very young emotionally, the unmothered part for me, extremely vulnerable and aching and not at all strong. The part that has hurt myself, and unravels almost totally. And the very adult, very perceptive even as a young child, very smart in terms of verbalization and understanding, and always with an incredible amount of integrity. I think to some extent everyone has both mature and immature parts, but for some, like your son, it is the great difference that makes it so noticable. Sort of like having a huge scatter in an IQ test. I had a great scatter in living.That's a good way of putting it Shelli.
> > > I'm so sorry that you are having a hard time, and are becoming scared. I wish I could help.
You are.
I have finally had two good days in a row...
Woohoo! Let the good times roll!
Lorraine
Posted by shelliR on September 29, 2001, at 20:18:11
In reply to Re: hanging in there » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on September 28, 2001, at 17:34:23
Hi Lorraine.
> > > > I put out my morning pills and mistakingly took them with my hs meds! I told him and he said yes, he realized that even for depression (along with other types of pain), I should be taking it three times a day.
> Very cool! This will make a big difference for you.
I think it will, only for the last two days I have lay down, setting my clock for a 30minute nap, and woken up three hours later. I have been very very tired. I'm not sure why, whether the oxy at night is affecting the quality of my sleep. All the sudden I went from very stimulated on the oxy and wellbutrin to very sleepy. But I'm not going to worry about it yet, although certainly I can't live this way. Sometimes I am like this premenstrually, but I can't figure out my cycle at all now, to see if it's related.>
>
> > > >He admited that he was fairly new to the use of oxy for depression and he had been working with a pain specialist.
> I like the admitted part. Big step for him. I'm hoping you gave him lots of positive reinforcement. Also great to know that he is working with a pain specialist and that they believe your dosage is a "water seeks its own level" sort of thing. What a blast of positive news, Shelli. I know you have been worried about the role oxy would assume. It is nice to know that his intention was for it to assume a fairly large role and sit there as a hinge piece. This is much better than as a crutch to help you get through and it takes a lot of pressure off your other meds in terms of how much work they have to do. Good stuff.I am really excited. Probably I didn't reinforce him enough :-) , but I did forgive him! I feel good having two doctors working with me (even if I only see one). The best thing is that I don't feel that I am in so much pain that I must die for an hour in the morning and think if I got habituated to the oxy, this is how my whole day would be. Because it probably would not be as bad as the rebound was making me feel in the morning. Oh, and I am up to 45 mg of nardil (well, I'm alternating every other day with 30mg, instead of splitting pills).
> >It doesn't leave me totally and fully dependent on working with my current pdoc, if I decide at some point I don't want to.
> Have you met the other doctor? Would he be comfortable working with you without your pdoc or substituting in another pdoc?He told me the other doctor's name, but I already forget. And I'll have to wait a bit to work it into a conversation so I can get it there again (without hurting my pdoc's feelings). I have no idea if I ever could work with the other guy, he's not a psychiatrist, I gather. I think it's more this thing that stays in my head as a possibility if I ever have any questions, or concerns that my pdoc is not able to address or if my pdoc and I break up. So maybe I don't want to know anything negative, like no he wouldn't work with my next pdoc around narcotics. Sometimes it is better to live with illusions until it is necessary to figure out the reality. Now when my pdoc is good (as the saying goes), he is very very good, and when he is bad....... I also think it is in my best interest to take great care with his ego. He keeps asking me what number I am at in the depression scale. (1 being the most depression). I never answer. This time he said 5 to 6, and I said yes. I have to figure out this scale thing. What would it mean for *me* to be at 10. (I also want to write back to Zo, because she bought up happiness related to hypomanic, sort of when is it hypomania instead of a 10 or 10 plus. For example if it doesn't involve anything concrete, like spending money, but she is painting really well and really happily. Do you stop yourself to ask: , "Is this hypomania?". I have had absolutely no signs of hypomania ever, but I'm asking questions like could I be at a 10 and not need therapy? What does a ten feel like?
If my the physical elements of my depression really go away, then how much more therapy will I need? I talked some with my therapist about this on Thursday and we also used EMDR to start to process how much of my life I have missed. I am so so sad, under the depression. I am not ready to be my age. I want those years back. Things that I was working on two years ago when everything (with the exception of survival and work came to a halt.) But there were lots of years lost before that because of my self-image, because of my dissociation, etc. So, now, if I depression is sad, and I have mourned enough, what is next in my life. Am I up to the challenge of looking for an emotiona/sexual relationship, and do I really think I have the potential to love someone fully. I don't know, and I'm not even sure I want to go through all the effort.
But I must feel very encouraged by my now three good days in a row ( :-) , to even be thinking what comes next.
And there's a photo meeting that I actually want to go to next week about imaging off the computer. This is where I am headed so I think there will be lots of people there that I can learn from, specifically about paper and inks that are available. I already have my system up and running, finally. I met one guy in the photo supply store last month who has converted all his stuff from darkroom to computer and he did give me his number. I never got around to calling, but I think he will be at the meeting. Plus it's in the studio of a commercial photographer, a women who I've never met but have respected her work for years. She's highly published in Washington magazines. (When you're a photographer, you get in the habit of always looking for credits). She changed her last name to Z very early; her father is a well-known political figure and she didn't want to be identified with him in her work. So I 'm sort of excited to meet her.>
> > > > Are you sure it's the nardil that is making you hyperventilate. That would mean it was activating and sedating.
> Nardil is wierd. I'm not sure what it is in terms of activating/sedating. The only med that I used that I think made my hyperventilating go away was Adderal. When I was on Adderal and Neurontin alone during a washout. I also didn't hyperventilate when I was between meds (med free) this time (the 5 days between the parnate termination and the nardil beginning).
>Well if you take the neurotin and adderal, will you be able to tell when the nardil kicks in? Because that is probably an easier option for you, to take that route, rather than the purity route. Actually it is the way my doctor wanted to handle things in the hospital and I resisted, then gave in after one day. I wanted to try selegiline for a while before I added the oxy, because I really did feel that the oxy made me feel so good, that I wouldn't be able to see if the selegiline was working. But my pain was too great, and we decided that I could always take away the oxy, in other words I guess it would be called the subtraction method, rather than the addition method.
> OK, that is a really useful piece of info for me and I suspect that this is where I may end up. Given my last experience with Adderal the day after terminating Parnate (hypertensive crises), I'm leary of adding it again but may end up there.
I've heard that there are a lot less interactions with nardil and other meds vs. parnate and other meds. Is adderal time release? If so, is it a capsule that can be split? Is it a capsule and a pill? JUST KIDDING. See we already have a history :-)
> > Lorraine, I really don't know what to say. I can only say for me that it took a full five weeks of 45mg, and it changed my life. You haven't even done one week at 45mg. I also have to say that nardil alone wasn't enough. I also used a benzo throughout my whole adult life, sometimes more, sometimes none. It allowed me more or less to lead a normal life. And if I could have tolerated a stimulent, I would have been on that also.
> I think your attitude toward all of this is more mature than mine actually. I'm fighting myself in addition to my depression. I've also been reluctant to add things to the mix until I have a better lay of the land. What with the Nardil, the Neurontin, my new HRT and so forth, it is hard to figure out what is causing what.That’s why I mentioned subtraction above. That really may be easier. easier = better.
>
You are much more evolved on this. Maybe you have been dealing with the depression longer and have already come to terms with some of the things that I am struggling with.Well, yes, I have been depressed since my early twenties and if I had not put it in some perspective, my life would have been unbearable. I have had the image of myself as fucked up, much more than depressed until two years ago. Lots of stuff to work on outside the depression which was managed by nardil.
Although I do feel like I am having some success with my struggles. It's just that I never really accepted the fact that it was a long term chronic condition and then the fact that I might not be able to predict my next day. The problem has been that for the past 18 mos or so I have been holding my breath waiting for a drug to work--putting my life on hold. I need to live a bit more than that.
When you find the right drug, then you will naturally put it into perspective. I really never thought about my depression, only premenstrually. It’s sort of like you’re actually not depressed when meds take away the depression. Especially ADs. I took nardil once a day like a vitamin for depression and that was it.
>
>
> >
> > How long did it take for the Moclobemide to kick in?
> Day 1 i felt positive effects and day 5 I was pretty much thereWhat is your next plan, if nardil doesn’t kick in. I know that one plan would be to go back to moclobernide with adjuncts, but is that next? I know you always have a next plan.
