Posted by KaraS on January 30, 2005, at 19:51:29
In reply to Re: Fish Oil message » KaraS, posted by tealady on January 30, 2005, at 16:27:03
> > > Kara,
> > > I tried a few brands (5?) of fish oil and all gave me noticeable large acne.I couldn't get past one capsule a day, and even with that I had some acne.
> > > I'm taking flaxseed now and I only have a few spots on my body.
> > > I read somewhere that lack of VitB5 can cause the acne reaction with fish oil. I haven't tried large doses of B5 as yet with the fish oil to test it..just thought maybe it might help someone elso.
> > > What do you mean by less hormonal now?
> > > And by any chance did you start a multiB or more B5 when the acne disappeared? Just wondering if it would work or not.
> > >
> > > Best wishes, Jan
> > >
> >
> > Hi Jan,
> > It's amazing that you've been able to find some a possible explanation for the acne from fish oil. There have been several posts about it but no ideas of possible cause.
> >
> > I do take a B-complex capsule now. I've been wracking my brain trying to think of when I started taking it but I can't remember. Maybe that is the difference for me with the fish oil. I am not having acne from it now at 2 grams a day. I thought it might have been the brand. I've recently decreased from a B-100 complex to a B-50 so I'll see if that makes a difference at all.
> >
> > I had the worst acne from flax seed oil. I remember my face looked like it had these marble sized welts all over it. It was bizarre.
> >
> > Less hormonal was my inept way of saying menopausal - so probably less estrogen, progesterone, testosterone and DHEA.
> >
>
> Hi Kara,
>
> I suspected the less hormonal bit was happening..did you notice a lot of my posts to you on that dopamine stuff were based on lowering estrogen effects? It's just that your symptoms fitted :-)
>
> OK I'll throw in a little more detail in a hurry.
> I'm going on hols again soon and I'm all abstracted out!
> I reckon B5 (from my glance at posts on it) seems to work in over 80% of people with acne, at least those who posts on forums about it.
> Here's why with some of the other things one can be short on as well.
> But I suspect B5 is hit hard by stress as well.
> --------------------------------------
>
> Acne is thought to be linked to “fats” intake and the sex hormones.
> Coenzyme-A is used in both fatty acid metabolism and sex hormone synthesis.
> Coenzyme-A is formed from adenosine triphosphate, cysteine, and pantothenic acid(B5).
>
> So a bottleneck (limiting thingy) of B5 will mean eating more fats, as in chocolate, fish oils, EPO, flaxseed, “fatty” meals
> Or raging hormones..as in teenager, perimenopausal will “cause” acne if insufficient B5.
> It formed the impression from a glance over a few forums, that B5 supplementation (mega dose usually but start at 250mg- 500mg/day with a MultiB25 or MutliB50 for “balance” depending on your weight/sex/age) does actually work to stop the acne caused by EFA supplementation in over 80% of cases…but don’t quote me on this. In other cases maybe the adrenals are just too weak/exhausted to handle it…in which case just back off, take it slowly , and use a multiB25 with maybe 50 of B5. Note the adrenals also produce testosterone etc.
>
> Also “the skin of acne patients shows a greater activity of 5-alpha-reductase--the enzyme converting testosterone to the more potent androgen, dihydrotestosterone. This increased activity is independent of systemic levels of androgens and may explain the poor correlation between systemic levels of androgens and the severity of the acne lesions”
> http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-117.shtml
>
> “Leung (1997) suggested that a dietary deficiency of pantothenic acid could be the main cause of acne
> When there is a plentiful supply of pantothenic acid, both of these processes can be carried out, but when the person's diet does not supply enough panthothenic acid, the body has to adjust accordingly. Fatty acid metabolism will probably be reduced, lipids start to accumulate in the sebaceous glands, sebum builds up in the pores and leading to an acne outbreak”
>
> In the luteal (read PMS) phase of the menstrual cycle, progesterone in is secreted abundantly by the corpus lutcum. This naturally will take up a lot of pantothenic acid from the body's pantothenic pool reducing what is available for fatty acid metabolism.
>
> I used to find that vitB5 was a supplement I really benefitted from in my teenage years and 20’s.
> Also Siberian Ginseng (ground root powder) that I can no longer get! This also supported the adrenals.
