Posted by janejane on July 14, 2010, at 13:16:12
In reply to Re: PMDD and estrogen therapy?, posted by dusty rhoads on July 11, 2010, at 15:31:42
Hi dusty. Sorry for the delay.
So an estriol only cream is OK, then? Is it converted to estradiol in the body, and if not, does it not matter? Since estradiol is the kind they usually test for, I assumed it was the most important, but I never read too much about the different types. What kind of dosing schedule are you using?
It's interesting that your naturopath considered your estrogen low even though you were within range. (My doc would not make that leap.) From what I remember anxiety and irritability can be part of type D so I wouldn't worry too much about them being bigger issues than depression. I would think it would make more sense to go by the numbers more than by symptoms, anyway, in determining what you should supplement.
High norepinephrine makes sense with your symptoms, from what I understand about neurotransmitters. (I've read mixed things about the utility of neurotransmitter testing so it's interesting to see that your results do seem to match your symptoms. How were your serotonin and dopamine levels?) I know I read something about how hormones affect various neurotransmitters but I don't remember the relationships. Oh darn, I just found the link I was thinking about, and it sort of contradicts the idea of estrogen helping you if your NE is high. See here:
http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C52281.html
Quote:
"Estrogens appear to affect mood by suppressing type A-monoamine oxidase (MAO) while enhancing type B-MAO. These enzymes are involved in the oxidation of biogenic amines - norepinephrine, epinephrine, dopamine, and serotonin - which have significant effects on mood and behavior. The net effect of estrogen on these MAOs is to increase the levels of epinephrine, norepinephrine and serotonin (all normally deactivated by MAO-A) and decrease the levels of dopamine and phenylethylamine (both normally metabolized by MAO-B).
The effects of these changes on mood and behavior are well documented: epinephrine triggers anxiety; norepinephrine, hostility and irritability; serotonin, at high levels, nervous tension, drowsiness, palpitations, water retention and inability to concentrate and perform. Dopamine is believed to counteract these three amines by inducing a feeling of relaxation and increasing mental alertness. It is of interest to note that a decreased dopamine level in the hypothalamus is also believed to be central to the hormonal imbalances found in polycystic ovarian disease.
Estrogens also affect mood by competing for pyridoxal-5-phosphate binding sites, stimulating hepatic tryptophan pyrolase (shunting away from serotonin synthesis), and decreasing glucose tolerance."
Hmm... I'm not sure it's a reliable website, but it sure stinks that it suggests that estrogen increase NEs. You'll have to ask your naturopath about that.
Oh, here's another article on estrogen I just found:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/406718_2
Scroll down to see the section on mood. It confirms the idea that estrogen increases NE and serotonin. However, it also says it increases dopamine and opioid and endorphin production, which seems to contradict what the other site said. Lovely. (I give more credence to the medscape article since it has cites, though.)
Oh goodness. Looking at more articles just makes me more confused... there are a lot of contradictory claims. If were well enough, I'd try to take some biology classes to get a better handle on this. But of course, if I were well, I probably wouldn't care about trying to understand it anymore.
I'd definitely be interested to know what's in your herbal concoction so please do ask about that, too. As for the other supplements you're trying, I hope one or more of them work for you. I tried taurine a couple times and didn't notice much. Theanine, I think I already told you about (prefer matcha)... phenibut is familiar but I never explored it. Right now depression is more of a problem for me than anxiety, though dread and irritability are a big part of my monthly woes. My diagnosis is major depression on top of dysthymia, by the way. My symptoms appear to be exacerbated by PMS and SAD (winter blues, which I'm not looking forward to in a few months). I'm 39 and have lived with this since I was a teenager.
Have you not tried tryptophan or 5-HTP? I don't remember if you said you were a responder to SSRIs or ADs in general, just that you didn't like the side effects.
I've thought about seeing a naturopath, but cost is definitely a concern. May I ask how much yours charges, including for tests and supplements? How often do you see her? (If you don't want to say publicly, you can send me a babblemail by clicking my username at the top of this post.)
Melatonin? I know I tried it and decided not to continue, but I can't remember why. I want to say it didn't help with sleep, and maybe me spacey or gave me a headache or something (guessing). I'm pretty sure I've read of some people complaining that it makes them more depressed. Maybe I should go find the bottle and try it again. Sunlight is also supposed to help with melatonin production, is it not? I do notice that I get really tired if I'm in the sun for a long time.
Is hypoglycemia a problem for you at all?
When you tried rhodiola, what brand did you use?
OK, I'm going to stop now before this gets even longer. ;-)
Take care,
jane
poster:janejane
thread:953868
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20100703/msgs/954467.html