> > > >Also what was your experience with effexor?
> Three weeks.
ÿ Is that an AD you would consider going back to?
ÿ I tried. It didn't work.You mean you took effexor successfully once and when you retried it, it didn’t work?
>
> I have finally had two good days in a row...
Woohoo! Let the good times roll!
Three now. (Today though I’m very spacey, but not depressed)Well, you have your little niche when your depression goes away. It’s not like you have to start from scratch.
I remember that you said that you had quit work to be home with your kids, because that was something you had missed. Had you thought you’d stay home until the kids were a certain age, or just left it open-ended?Shelli
Posted by Elizabeth on October 1, 2001, at 13:20:33
In reply to Re: more stuff » Elizabeth, posted by Lorraine on September 27, 2001, at 10:15:59
> > > I hate condoms. I think it is so sad that your generation didn't have the sort of free abandon with sex that mine had.
Among people my age there is a saying: "I don't want cheap sex. I want *free* sex."
> > Can I ask what you hate about them?
>
> I don't like the way the feel. Maybe they have improved the technology (how hi tech can it be tho?) since I used them (10 years ago).I don't know about that. They do have some now that are supposed to be quite thin but also strong. I think that _Consumer Reports_ even investigated different brands. < g > But in what way do they feel different to you? I'd expect a man to have an opinion, but most women I've talked to about the subject (surprisingly many) don't seem to care, so they insist on using condoms for safety reasons (mostly -- keep in mind, I'm at the tail-end of "gen-x" so these are people who don't remember much of the seventies or anything of the sixties). Some people just count on the pill and assume that their [allegedly] monogamous partners are "clean," but I wouldn't be willing to take that risk except under very unusual circumstances. (Anyway, I had a depressive relapse closely coinciding with trying the pill, which mostly subsided when I stopped taking the damned hormones, so I'm not keen on the idea of women just being expected to use it and men having to responsibility whatsoever for BC.)
> > Sure; there are neuropeptides called endorphins and enkephalins. Drugs don't really do anything new; there's a reason why we have opioid receptors -- because we have an endogenous opioid system.
>
> All the rest of it is just value judgement and as Shelli would say puritanical value judgement at that. Definitely not helpful.Well, the "reason" I gave is only the tip of the iceberg, of course. The opioid receptor was (I think) the first one to be discovered, and a while back there was research into "enkephalinase inhibitors" (which would work like MAOIs only on endogenous opioids instead of monoamines) which my s.o. was involved with. The problem turned out to be that there was no such thing as "enkephalinase." < g > (That is, there were enzymes that catalysed the breakdown of enkephalins, but these were general neuropeptide-ases, which would be much dirtier than anything we'd want to use on ourselves.)
> These cognitive therapy types are pretty wierd (based on an n=1). They don't really care about your "petty" wounds. They care about thought patterns that work or don't work.
I have a much higher n, and I agree.
> It's possible that I would want to see this guy individually--but I guess I would want to have a touchy-feeling therapist on the side to pick up the pieces from some of the realizations.
I can't deal with the touchy-feely types, myself. They nauseate me.
> He believes that Austin does not have a biochemical thing going on b/c his behavior only occurs in the family and not in school or with his friends. But then I know that sometimes we can just hold things together until we are in a safe place like home when things unwind.
I agree. My guess is that he knows little or nothing about the endogenous side of things (or he denies it because he sees it as a threat to him professionally), and he's making assumptions based on what boil down to old wives' tales. There are some kids who have problems that are exaggerated at school, too. Either way, it doesn't mean that it's "just behavioural" (an absurdity in any case).
> He views Austin as an alpha male who has learned to bully--which does make sense.
Oh jeez, here come the gender stereotypes.
> When I mentioned this to his therapist, he said yes that would work but you have to play your hands with the cards you are dealt and I am much smaller than my son, who towers over me.
I don't think you've mentioned his age. ?
> Anyway, I think that I will have Austin tested meanwhile in case there is something physical and not just biological going on.
What kind of tests do you expect will be helpful?
(I've gotten pretty cynical about such tests, especially in the last couple of weeks, after a battery of various tests failed to identify anything that might account for what a number of different doctors, including several neurologists and psychiatrists, feel was almost certainly a complex partial seizure.)
> He said another thing that was interesting to me. He said that we all have two brains--a mature brain and an immature or primitive brain.
I wouldn't put it that way, but yes, you could say that. The "lower brain" is very old, even reptiles have it. It controls emotions and other basic functions. The neocortex, unique to humans, is thought to be involved in our apparently unique facility with language, and probably a lot of other stuff.
> Austin's mature side is very highly developed (this is true--he is remarkably insightful and bright). His immature side though is very immature--like dealing with a two year old.
"When he was good he was very, very good, but when he was bad he was horrid?"
(I should be one to talk. My boyfriend said that talking to me in my (putatively postictal) confusional state was like trying to talk to a caveman or something. I got a real kick out of that.)
> When Austin is in the immature or primitive mode, reasoning with him is not effective (this is certainly true).
In spite of everything, our emotions can still overcome our capacity for reason. One has to understand this in order to have a feel for what mental illness is (IMO).
> My Nardil is making me anxious--hyperventilate and also lowering my energy level (or not helping it). I'm taking 22.5 in the am and 15 in the afternoon (3:oo pm).
Well that's good, you're getting up into the might-possibly-be-effective range. Try to make at least 45 mg/day a target (not necessarily a final target, since I think most people need at least 60, but a target where you should expect to be getting some benefit out of it).
> I never fully recover from the pm dose drowsiness and sludge through my evening with no energy and without much mood support.
I'm not sure if that's a result of the PM dose or if it's part of the disruptive effect that phenelzine has on circadian rhythms. I had nighttime insomnia and afternoon fatigue no matter how I arranged my doses.
> For the hyperventilation, I have been taking Neurontin and increasing it b/c the hyperventilation can be quite bad. So I'm taking 200 mg or Neurontin with my am and pm dose and 600 at night b/4 bed. Yesterday I substituted 1/2 tab of valium for the Neurontin--which knocked me out further so won't be repeated.
You know, the first time I took Valium (5 mg) it knocked me on my *ss too. Everafter, it has been completely nonsedating, even when I tried as much as 40 mg in a single dose. I guess my brain is pretty adaptive (a mixed blessing).
> Does this sound like a pattern that will ultimately yield success to you?
I don't presume to know such things. But I hope it will.
> It is getting hard to hang in there with this trial. Is is now day 18 on Nardil.
How many days have you been taking >30 mg?
> I feel pretty good in the morning only then sort of crash around 3 for the rest of the day.
Yeah, that's common with Nardil, the afternoon nod. I wonder if Provigil or the like would help. (If you do try it, be cautious, but I feel confident in saying it's definitely safer than amphetamine-like stimulants.)
> My memory is really terrible right now also--like losing my way on the way to the store not once but twice.
Hmm...do you think that's a problem with memory, or attentiveness?
> Anyway, I will see my pdoc next week, but I have always had a fairly fast response to meds. Effexor, being the exception, took 3 weeks for me to feel much better.
But it worked -- why did you switch?
> I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Well, you've got 'em. Hope they're of more help to you than they have been to me.
-elizabeth
Posted by Lorraine on October 2, 2001, at 10:00:41
In reply to Re: hanging in there » Lorraine, posted by shelliR on September 29, 2001, at 20:18:11
Hello Shelli:
> > > I think it will, only for the last two days I have lay down, setting my clock for a 30minute nap, and woken up three hours later. I have been very very tired. I'm not sure why, whether the oxy at night is affecting the quality of my sleep. All the sudden I went from very stimulated on the oxy and wellbutrin to very sleepy. But I'm not going to worry about it yet, although certainly I can't live this way. Sometimes I am like this premenstrually, but I can't figure out my cycle at all now, to see if it's related.
Maybe with the increase in oxy you need to increase the Wellbutrin?
> > > >Oh, and I am up to 45 mg of nardil (well, I'm alternating every other day with 30mg, instead of splitting pills).What does this mean? 60 mg one day and 30 the other? Any reason for not splitting? I'm at 45 with splitting.
> > > He told me the other doctor's name, but I already forget. And I'll have to wait a bit to work it into a conversation so I can get it there again (without hurting my pdoc's feelings).
Don't you hate that? Pay attention to these things, shelli! I have the suspicion that oxy and other opiates are being used with fms patients, who frequently (always) have depression as well as tender points and that this is how its use is spreading.
