Posted by JLx on May 24, 2005, at 22:53:57
In reply to RE: sulphur metabolism » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 12:27:14
> > I sure don't know. I thought that people there were suggesting that TMG is equivalent to SAM-e, so I thought if SAM-e helped you then that may too. BUT, there was also something there that had me thinking that if I wanted to duplicate SAM-e I should take methionine AND TMG.
>
> TMG is a promoter of methionine formation from homocysteine. Taking methionine also would be redundant.Yes, I can see how it could be. But, in that previous discussion http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/278173.html which was about how a person might be a slow cycler of SAM-e, quoting Dr. Walsh, http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walshQZ.htm#Ta
"In addition, persons who are undermethylated have a SAM cycle which is "spinning very slowly", much like a superhighway with little traffic. The answer for them is NOT to more efficiently convert the small amount of homocysteine to methionine (using TMG), but rather to directly introduce more methionine or SAMe into the body."
You said,
"It depends on why it's spinning slowly. If it's because of hyperhomocysteinemia (high blood homocysteine, a risk factor for heart attack, more common in depressives), then the slow SAMe might be caused by poor recycling of homocysteine. There's a blood test for homocysteine.
Your body recycles homocysteine to methionine because dietary sources of methionine may be unreliable (in an historical sense, in evolutionary history). If that cycle gets stalled at homocysteine, only dietary supply can give you methionine. Moreover, homocysteine is doing damage that places even more burden on SAMe. It can set up a vicious cycle. If you think of homocysteine as the basic raw material, which is then methylated (to methionine), then adenosinated (to SAMe), it makes sense to have most of that core stuff already to use, rather than used up. That's just my way of looking at it."
I said,
"I'm not sure I understood that distinction about the slow SAMe cycle, but what I concluded was, not knowing if I'm a "slow cycler" or not that I'd hedge my bets and take both TMG AND methionine...using the TMG to counteract homocysteine for one thing, especially if I decrease folic acid.
You said,
"Yes. Good idea."
So, what do you think now?
I'm really intrigued with this methylation stuff, especially given the homocysteine/heart disease/depression connection. In that last discussion I was trying to sort out what Dr. Walsh said about folate, which you seemed to agree was contradictory to some of his other comments.
Since then, this past winter, when I wasn't taking TMG, MSM or methionine, I felt a good effect from folic acid, 800 mg/day, I thought. I wasn't taking methylcobalamin either. At least now I know that folate doesn't bother me, so whatever Walsh was saying there, I don't think I have to worry about it.
Of these things:
TMG
METHYLCOBALAMIN
FOLATE
METHIONINEwhat is the best combination to duplicate SAM-e (which I had good effect from in the past for about 2 months) AND prevent homocysteine buildup?
Is there a way of knowing when one might become OVERmethylated?
And how about MSM and taurine? Choline?
The pdf file you gave me says, "There is a metabolic relationship between methionine and MSM." http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_1_7/ai_83582816
And also,
"Sulfur containing compounds include methionine, cysteine, taurine, thiamin, biotin, alpha lipoic acid, glucosamine sulfate. They're all synthesized from methionine except thiamin and biotin."
Is it advisable to supplement with thiamin and biotin, or not?
This is interesting considering Louise Gittlelman's advice to women about excess copper and depression:
"Excessive copper ingestion impairs sulfur containing amino acids and increases the dietary requirement for SAA as well."
> Either methionine or TMG would promote natural formation of SAMe, if and only if, the liver enzyme that does this job is up to the task. It could be defective. Or down-regulated for some reason. Or, you may be deficient in the coenzymes required to perform that synthesis.
>
> In most people, TMG kills two birds with one stone. It restores the normal recycling of SAMe back to methionine via homocysteine, and, it reduces homocysteine concentrations that can cause circulatory damage and influence inflammatory responses.
>
> The sulphur cycle has to function normally to maintain the supply of the materials needed for the trans-sulfuration pathway that terminates in taurine (via cysteine). It is my belief that depressed people suffer not only from SAMe-related problems, but also from taurine/cysteine deficiency-related problems.
>
> > > I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me. I also tried 3 months of TAURINE at 500mg first thing in morning and I didn't notice much. I think it did help a little with anxiety..not sure. I tried this after the MSM and Glucosamine. I don't think there was any overlap..or not much.
> >
> > From what I remember about Larry's posts on the subject, that is not much taurine.
>
> No, it is not much taurine. Hardly enough to notice, IMHO, if you notice at all.
>
> > > So that, to me, indicates I'm hitting on where my problem might lie.
> > > I think having previously just taken the MSM and Glucosamine and taurine I might have had enough methyl stuff in my body?
> >
> > I don't think MSM is actually a methyl donor. Neither are glucosamine and taurine, are they?Don't see them on Sahelian's page on methyl donors: http://www.mind-boosters.com/chapter_10.html
>
> No, none of those is a methyl donor. They share one characteristic: sulphur.
>
> > It sounds like taurine, glucosamine and MSM are sulfur which can be used to increase synthesis of SAM-e, which is not the same thing even as a precursor.
>
> I can't see any of those increasing SAMe in any way.> > When you took SAM-e then, it was a unique experience. I think I would definitely try the TMG.
> >
> > JL
>
> Here's a good review of the various essential sulphur compounds:
>
> http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/7/1/22.pdf
>
> If that page won't open, go to: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11896744&query_hl=22
>
> Just click on the button under the journal title.
>
>
> The thing is, sulphur loves to oxidize. I think of depression as being characterized by excessive oxidation (oxidative stress). That's why antioxidants (e.g. polyphenols) and vitamins can have such effects as they do. That's why we need fish oil....our long chain PUFAs have been burned up (oxidized) long ago.
>
> Sulphur compounds are easy targets for oxidation. But sulphur bridges (or disulphide bonds across cystine residues) are essential for enzyme structure. Reactive sulphur aminos are in many enzyme active sites. Many antioxidants depend directly on sulphur activity (e.g. glutathione). Liver health depends on sulphur supply. Oxidation wrecks all this.
>
> I think that sulphur supplementation is a good thing. It's in finding the balance.....too much too quickly makes you feel yucky, IMHO.
>
> Perhaps a better angle is to unblock an internal logjam, i.e. homocysteine to methionine. TMG does that. B12 and folate do that together. A little cysteine (NAC) or taurine to smoothe out the load.
>
> Hard to get it right, but really worth a try, IMHO.
>
> Maybe a long-term SAMe supp is the answer for some.
>
> LarSAM-e is too expensive for me to experiment much with. It did help me in the past but then so did TMG. And I like the way MSM feels too. I'm not so sure about methylcobalamin.
What did you mean by too much sulfur makes you feel yucky? And for what reason?
When I was taking SAM-e, I noticed I didn't have my former craving for eggs.
Is it possible to get over-antioxidented? I noticed that article said something about MSM being a free radical scavenger, so that seems like another good reason to take it.
I'd really like to sort this out into some kind of plan as to what to try in what combinations. I haven't been very systematic about it in the past, and now don't even remember what I'd tried before either. So I kind of feel like I'm starting from scratch. And as usual, not very patient about trying just *one* thing at a time. :)
Actually right now I am also trying NADH for the first time. I'm taking 5 mg, 3 days now. The first day I didn't even feel it. Yesterday, I felt more anxious about an hour after I took it. Today, it's hard to say as I've had a lot of things on my mind. I don't feel the energy boost though, unfortunately. I was hoping to be speeding around my house cleaning by now. Now THAT would really be something! :)
JL
poster:JLx
thread:476058
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050510/msgs/502540.html