Posted by Dena on July 4, 2005, at 13:49:52
In reply to Re: Lou's response to an aspect of this thread- » Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on July 4, 2005, at 12:18:20
I believe that there's a great deal of confusion here...
I believe that not everyone is a member of the "Body of Christ". It's a personal choice. Individuals (not institutions) who follow Jesus Christ as their personal savior, are members of the Body of Christ. This isn't dependent upon membership to a particular religion, denomination, or group.
I believe it's an internal condition "of the heart", made by faith... and ultimately, only God knows what each heart believes.
However, I believe that if a person has such an internal belief, it should "show up" externally, in their actions as well. The person who follows Jesus should demonstrate the character that He taught. Primarily: loving God with their entire being (all the heart/soul/strength/mind), and they should love their neighbors as themselves... and Jesus clearly taught that neighbor included even those we might consider to be our "enemies".
Love here doesn't mean a "warm fuzzy feeling", but rather ACTS of love, kindness and mercy - compassion.
I believe it doesn't matter what a persons SAYS about what he/she believes (talk is cheap). If a person does not DEMONSTRATE love for God and others, then that person is not following Jesus, and cannot genuinely claim to be in the "Body of Christ" (this is according to Jesus, not merely my personal claim).
I believe it doesn't matter what organization one belongs to, what church one has a membership in, or what speeches/books/articles one might deliver... if that person does not demonstrate love, then it's not true in their heart. In today's vernacular - one has to "walk the walk", not just "talk the talk"...
Hitler may have said some "right things" to cause people in a predominantly "Christian nation" (at least nominally Christian) that he was one of them, but due to his hatred for Jews and others, he was clearly not demonstrating love, by any stretch of the imagination.
Hitler may have made sure that he was photgraphed associating with clergy members, but that was for show.
There are photos of clergy members saluting Hitler, but none of us knows whether those people were threatened with death or trips to concentration camps in order to force them to obey... additionally, being a clergy member doesn't assure that that person has indeed made a personal decision to accept Jesus as their savior, which is the Biblical definition for what makes a person a Christian... not their affiliation with a religious institution, and not their seminary education.
Hitler sent many, many people to their death, for defying him (including a great number of Christians who dared to defy him, who dared to support the Jews, and who dared to try to help them). He was an insecure egomaniac who had many twisted ideas... he had a personal vendetta for Jews, due to his art work being rejected by his Jewish art teacher in Vienna, as well as some of the horrible anti-Semantic teachings that have been wrongly attributed to those who called themselves "Christians".
As a Christian, I personally am ashamed and horrified of the many atrocitites that have been done "in the name of Christ". Jesus never taught hatred. He never taught to look down on anyone, or any group of people. Jesus Himself was Jewish -- He had great love for all people, and taught His followers to do the same.
No, I personally do not believe that Hitler was a Christian. Nothing in his life demonstrated that he understood a single thing that Jesus taught. He certainly never followed Him -- he only used the platform of Christianity for his own evil schemes. He manipulated the country of Germany, playing on the people's emotions. He was an evil, vile man... and the fact that he claimed to be a Christian is an abomination.
Jews have been falsely accused of all manner of wrongs throughout history. Each person deserves to be evaluated by their own heart... each individual is capable of either great good, or great wrong, and we're each accountable. The divide between Jews and Christians is a horrible one... it was never meant to be. The goal of those who claim to follow Jesus should be to demonstrate great love, mercy, compassion and honor to each other... and to all others, regardless of their personal beliefs. Never, never, never is it acceptable for a follower of Jesus to hate others, to be cruel to others, or to think of themselves as better in any way! Never!
Hitler clearly failed this test.
[Dr. Bob, Dinah, (& other moderators)... It is NOT my intent here to be insensitive, offensive, or to in ANY way put down anyone else for what or how they believe.
I'm simply stating a personal opinion, based on my own understanding, of how Hitler could not, based upon his actions, claim to both do what he did, and to believe what he claimed to believe ... they are not compatible.
If anything I've stated here is deemed to be worthy of being blocked... please give me the opportunity to clarify what I've said. It is my intention to foster understanding, as well as to support those of other faiths, including those who've long been the targets of horrendous persecution.]
poster:Dena
thread:523042
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20050510/msgs/523326.html