>
> If my the physical elements of my depression really go away, then how much more therapy will I need? I talked some with my therapist about this on Thursday and we also used EMDR to start to process how much of my life I have missed. I am so so sad, under the depression. I am not ready to be my age. I want those years back. Things that I was working on two years ago when everything (with the exception of survival and work came to a halt.) But there were lots of years lost before that because of my self-image, because of my dissociation, etc. So, now, if I depression is sad, and I have mourned enough, what is next in my life. Am I up to the challenge of looking for an emotiona/sexual relationship, and do I really think I have the potential to love someone fully. I don't know, and I'm not even sure I want to go through all the effort.When we are depressed we can make up issues--really just attach the feelings to events with self talk. If this is the case then the need for talk therapy falls by the wayside. But other people have real issues to work through and those stay with us "in sickness and in health" until we work them through with talk therapy or otherwise. Your's sound like the latter. But maybe things will move more quickly. The can I love stuff though is probably going to be resolved experientially (although you may need a coach along side). When I first got involved with my husband, I went into therapy because I knew this was a good thing and I didn't want to screw it up--the urge to push him away was pretty overwhelming, but I was healthy enough to distrust the feeling.
> > >I met one guy in the photo supply store last month who has converted all his stuff from darkroom to computer and he did give me his number. I never got around to calling, but I think he will be at the meeting. Plus it's in the studio of a commercial photographer, a women who I've never met but have respected her work for years. She's highly published in Washington magazines. (When you're a photographer, you get in the habit of always looking for credits). She changed her last name to Z very early; her father is a well-known political figure and she didn't want to be identified with him in her work. So I 'm sort of excited to meet her.Embracing the future instead of living in the wreckage of your future--sure sounds like your mood is in the right place.
> > > Well if you take the neurotin and adderal, will you be able to tell when the nardil kicks in? Because that is probably an easier option for you, to take that route, rather than the purity route. Actually it is the way my doctor wanted to handle things in the hospital and I resisted, then gave in after one day. I wanted to try selegiline for a while before I added the oxy, because I really did feel that the oxy made me feel so good, that I wouldn't be able to see if the selegiline was working. But my pain was too great, and we decided that I could always take away the oxy, in other words I guess it would be called the subtraction method, rather than the addition method.I'm a believer in the subtraction method too. I'm so sorry I'm off the selegiline in a way. I loved what it did cognitively for me. Really felt like I was back to my old self in term of being able to think. I read some of my posts from back then, it shows.
> > > I've heard that there are a lot less interactions with nardil and other meds vs. parnate and other meds. Is adderal time release? If so, is it a capsule that can be split? Is it a capsule and a pill? JUST KIDDING. See we already have a history :-)
And, you're funny...Well I am taking my second dose of Nardil at 4 pm and if I have a dinner party at 5 pm because otherwise I crash. I don't understand you or elizabeth with this steady state stuff and "it doesn't matter when you take your dose"--it matters a great deal to me. I really feel the doses kick in and then I feel myself crash or come down off the dose--in the evening, it's like coming down off an amphetamine.
>
> > > Lorraine, I really don't know what to say. I can only say for me that it took a full five weeks of 45mg, and it changed my life. You haven't even done one week at 45mg.I didn't know there was a "whining" license competancy requirement:-)
> > > I also have to say that nardil alone wasn't enough. I also used a benzo throughout my whole adult life, sometimes more, sometimes none. It allowed me more or less to lead a normal life. And if I could have tolerated a stimulent, I would have been on that also.
I'm being difficult with this, I know. The valium I could take at night (b/4 bed) and it actually might work throughout the day (I know it shouldn't with half lives and so on but I think it might have when I was taking it to sleep). But I also think I felt sexual impairment on it--which, by the way, I think Neurontin is also contributing to. When I was on Nardil alone, surprisingly, I had no impairment so I actually felt things normally for a week or so. I'm reluctant to try Klonopin (??) b/c I have heard it has some sexual impairment plus I have also heard that while it helps with anxiety it can actually worsen depression. I'm also very sensitive to cognitive impairment caused by these drugs.
Speaking of cognitive impairment, I have been in two accidents (very minor--backed into a parked car and solidly tapped the car ahead of me at a stop light). This plus losing some ability to concentrate. It's funny the accident where I hit the car at the stop light, it was actually as though I was "gone" for a moment. Then the other day, I had what I am convinced was a "smell" hallucination. In Beverly Hills on Rodeo, when I went to get into my parked car, I smelled marijuana very strongly. I looked around (it's not THAT uncommon in Beverly Hills after all) and saw no parked car with occupants, no car on the road that would explain the smell and no people in site. It was so odd that I actually stood there for about 3 minutes trying to figure out if there was a diner or restaurant that might be emitting exhaust that smelled like mj. Plus I am getting electric tingles on my arms or legs. Anyway, I think this may be temporal lobe seizure like stuff. I'm going to ask my pdoc. I'm wondering if Nardil might increase seizure like activity. I'm also wondering if I should add a different anticonvulsant.
> > > That’s why I mentioned subtraction above. That really may be easier. easier = better.Yes. I just need to move on this stuff I think. I am getting some mood support now I believe.
> > >I have had the image of myself as fucked up, much more than depressed until two years ago. Lots of stuff to work on outside the depression which was managed by nardil.I had this image of myself as super-competent b/4 my depression. It's all nonsense. It's like we collect our moods roll them into a ball and call it "self".
>
> > > When you find the right drug, then you will naturally put it into perspective.
I know this is true, but I also know that I may not find the right drug and that I still need to be able to live a life to my fullest capability.> > > What is your next plan, if nardil doesn’t kick in. I know that one plan would be to go back to moclobernide with adjuncts, but is that next? I know you always have a next plan.
I'm going to give the Nardil some more time and work on the anxiety and anticonvulsant side of the equation for right now.
What was atarax like?
You mean you took effexor successfully once and when you retried it, it didn’t work?
Precisely. Ain't that a b****?
> > > I remember that you said that you had quit work to be home with your kids, because that was something you had missed. Had you thought you’d stay home until the kids were a certain age, or just left it open-ended?I'm not sure what I'm doing with this. I don't think I can 9-5 anymore or assume my old 12 hour days. I don't think that I have the ability to withstand stress the way I used to. So I would need to do some sort of "home" work which I could transition into slowly.
Shelli, I'm hoping you are progressing on your meds and feeling better, less sleepy. Let me know and let me know about that trade group meeting.
Lorraine
Posted by Lorraine on October 2, 2001, at 14:14:34
In reply to Re: more stuff » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on October 1, 2001, at 13:20:33
Elizabeth:
[re condoms] > > > > But in what way do they feel different to you? I'd expect a man to have an opinion, but most women I've talked to about the subject (surprisingly many) don't seem to care,
Take your left hand and wrap it around the index finger on your right hand. Now put on a thin latex glove and do the same thing. Do you feel the difference? That's as close as I can get to describing it.
> > >they insist on using condoms for safety reasons (mostly -- keep in mind, I'm at the tail-end of "gen-x" so these are people who don't remember much of the seventies or anything of the sixties).
These are compelling reasons. I have residual STDs from the sixies that effect my life (please don't ask for details). Also the concept of responsibility is great. But if you get into a long term committed relationship and are choosing contraception, my hunch is that the decision gets based on how much the contraception interferes with sex. I was on the pill for at least 15 years, then used an IUD, then my husband got a vasectomy. The pill didn't bother me, but my doctor wanted me off it when I reached a certain age so I used the IUD. I was very resistant to the idea of using an IUD--I had endometriosis and it isn't really recommend for people who have painful periods--but I found that the IUD was absolutely great. I had it in for 7 years, then renewed for another 5 or so.
> > > Sure; there are neuropeptides called endorphins and enkephalins. Drugs don't really do anything new; there's a reason why we have opioid receptors -- because we have an endogenous opioid system. Well, the "reason" I gave is only the tip of the iceberg, of course. The opioid receptor was (I think) the first one to be discovered, and a while back there was research into "enkephalinase inhibitors" (which would work like MAOIs only on endogenous opioids instead of monoamines) which my s.o. was involved with. The problem turned out to be that there was no such thing as "enkephalinase." < g >This is too funny. But is further demonstrated by the fact that the active ingredient in an antidepressant my not be the obvious but rather the metabolites. Bottom line--we don't have a clue.