> The synthesis of sex hormones uses pantothenic acid, leaving a relative shortage of it to efficiently metabolize fatty acids. This may be the cause of teenage acne.
>
> Stress is , of course, in there too as a cause of acne.
> To understand this, one should recall that in combating stress, the body will secrete glucocorticoids from the adrenal glands. The glucocorticoids, like the sex hormones, are derivatives of cholesterol, and increased demand for glucocorticoids will draw on the pantothenic acid pool. Lipid metabolism may therefore be reduced, leading to acne.
>
> Anything that uses more B5 actually increases our chances of acne.
>
> Although B5 appears to be the main limiting cofactor , Vitamin A (as in cod liver oil a couple of times a week) and zinc are also needed somewhere as cofactors I suspect. B6, biotin, and even niacinamide are in there as well in some people aapparently., and below there is a bit on carnitine, but I’m not sure on this. Anything “short” in the fatty acid metabolic chain I guess, but this usually is B5 in most people. P5p B6 in females over 40 would probably be up in there too.
> Personally I found fish oil > flaxseed>EPO> other fats ..eg chocolate as far as acne is concerned. But this too is individual and depends on our relative shortages in our individual bodies as far as our bodies determine our priorities in need of use.
>
>
> The low concentrations in stressed calves may reflect the role of pantothenic acid in adrenal function and corticosteroid synthesis (Goodman,
> 1960; Fidanza et al., 1978).
>
> http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/74/6/1358.pdf
> ”For nonruminants, stress and disease greatly increase requirements for vitamin B6, folicacid, pantothenic acid, and ascorbate.”
> “Even after prolonged feed restriction, calves in this study had higher concentrations of plasma folic acid, vitamin B12, pantothenic acid, vitamin B6, and ascorbate than plasma concentrations of shipping-stressed calves in a previous survey (Dubeski, 1992). This might suggest
> that stress has a larger impact than restricted feed intake on plasma vitamin concentrations and perhaps on vitamin status”
>
> http://www.coenzyme-a.com/research.html
> Binaghi, p., Cellina, G., Lo Cicero, G., Bruschi, F., & Penotti, M.; Evaluation of the Cholesterol-lowering effectiveness of pantethine in Perimenopausal Age; Minerva Med. June 1990; 81: 6, 475-9.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2359503&itool=iconabstr
>
> Controlled evaluation of pantethine, a natural hypolipidemic compound, in patients with different forms of hyperlipoproteinemia.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6365107&itool=iconabstr
>
>
>
>
> --------------------
> The role of carnitine in normal and altered fatty acid metabolism.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12751049&itool=iconabstr
> Carnitine is a low-molecular-weight compound obtained from the diet that also is biosynthesized from the essential amino acids lysine and methionine. Carnitine has been identified in a variety of mammalian tissues and has an obligate role in the mitochondrial oxidation of long-chain fatty acids through the action of specialized acyltransferases. Other roles for carnitine include buffering of the acyl coenzyme A (CoA)-CoA ratio, branched-chain amino acid metabolism, removal of excess acyl groups, and peroxisomal fatty acid oxidation. The growing body of evidence about carnitine function has led to increased understanding and identification of disorders associated with altered carnitine metabolism. Disorders of fatty acid oxidation and metabolism typically are associated with primary and secondary forms of carnitine deficiency. These disorders, which include increased lipolysis, increased lipid peroxidation, accumulation of acylcarnitines, and altered membrane permeability, have significant consequences for patients with myocardial diseases and kidney failure. Therapeutic administration of carnitine shows promise in treating selected groups of patients who have altered carnitine homeostasis, resulting in improved cardiac function, increased exercise capacity, reduced muscle cramps, and reduced intradialytic complications.
> PMID: 12751049 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Jan,
Thanks so much for all of this information! I wish I knew this many years ago when I used to have trouble with acne. Oh well...80% of the people who had acne from fish oil got rid of the problem with B5 - that's very impressive. I generally take a multi vitamin daily and I used to take a B100 as well. (Now I'm taking a B50 instead.) I do have some individual B5 at home. I was taking it before when I was worried about my adrenals.
I will definitely start on it again when I increase my dosage of fish oil. I'll let you know how it goes.
Have a great time on holiday! Talk to you when you get back.
Kara
poster:KaraS
thread:427722
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050101/msgs/450324.html