> > > It's possible that I would want to see this guy individually--but I guess I would want to have a touchy-feeling therapist on the side to pick up the pieces from some of the realizations.
>
> I can't deal with the touchy-feely types, myself. They nauseate me.Man, you are really one tough nut, aren't you< vbg >?
>
> > He believes that Austin does not have a biochemical thing going on b/c his behavior only occurs in the family and not in school or with his friends. But then I know that sometimes we can just hold things together until we are in a safe place like home when things unwind.
>
> I agree. My guess is that he knows little or nothing about the endogenous side of things (or he denies it because he sees it as a threat to him professionally), and he's making assumptions based on what boil down to old wives' tales.You may ber right, but during our initial consultation he did say that young boys (13) with aggression issues sometime have a deficiency in serotonin and too much testosterone aggravates the issue. After reading fairly extensively on the issue, it looks like they end up categorizing teenage boys with aggression issues into two camps--those that use aggression defensively (lots of these kids are abused in the family and aggressive outside the family) and kids that are use aggression offensively (bullies--or alpha males). The kids that use aggression offensively they are saying do not have a chemical imbalance. Now whether this is all poppy-cock, who knows. It's a theory.
>
> > He views Austin as an alpha male who has learned to bully--which does make sense.
>
> Oh jeez, here come the gender stereotypes.
Elizabeth, I am as feminist as they come. I have pursued careers dominated by males most of my life (law and being the Chief Operating Officer of an entertainment company). My whole career was spent with me being the only woman in a meeting of 12 males. When I was an attorney in an aerospace company I never spoke with a woman in performing my job. There were no other women in management. I have always believed that the way society views and raises children is the most important factor in determining "male" and "female" attributes. Blah, blah, blah. Then I had children and wala ala kazam I saw things differently. My son had no toy guns; my daughter no Barbie dolls. I gave my son a toy baby when he was young; I nurtured and cultivated his tender side. I encouraged my daughter to do team sports (she refused)--she is taking Kung Fu. You get the point. Anyway, my son is such an alpha male, I can't tell you. And my daughter is such sweetness and light. My conclusion is that we are not so removed from the chimps after all. I still think the thing to do is to cultivate the masculine in the daughter and cultivate the feminine in the son. It does pay off just not in the ways I expected.
> > > I don't think you've mentioned his age. ?He's 13 and 5'9" to my 5'4".
> > > Anyway, I think that I will have Austin tested meanwhile in case there is something physical and not just biological going on.
>
> What kind of tests do you expect will be helpful?Yes, that is the question, isn't it? I guess DSM category test. Psychological testing. I guess I could do an EEG or QEEG.
> > > (I've gotten pretty cynical about such tests, especially in the last couple of weeks, after a battery of various tests failed to identify anything that might account for what a number of different doctors, including several neurologists and psychiatrists, feel was almost certainly a complex partial seizure.)I'm sorry. You do drop these rather low key bomb shells, don't you? What on earth happened, elizabeth? Complex means no physical convultions? What were you're symptoms and when did this happen?
My pdoc says my QEEG revealed MILD temporal lobe epilepsy type stuff--which apparently can be assoiciated with both panic/anxiety and depression. Jensen says tegretal is supposed to be the best for this type of disorder (i think you said use the kinder more gentle cousin drug--called?). My notes on what he says read "rarely depressed patients have symptoms of partial seizure of which 85% show remarkable improvement on Tegretal. Seizure can cause anxiety. Epileptic depression is greater than that of other chronic neurologic diseases. Originating particularly in the left ermporal hemisphere, it resembles major depression and responds especially well to Tegretal. (Carrieri et al 1993)." Do you think this is what is going on with you? Elizabeth, read my post to Shelli--where I talk about some possible seizure like symptoms that I have been having--2 car accidents in 3 weeks; olfactory hallucination. Curious about your thoughts and also about what is going on with you.
> > > I wouldn't put it that way, but yes, you could say that. The "lower brain" is very old, even reptiles have it. It controls emotions and other basic functions. The neocortex, unique to humans, is thought to be involved in our apparently unique facility with language, and probably a lot of other stuff.You know we are talking concepts here--so sometimes people try to bolster a concept with physical evidence when the concept is really what is important.
> > > "When he was good he was very, very good, but when he was bad he was horrid?"Very true:-) Mother's wisdom survives.
> > > (I should be one to talk. My boyfriend said that talking to me in my (putatively postictal) confusional state was like trying to talk to a caveman or something. I got a real kick out of that.)e--I really appreciate your intellect but what the h*** is "putatively postictal". There is a woman in my NDMDA group that says that her boyfried calls her "psycho" and says "that's ok; everybody's a bit psycho".
> > > In spite of everything, our emotions can still overcome our capacity for reason. One has to understand this in order to have a feel for what mental illness is (IMO).Absolutely, this guy (who you can see is my new guru) says that when you are depressed or anxious you should not trust or follow your thoughts--you should turn off the self talk and try to find a way to shift your mood (walking, music, movie, message, sitting in sun, reading, sex--what ever) and your thoughts will follow. I think he is right about this.
>
> > My Nardil is making me anxious--hyperventilate and also lowering my energy level (or not helping it). I'm taking 22.5 in the am and 15 in the afternoon (3:oo pm).
>
> Well that's good, you're getting up into the might-possibly-be-effective range. Try to make at least 45 mg/day a target (not necessarily a final target, since I think most people need at least 60, but a target where you should expect to be getting some benefit out of it).Well, that is my plan and I am trying to stick it out and wait out the side effects.
>
> > I never fully recover from the pm dose drowsiness and sludge through my evening with no energy and without much mood support.
>
> I'm not sure if that's a result of the PM dose or if it's part of the disruptive effect that phenelzine has on circadian rhythms.I now take my pm dose at 4 or 5 pm. I can feel myself come "off" the Nardil and crash about 10 or 11. When I took my pm dose at 1 or 2, I crashed at 6 or 7. I have found my lowest point is at 4 or 5. When I take my blood pressure then, it has clearly dipped 97/63. I am convinced that this dip is the sluggishness and that the way to combat it is either salt tablets (which I have and will try) or low blood pressure medication.
> > >I had nighttime insomnia.
I can see that happening.
> > > You know, the first time I took Valium (5 mg) it knocked me on my *ss too. Everafter, it has been completely nonsedating, even when I tried as much as 40 mg in a single dose. I guess my brain is pretty adaptive (a mixed blessing).You are right, I'm not permitting my body to adapt.
> > Does this sound like a pattern that will ultimately yield success to you?
>
> I don't presume to know such things. But I hope it will.I am so disappointed with you,e. You presume to know (and do know) so many things, why not predict the future?
>
> > It is getting hard to hang in there with this trial. Is is now day 18 on Nardil.
>
> How many days have you been taking >30 mg?12 days 30 mgs or more and 7 days 45 mgs. You're not calling me impatient are you< vbg >?
> > My memory is really terrible right now also--like losing my way on the way to the store not once but twice.
>
> Hmm...do you think that's a problem with memory, or attentiveness?Attentiveness is right. But some of it fairly extreme--2 accidents in two weeks.
Anyway, I will see my pdoc maybe today and I will try to focus on anticonvulsants and antianxiety meds. My list includes Buspar (med chart shows I had some response to this previously at least sexually); Betaxolol (you talked about this earlier as well), Clonidine and Tegretal's kinder gentler cousin. By the way, Jensen says the benzodiazepine w/drawal increases calcium flux from hippocampus and in rats produces anxiety response that was reversed by verapamil (File et al 1993) and that Clinidine also helps with benzodiazepine w/drawal (Baumgartner et al 1991).Effexor, being the exception, took 3 weeks for me to feel much better.
>
> But it worked -- why did you switch?45 lbs and no sexual interest whatsoever. Marriage was suffering big time. It was awful. My husband was not at his best.
Lorraine
Posted by shelliR on October 3, 2001, at 20:53:28
In reply to Re: hanging in there » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on October 2, 2001, at 10:00:41
Hi Lorraine.
>
> > > > I think it will, only for the last two days I have lay down, setting my clock for a 30minute nap, and woken up three hours later. I have been very very tired. I'm not sure why, whether the oxy at night is affecting the quality of my sleep. All the sudden I went from very stimulated on the oxy and wellbutrin to very sleepy. But I'm not going to worry about it yet, although certainly I can't live this way. Sometimes I am like this premenstrually, but I can't figure out my cycle at all now, to see if it's related.
> Maybe with the increase in oxy you need to increase the Wellbutrin?Actually, I might ask about raising the wellbutrin and keeping the nardil at 30mg. Nardil at 45mg really messes up my sleep.
He'll probably want to add more for me to sleep, but I'm curious anyway what wellbutrin at 400 or 450mg might feel like.
I do think the tiredness is premenstrual. This is my normal premenstrually, different from the last few crazy months.
>
>
> > > > >Oh, and I am up to 45 mg of nardil (well, I'm alternating every other day with 30mg, instead of splitting pills).
> What does this mean? 60 mg one day and 30 the other? Any reason for not splitting? I'm at 45 with splitting.
No, it comes back to idea that the half-life is long enough that it shouldn't matter. Except for very sensitive and/or stange people. < g >
>
> > > > He told me the other doctor's name, but I already forget. And I'll have to wait a bit to work it into a conversation so I can get it there again (without hurting my pdoc's feelings).
> Don't you hate that? Pay attention to these things, shelli!Actually, it's getting to write down these things. Paying attention isn't even quite enough anymore. Especially with names and other things that don't hold any meaning. And this was before any senior moments. It used to cause a huge scatter on my IQ test. I have a very hard time with languages, and even with English, I don't pick up new words the way one would expect an avid reader would.
I have the suspicion that oxy and other opiates are being used with fms patients, who frequently (always) have depression as well as tender points and that this is how its use is spreading.
that may be true. Have you read about opiates used for fms patients? Last time I followed anyone with fms they were given elivil for the fms and it seemed to really work. Interesting to use tricylics in that way. Definitely not as an antidepressant (she was already on prozac), but for targeting the specific pain of FMS. I know that there there is now a field for pain specialists and pain management clinics and I don't know how long these clinics have been around, like whether these are new things being moved away from internists.
> > If my the physical elements of my depression really go away, then how much more therapy will I need? I talked some with my therapist about this on Thursday and we also used EMDR to start to process how much of my life I have missed. I am so so sad, under the depression. I am not ready to be my age. I want those years back. Things that I was working on two years ago when everything (with the exception of survival and work came to a halt.) But there were lots of years lost before that because of my self-image, because of my dissociation, etc. So, now, if I depression is sad, and I have mourned enough, what is next in my life. Am I up to the challenge of looking for an emotiona/sexual relationship, and do I really think I have the potential to love someone fully. I don't know, and I'm not even sure I want to go through all the effort.
>
The can I love stuff though is probably going to be resolved experientially (although you may need a coach along side). When I first got involved with my husband, I went into therapy because I knew this was a good thing and I didn't want to screw it up--the urge to push him away was pretty overwhelming, but I was healthy enough to distrust the feeling.Good move. Was your inclination to push *him* away , or *anyone* away who was interested in a long-term relationship.
>> Embracing the future instead of living in the wreckage of your future--sure sounds like your mood is in the right place.
My mood is getting better with some major setbacks. But I try to remember that the on and off again suicidal feelings that on when I am prementstual, will not last. In the past few days, I decided I wanted to terminate with my therapist, then last night I talked to my therapist friend to get her feedback. I wasn't happy with any of the options that my friend was bringing up in trying to help. (I hate that. I hate when I ask for help,then I keep saying, no, that wouldn't work, no I couldn't do that, no, etc. etc. etc., and I end up being sorry that I brought the whole thing up, and I'm sure that my friend felt so also.). And then this huge black cloud came whirling, pushing me in another state of being, entirely, and I wanted to hurt myself in lieu of dying. My therapist would call it poor affect management. Her constant need to classify everything in psychobabble (if you'll excuse that term on this board!) makes me feel that she needs to push her status up (really all therapists) and mine(patients) down. I am feeling sick of having a therapist, told her what I really wanted was a coach. I don't know if I should leave her and go to another therapist, or leave and see what happens. Or stay until I am more stable. She has always been very supportive when i feel that I am completely becoming unraveled and the thought of giving up that support is scary. But I also feel that I've worked with her for over three years and it may be that I have gotten all that I can out of this relationship and that some new ideas coming from other therapist might prove to be very useful to me now. Known vs the unknown at a time when I can descend into very black feelings very quickly. Also I remember what you said about getting more from a therapist who is not necessarily smarter than you, but my experience has been that having a very very quick and smart therapist has helped me so much. She taught me more in these three years than I have ever learned from theapist who were stronger in their feeling rather than thinking function. Have you taken the Myer Briggs? I am a INTJ. I'm guessing that my therapist is a ETNJ or a ENTJ. All my past therapists have been feeling types and I have gotten very frustrated much of the time. This therapist has taught me a lot about staying on track
> > > > Well if you take the neurotin and adderal, will you be able to tell when the nardil kicks in? Because that is probably an easier option for you, to take that route, rather than the purity route. Actually it is the way my doctor wanted to handle things in the hospital and I resisted, then gave in after one day. I wanted to try selegiline for a while before I added the oxy, because I really did feel that the oxy made me feel so good, that I wouldn't be able to see if the selegiline was working. But my pain was too great, and we decided that I could always take away the oxy, in other words I guess it would be called the subtraction method, rather than the addition method.
> I'm a believer in the subtraction method too. I'm so sorry I'm off the selegiline in a way. I loved what it did cognitively for me. Really felt like I was back to my old self in term of being able to think. I read some of my posts from back then, it shows.It may be possible to add a very low dose of seligeline, while it's still a reversible MAOI. Have you done any research on this?
>
> > > > I've heard that there are a lot less interactions with nardil and other meds vs. parnate and other meds. Is adderal time release? If so, is it a capsule that can be split? Is it a capsule and a pill? JUST KIDDING. See we already have a history :-)
> And, you're funny...Well I am taking my second dose of Nardil at 4 pm and if I have a dinner party at 5 pm because otherwise I crash. I don't understand you or elizabeth with this steady state stuff and "it doesn't matter when you take your dose"--it matters a great deal to me. I really feel the doses kick in and then I feel myself crash or come down off the dose--in the evening, it's like coming down off an amphetamine.That's so strange to me. I literally took 45mg for weeks and felt nothing, and than it totally kicked in. But that's true, it never made any different when I took it, still same side effects (around waking up every few hours at night, and afternoon fatigue.)
>
>
> >
> > > > Lorraine, I really don't know what to say. I can only say for me that it took a full five weeks of 45mg, and it changed my life. You haven't even done one week at 45mg.
> I didn't know there was a "whining" license competancy requirement:-)
:-). Hey, my statement was intended to give you support and encouragement. :-) To say that you've been on too low a dose to feel discouraged yet. (Oh, yes, I am also the president of the discouragement committee. I get to assess at what points you are allowed to feel discouragement < g > Very powerful roles, I have).>
> > > > I also have to say that nardil alone wasn't enough. I also used a benzo throughout my whole adult life, sometimes more, sometimes none. It allowed me more or less to lead a normal life. And if I could have tolerated a stimulent, I would have been on that also.
>
> I'm being difficult with this, I know. The valium I could take at night (b/4 bed) and it actually might work throughout the day (I know it shouldn't with half lives and so on but I think it might have when I was taking it to sleep). But I also think I felt sexual impairment on it--which, by the way, I think Neurontin is also contributing to. When I was on Nardil alone, surprisingly, I had no impairment so I actually felt things normally for a week or so.Well, now you are on a higher dose, so that's going to be hard to separate that out based on one week several weeks ago. It sounds like you are experiencing ony partial impairment. If that is true, then a little serzone or a bit of wellbutrin might help.
You might want to do some searches to se if klonopin or neurotin actually affects sexaul impairment. I've known a lot of people on both, and haven't heard much said about that. Nothing like the SSRIs, etc.
BTW, I think you are testing this impairment possiblity a bit more than is truely neccesary for a fair trial. < g >.
I don't think I've heard of sexual impairment on valium. Didn't affect me at all that way. Now if you want to talk about impairment, the codiene I think has quite a factor. But I have not participated in any trials lately. It could be very frustrating because it is actually very sensual, but full release is difficult.
I'm reluctant to try Klonopin (??) b/c I have heard it has some sexual impairment plus I have also heard that while it helps with anxiety it can actually worsen depression. I'm also very sensitive to cognitive impairment caused by these drugs.Most people who have a dissociative disorder are both on an AD and klonopin. I don't think there are many complaints about it worsening the depression. I would say valium would have a greater tendency than klonopin to cause depression. I also haven't read much about it causing sexual disfunction. As for cognitive impairment, I actually think valium helps me with that, because it stablizes me and grounds me and that adds to my cognitive abilities.
Klonopin doesn't seem to worsen depression the way valium can for me. If I am really really depressed, I wouldn't take valium, but if I'm that depressed, I'm generally not that agitated or anxious so I don't need to take valium.
>
> Speaking of cognitive impairment, I have been in two accidents (very minor--backed into a parked car and solidly tapped the car ahead of me at a stop light). This plus losing some ability to concentrate. It's funny the accident where I hit the car at the stop light, it was actually as though I was "gone" for a moment. Then the other day, I had what I am convinced was a "smell" hallucination. In Beverly Hills on Rodeo, when I went to get into my parked car, I smelled marijuana very strongly. I looked around (it's not THAT uncommon in Beverly Hills after all) and saw no parked car with occupants, no car on the road that would explain the smell and no people in site. It was so odd that I actually stood there for about 3 minutes trying to figure out if there was a diner or restaurant that might be emitting exhaust that smelled like mj. Plus I am getting electric tingles on my arms or legs. Anyway, I think this may be temporal lobe seizure like stuff. I'm going to ask my pdoc. I'm wondering if Nardil might increase seizure like activity. I'm also wondering if I should add a different anticonvulsant.
Well, I got my masters on nardil, and I don't remember having any cognitive difficulties. And I supplemented with valium to keep me grounded. .
.
>
> > > > That’s why I mentioned subtraction above. That really may be easier. easier = better.
>
> Yes. I just need to move on this stuff I think. I am getting some mood support now I believe.But then you feel that everything else is not going right. Maybe you can deal with the sideeffects after.
>
>
> > > >I have had the image of myself as fucked up, much more than depressed until two years ago. Lots of stuff to work on outside the depression which was managed by nardil.
>
> I had this image of myself as super-competent b/4 my depression. It's all nonsense. It's like we collect our moods roll them into a ball and call it "self".Well, maybe you were super-competent before the depression? Do you look back and see great sex and clear mind, because those are the things that come up over and over for you , when wondering about what is being affected by the AD or mood stabilizer, other than the depression.
>
> >
> > > > When you find the right drug, then you will naturally put it into perspective.
> I know this is true, but I also know that I may not find the right drug and that I still need to be able to live a life to my fullest capability.I think you will find the right drug. but you may have to prioritize what you are willing to live with, and work on the side effects after the success of the AD. I don't think I have the sublety of side effects that you do. Like I don't usually have to ask the questions, is this pill effecting something. I have such strong reactions to the drugs I can't tolerate, and there were many of them. On the other hand, it never occurred to me to go off of nardil because it was causing afternoon tiredness. Taking a 1/2 nap seemed a small price to pay, and when it didn't work anymore, in hindsight, an even smaller price to pay.
>
> > > > What is your next plan, if nardil doesn’t kick in. I know that one plan would be to go back to moclobernide with adjuncts, but is that next? I know you always have a next plan.
> I'm going to give the Nardil some more time and work on the anxiety and anticonvulsant side of the equation for right now.> What was atarax like?
I take atarax to sleep and it also works the next day for me as an antihistamine. I sometimes adjust up and down depending on my drug trials. But I just use it for sleep, so I don't think too much about it. And I also have histimine which rises to the surface and makes me itch horribly (I think it's from grass) and now I don't have to worry about that anymore.
>
> You mean you took effexor successfully once and when you retried it, it didn’t work?
> Precisely. Ain't that a b****?Well, you gave it up for pretty important reasons for you.
>
>
> > > > I remember that you said that you had quit work to be home with your kids, because that was something you had missed. Had you thought you’d stay home until the kids were a certain age, or just left it open-ended?
>
> I'm not sure what I'm doing with this. I don't think I can 9-5 anymore or assume my old 12 hour days. I don't think that I have the ability to withstand stress the way I used to. So I would need to do some sort of "home" work which I could transition into slowly.If you can get away with it financially (and it appears that you can), I can't see working twelve hours a day, except for myself. And if I had kids, I probably couldn't see it at all.
>
> Shelli, I'm hoping you are progressing on your meds and feeling better, less sleepy. Let me know and let me know about that trade group meeting.Group meeting was go crowded and it was totally open. I thought there was going to be a presentation. I learned a few specific facts about some plug-ins to photoshop, so it was worth it for me to go. I wouldn't go again, unless there was a speaker or demonstration that had to do directly with my work. I did see a young woman who did some freelance work for me, so that was fun--it's been about two years and she's been assisting and is ready to go solo if she can get some work. She'd like to do portraits and support that work by doing weddings. There were a bunch of people who have been converting to purely digital, but their commercial photographers which has very little relevance to my work. Still it was worth it for the few tibits I learned and also made me realize that I need to follow more closely what software is being put out by other companies to support photoshop. My digital pictures are coming out beautiful, although I can't find exactly the right thicknesss of paper. The big thing for me is going to be a huge change in marketing, selling myself and my decision to go digital, without seeming defensive. Once people see the work they'll know. Also my past clients have enough confidence in me to know that I woudn't change unless I thought the quality of my work would be equal. But it is harder to explain on the phone (not doing hand-prints anymore?) I think the first year will be rough, but I think it's absolutely a neccesary change for me to have a much better quality of life.
Shelli
>
Posted by Elizabeth on October 5, 2001, at 11:53:51
In reply to Re: hanging in there » Lorraine, posted by shelliR on October 3, 2001, at 20:53:28
> Actually, I might ask about raising the wellbutrin and keeping the nardil at 30mg. Nardil at 45mg really messes up my sleep.
> He'll probably want to add more for me to sleep,I'm confused here: more of what?
> but I'm curious anyway what wellbutrin at 400 or 450mg might feel like.
You're getting into the danger zone there, and your pdoc might be unwilling (though he seems to be willing to do an awful lot of surprising things :-) ).
> I do think the tiredness is premenstrual. This is my normal premenstrually, different from the last few crazy months.
Are your periods regular? I'm curious because buprenorphine seems to be making mine very irregular and unpredictable.
> No, it comes back to idea that the half-life is long enough that it shouldn't matter. Except for very sensitive and/or stange people. < g >
It's not the half-life as such (Nardil is actually very short-lived); it's the time required for new MAO to be manufactured that is relevant here. Alternating days with Nardil or Parnate is a reasonable way to increase the dose more gradually than the available pills allow you to do easily. (Marplan comes in regular tablets, without the thick layer of pharmaceutical glaze that Nardil and Parnate have, so it's easier to split.) It's useful for tapering off MAOIs, as well.
> I have the suspicion that oxy and other opiates are being used with fms patients, who frequently (always) have depression as well as tender points and that this is how its use is spreading.
I think so too. Really, opioids were the first antidepressants ever used; it's just become politically incorrect to prescribe them for depression today. But it's becoming more acceptable to prescribe them for chronic pain. Pain specialists have more experience in using opioids than psychiatrists do, so they're presumably more comfortable about prescribing opioids.
> Last time I followed anyone with fms they were given elivil for the fms and it seemed to really work.
I've heard of Effexor and Meridia being used, too.
> Interesting to use tricylics in that way.
They help with neuropathic pain; I don't know much about FMS or why they might help with it. It might be of interest to you that when I was taking Nardil, my back pain went away. Both times. And the pain returned very soon after I d/c'd the Nardil.
> I know that there there is now a field for pain specialists and pain management clinics and I don't know how long these clinics have been around, like whether these are new things being moved away from internists.
"Pain management" sounds like a code phrase to mean something other than "pain *treatment*," if you know what I mean!
> In the past few days, I decided I wanted to terminate with my therapist, then last night I talked to my therapist friend to get her feedback. I wasn't happy with any of the options that my friend was bringing up in trying to help. (I hate that. I hate when I ask for help, then I keep saying, no, that wouldn't work, no I couldn't do that, no, etc. etc. etc., and I end up being sorry that I brought the whole thing up, and I'm sure that my friend felt so also.)
I know the feeling -- although it's even more annoying when the well-meaning suggestions are offered unsolicited, IMO. :-}
> My therapist would call it poor affect management. Her constant need to classify everything in psychobabble (if you'll excuse that term on this board!) makes me feel that she needs to push her status up (really all therapists) and mine(patients) down.
Oh yes, pathologizing every feeling you have, everything you do, etc., is annoying on many different levels!
> I am feeling sick of having a therapist, told her what I really wanted was a coach.
I feel the same -- I'm not in talk therapy right now, but I feel like a "coach" or somebody like that could be helpful to me. How do I go about finding such a person, though (if you know)?
From what you say, it sounds to me like you should start trying to find a new therapist -- preferably one with references -- before closing the book with your current therapist. Would that be possible?
> Also I remember what you said about getting more from a therapist who is not necessarily smarter than you, but my experience has been that having a very very quick and smart therapist has helped me so much.
I understand -- you need a therapist who can keep up with you. :-)
> I am a INTJ.
INTP here.
> It may be possible to add a very low dose of seligeline, while it's still a reversible MAOI. Have you done any research on this?
Selegiline is an irreversible MAOI, but at low doses it's a selective inhibitor of MAO-B. I've heard of some people being helped by low-dose selegiline, so it might be worth a try (depending on what you were thinking of mixing it with). I think it tends to be better tolerated than the other MAOIs.
> That's so strange to me. I literally took 45mg for weeks and felt nothing, and than it totally kicked in. But that's true, it never made any different when I took it, still same side effects (around waking up every few hours at night, and afternoon fatigue.)
I think that MAOIs interfere with circadian rhythms, rather than simply being activating.
> I don't think I've heard of sexual impairment on valium. Didn't affect me at all that way.
I think that sedatives can be impairing for men but would expect barbiturates or alcohol to be much more of a problem than benzos.
> I'm reluctant to try Klonopin (??) b/c I have heard it has some sexual impairment plus I have also heard that while it helps with anxiety it can actually worsen depression.
I think it can, although I also think that some people might be interpreting sedation as depression. I'm not sure about the sexual thing, apart from the sedative effect which seems to be common to all benzos. (FWIW, my SO takes Klonopin -- recently switched from Xanax -- and I haven't noticed a problem.)
> Most people who have a dissociative disorder are both on an AD and klonopin.
That makes sense, but why Klonopin instead of any other benzo?
> I would say valium would have a greater tendency than klonopin to cause depression.
Why would that be, I wonder?
> As for cognitive impairment, I actually think valium helps me with that, because it stablizes me and grounds me and that adds to my cognitive abilities.
That's kind of what buprenorphine does for me, among other things. (This isn't unique to buprenorphine: morphine and other mu-opioids have the same effect. Benzos, however, do not.)
> Well, I got my masters on nardil, and I don't remember having any cognitive difficulties.
I took the GRE on Nardil, to provide a counterexample. :-)
> I take atarax to sleep and it also works the next day for me as an antihistamine.
A very strong antihistamine. I've taken it a few times (to offset the pruritis caused by buprenorphine), and although it works very well, it's pretty heavy on the side effects (sedation, appetite stimulation, etc.). It's a great sleeping pill for lots of people, that's definitely true -- I think that it's often forgotten when doctors are looking for something to help their patients sleep.
I think that promethazine probably has milder side effects and is just as good an antihistamine, but if you're looking for a sleeping pill, Atarax is a good choice.
> If you can get away with it financially (and it appears that you can), I can't see working twelve hours a day, except for myself. And if I had kids, I probably couldn't see it at all.
I don't work 12 hrs/day, but my SO does (counting commute time). It sucks.
best,
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on October 5, 2001, at 12:15:39
In reply to Re: more stuff » Elizabeth, posted by Lorraine on October 2, 2001, at 14:14:34
Re condoms: [this is way OT, isn't it? :-) ]
> Take your left hand and wrap it around the index finger on your right hand. Now put on a thin latex glove and do the same thing. Do you feel the difference? That's as close as I can get to describing it.Okay. I don't have any latex gloves handy, so I'll just have to take your word for it. :-)
> These are compelling reasons. I have residual STDs from the sixies that effect my life (please don't ask for details).
HPV?
> Also the concept of responsibility is great.
It's great as a concept; in actual practise.... < g >
> But if you get into a long term committed relationship and are choosing contraception, my hunch is that the decision gets based on how much the contraception interferes with sex.
Here you get into a spot where both partners have to demand monogamy of one another. I think it's important that everyone feel comfortable being honest with their partner if they hook up with someone (even if they are using condoms). So if you can pull that off, I think that's great, but I wonder how likely it is.
> I was on the pill for at least 15 years, then used an IUD, then my husband got a vasectomy.
IUD? Yikes, you're dating yourself again! :-)
> The pill didn't bother me, but my doctor wanted me off it when I reached a certain age so I used the IUD.
That's weird, that your doctor wanted you to go off the pill. When I was in college (pretty recent history) it seemed like the doctors & nurses at the med center were encouraging (perhaps even pressuring) just about all women students to take the pill. They actually suggested to me that I take the pill to prevent menstrual cramps. Kinda creepy, IMO. (It turned out that all I needed was a stronger NSAID than the OTC ones I'd tried.)
> I was very resistant to the idea of using an IUD--I had endometriosis and it isn't really recommend for people who have painful periods--but I found that the IUD was absolutely great. I had it in for 7 years, then renewed for another 5 or so.
Huh. That's good, that it wasn't a problem for you. I don't know anybody else who's used one (well, that is, I don't know anybody else who's used one well enough that she would have told me about it < g >).
> But is further demonstrated by the fact that the active ingredient in an antidepressant my not be the obvious but rather the metabolites.
Yes, that's called a prodrug -- an inactive drug whose activity is owed to its metabolites. Codeine is an example: it doesn't work for people who don't metabolise it into morphine. Other opioids have active metabolites -- for example, oxycodone is metabolised to oxymorphone (active) as well as noroxycodone (inactive). But oxycodone itself has some effect too, so it's not considered a prodrug. (I think that very little of it is transformed into oxymorphone, actually. Oxymorphone (brand name NuMorphan) is a very strong opioid, one of the ones that are pretty much only prescribed to people who have cancer and the like. Dilaudid (hydromorphone) is another (better-known) such drug.)
I've heard it suggested that Wellbutrin might be a prodrug. Bupropion itself doesn't seem to do very much in the dose range that's used clinically, but it has multiple metabolites that might be responsible for its AD effects.
> > I can't deal with the touchy-feely types, myself. They nauseate me.
>
> Man, you are really one tough nut, aren't you< vbg >?Dunno about the "tough" part...
> You may ber right, but during our initial consultation he did say that young boys (13) with aggression issues sometime have a deficiency in serotonin and too much testosterone aggravates the issue.
That would be an oversimplification.
> The kids that use aggression offensively they are saying do not have a chemical imbalance. Now whether this is all poppy-cock, who knows. It's a theory.
I think that the term "chemical imbalance" would have to be defined in order for it to be a theory!
> > Oh jeez, here come the gender stereotypes.
>
> Elizabeth, I am as feminist as they come.I don't doubt it. It sounds like we've had some similar experiences (being the only woman in various groups, that is). But anyway, I think that stereotyping men and boys is just as irrational as stereotyping women and girls, and causes just as much trouble. This is not to say that I don't believe there are any intrinsic differences between the sexes. But I want to see those differences delineated and studied scientifically, and not accepted prima facie. This isn't to say that your experience with your children isn't valid. I have no children myself and probably never will, but I know a lot of parents who feel the way you do. It's hard to do a controlled experiment with kids, though, because sooner or later they are going to get a taste of the popular media, and one thing that all kids do (except maybe if they're B.F. Skinner's kids < g >) is interact with other kids. It's hard to control for these effects.
I think it's important that children be taught, explicitly, about the existence of gender stereotypes (and other stereotypes, for that matter) and that parents discuss this stuff with their kids. (One simple way to bring it up is to point out stereotypes on TV.) I think that this sort of interaction with children helps teach them to think critically so that they can deal with new issues that arise in life.
> I still think the thing to do is to cultivate the masculine in the daughter and cultivate the feminine in the son. It does pay off just not in the ways I expected.
How do you think it has payed off?
> He's 13 and 5'9" to my 5'4".
That must be awkward!
> > What kind of tests do you expect will be helpful?
>
> Yes, that is the question, isn't it? I guess DSM category test. Psychological testing. I guess I could do an EEG or QEEG.I don't think there is a particular DSM test -- the doctor (or other clinician) just tries to get a handle on the symptoms by observation. I'm interested in how some doctors have been able to make predictions about what treatment will be effective based on EEGs and brain imaging.
I haven't been very impressed by psychological tests such as the MMPI, and I hate the idea that people are pigeonholed because of their responses on such tests.
> I'm sorry. You do drop these rather low key bomb shells, don't you?
Uhh...I dunno. What would that mean?
> What on earth happened, elizabeth? Complex means no physical convultions? What were you're symptoms and when did this happen?
I posted about it, different thread (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010917/msgs/79454.html).
> My pdoc says my QEEG revealed MILD temporal lobe epilepsy type stuff--which apparently can be assoiciated with both panic/anxiety and depression.
It sure can.
> Jensen says tegretal is supposed to be the best for this type of disorder (i think you said use the kinder more gentle cousin drug--called?).
That's right -- I'm taking Trileptal (oxcarbazepine). I don't think it's been tested much in psych disorders, but Tegretol has and it does work for a lot of people who don't respond to conventional ADs. (I haven't noticed anything from the Trileptal, BTW.)
> Elizabeth, read my post to Shelli--where I talk about some possible seizure like symptoms that I have been having--2 car accidents in 3 weeks; olfactory hallucination. Curious about your thoughts and also about what is going on with you.
It does sound like you could be having seizures. (the pot smoke thing made me laugh, BTW. :-) ) I'd say it's crucial that you get this under control, whatever it is, because of the car accidents. Highway hypnosis is one thing, but when you actually black out while driving, that's just dangerous.
> You know we are talking concepts here--so sometimes people try to bolster a concept with physical evidence when the concept is really what is important.
I know what you mean, but in this case the "reptilian brain" actually does correspond to something.
> e--I really appreciate your intellect but what the h*** is "putatively postictal".
"putatively" = allegedly, supposedly
"postictal" = following a seizure
> There is a woman in my NDMDA group that says that her boyfried calls her "psycho" and says "that's ok; everybody's a bit psycho".
I guess it's all a matter of context!
> Absolutely, this guy (who you can see is my new guru) says that when you are depressed or anxious you should not trust or follow your thoughts--you should turn off the self talk and try to find a way to shift your mood (walking, music, movie, message, sitting in sun, reading, sex--what ever) and your thoughts will follow.
That works for a lot of people, I think. Wish I was one of them. (I really got into CBT for a while -- I was convinced it was going to "fix" me -- and the behaviour- >mood thing, like you describe, was a big deal, but in the end I just couldn't make it work.)
> Well, that is my plan and I am trying to stick it out and wait out the side effects.
I hope they become manageable. Hang in there.
> When I take my blood pressure then, it has clearly dipped 97/63. I am convinced that this dip is the sluggishness and that the way to combat it is either salt tablets (which I have and will try) or low blood pressure medication.
I would try salt first (did I ever tell you about my magical potion of McDonald's french fries and Gatorade?). The main medication used for this is a steroid that might have nasty side effects of its own.
> > I don't presume to know such things. But I hope it will.
>
> I am so disappointed with you,e. You presume to know (and do know) so many things, why not predict the future?You'd better be joking here. :-)
> > How many days have you been taking >30 mg?
>
> 12 days 30 mgs or more and 7 days 45 mgs. You're not calling me impatient are you< vbg >?No, I can understand how you're feeling, with all the side effects and not getting anything positive out of it. But I encourage you to stick it out. There might be ways that you can alleviate some of the side effects.
> Anyway, I will see my pdoc maybe today and I will try to focus on anticonvulsants and antianxiety meds.
That sounds like a plan. Let me know how it went.
> By the way, Jensen says the benzodiazepine w/drawal increases calcium flux from hippocampus and in rats produces anxiety response that was reversed by verapamil (File et al 1993) and that Clinidine also helps with benzodiazepine w/drawal (Baumgartner et al 1991).
I've also heard of people using Neurontin and other anticonvulsants.
> Effexor, being the exception, took 3 weeks for me to feel much better.
Exception to...?
> > But it worked -- why did you switch?
>
> 45 lbs and no sexual interest whatsoever.'Nuff said! :-) That sex thing seems to be really hard to treat, especially the loss-of-interest.
-elizabeth
Posted by BK on October 6, 2001, at 20:41:20
In reply to Re: Nardil vs. Parnate, posted by lawrence s. on July 25, 2001, at 1:15:41
> > > > > >Nardil for me was a social lubricant/personality amplifier. A miricale drug for my S.P. I Had the best results with 90mg. a day.
> > > Parnate seemed better geared for deppresion. Also seemed to react to amines much more than Nardil. Hope this helps.
> >
> > Lawrence: Thank you for your response. What do you mean by "seemed to react to amines much more than Nardil"? There seem to be a lot of Nardil fans out there and not as many Parnate fans. The difficulty with Nardil is the weight gain and sexual dysfunction side effects that are prevalent. Were these a problem for you?
> >
> > > >When I was on Parnate I noticed my blood pressure increasing while eating certain foods that I used to eat all the time on Nardil. For instance: chocolate, caffeine, bacon to name a few. Maybe because of Parnate being more stimulating it caused the problem.
> Sex was a problem for me on Nardil, but not impossible. Just thought Iwas going to have a heart attack before ejaculation. I also gained about 30lbs while on it. It was amazing the amount of sweets I could eat!
> >LARRY
> > > >Lawrence S.lawerence,
Why did you stop taking Nardil? I took it for four months before it finally became completely inactive. While it was working, it was amazing. Quite the social lubricant! Have you found a suitable replacement? Nothing i tried since, which covers just about every AD out there, has worked even remotely for me. I tried Nardil again years later, but to no avail. Thanks in advance.
Posted by shelliR on October 7, 2001, at 15:08:35
In reply to Re: hanging in there » shelliR, posted by Elizabeth on October 5, 2001, at 11:53:51
Elizabeth,
I have had a horrible horrible weekend. It seems that when I need to go up on the oxy, I don't get a little more depressed, I get totally horribly depressed. You have never gone up on bupe since you have started it? Did you get the idea from Alexander Bodkin that most people don't have to go up on buprenorphine? The studies are all so short-term , it's hard to say that I would not find the same need to go up on bupe also. My pdoc thinks it does not make a difference--that the same thing will happen with buprenorphine. He is consulting with a pain special and they think I reach a certain level and then stabilize on that level. I think maybe that's what happens with pain patients. I am getting panicked about how much oxy is carrying the whole load. Apparently, I am getting no effect from the wellbutrin or nardil at 30mg. My pdoc said I could go up on wellbutrin (actually up to 450 is sort of an approved dose) but I think I'm going to go up instead of nardil and go for augmentors again. Besides tricyclics do you have any ideas? I feel like I've tried every adjunct. Does Bodkin see in-patients at McLean?My pdoc suggested either effexor or remeron (before I chose the nardil) and I was afraid of weight gain, although he said that my wellbutrin would balance that out. I haven't seen very much success with remeron on the board, and effexor seems like a complicated mess of a drug. So I am not eager to take either of them. Again I may ask my pdoc to try buprenorphine, just to see if I can tolerate it. Then I would know whether or not that was an option.
> > I do think the tiredness is premenstrual. This is my normal premenstrually, different from the last few crazy months.
> Are your periods regular? I'm curious because buprenorphine seems to be making mine very irregular and unpredictable.
That's really interesting. They became irregular about the time I started oxycontin. I got three in very quick succession.
I didn't think much about it, because I'm in my forties. So I just thought perimentopausal.
> > Most people who have a dissociative disorder are both on an AD and klonopin.
> That makes sense, but why Klonopin instead of any other benzo?
>
For some reason that I have no clue about, klonpin was touted as potentially slowing down switching of personalities.
I don't know about the structural mechanism (as you would expect by now), but I do think klonopin became PC. I think it must have a different structure (shorter half life?) because it often doesn't work as a prn like valium; rather, it seems to work better if one stays on it continuously, but again I don't know why.> > I would say valium would have a greater tendency than klonopin to cause depression.
> Why would that be, I wonder?
I think probably the unknown mechanism that I was referring to above. :-)
>
> > As for cognitive impairment, I actually think valium helps me with that, because it stablizes me and grounds me and that adds to my cognitive abilities.
> That's kind of what buprenorphine does for me, among other things. (This isn't unique to buprenorphine: morphine and other mu-opioids have the same effect. Benzos, however, do not.)
well if I am relaxed, then I can focus better. So the valium didn't improve my cognitive abilities per say, but allowed me to relax and study, etc. I guess grad school in psych wasn't all that hard. :-) I actually had to take neuropsychology as an undergrad, but not in grad school.
>Shelli
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