Posted by finelinebob on September 4, 2006, at 19:22:50 [reposted on September 16, 2006, at 9:25:22 | original URL]
In reply to Lou's response to aspects of flb's post-flsmt, posted by Lou Pilder on September 4, 2006, at 6:14:04
> It is written here,[...a false statement is uncivil...{2 2=5} is a false statement...thearfore, {2 2=5} is uncivil...].
> The question before us is what is meant by {2 2=5} being uncivil?Precisely this:
All A are B
X is a member of the set A
Therefore, X is Bor
A false statement is uncivil.
2 2=5 is a false statement.
Therefor, stating that 2 2=5 is uncivil.And let me be clear -- no one has asked me what the sum of 2 and 2 is, so I am quite clearly making a statement, not answering a question.
Unless I intend some bizarre sort of mathematical civil disobedience, trying to create a context in which incorrect mathematical statements and civility have a bearing on each other is silly.
It does, however, point out the logical fallacies that can arise from arguing from absolutes.
> So in this discussion, one putting forth the accusation ...Before I can understand you any further, I need to know when does a statement become an accusation? Might context and intent have anything to do with that?
> The mission of the forum is education ...And since some people think "I" statements are too warm and fuzzy or whatever, when people resort to making depersonalized statements it becomes unclear whether logical fallacies are based upon mistaken understandings or knowlingly false statements. Thus the need to qualify, contextualize, and accept authorship and therefore responsibility for what one says here.
Taking ownership and responsibility for what you have to say, I must add, is an admirable aspect of your behaviors on this board.
> I am a Jew and I feel accused and put down when I read the accusation toward the Jews in questin here. So when the accusation that [...{the} Jews...]is written here, I am a Jew and then is not that accusation made to include me?So, in the same form as above, using some of your language from the above quote:
"{the} Jews" have Characteristic A.
"I [Lou] am a Jew"
Therefore, Lou has Characteristic A.If the statements in question are of that logical format, then yes, whatever characteristic is in question, then you most certain are included. If the first statement was made inspite of the author knowing it was false, you are in the right to take offense and seek some redress or remedy within the rules of this board.
If the statement followed some other logical structure, then the situation may be other than you represent it to be.
So, Lou, to put things frankly, you have a valid point which I completely support. If the posts/statements to which you refer have been deleted from Babbleland, none of us not involved at the time have the information or the opportunity to evaluate what was stated for what it was completely within the context it was presented. We have no chance to infer intent or, immeasurably better, ask the original poster what the poster intended by making that statement. We have no means of telling whether the statement made was that of someone misinformed or intently stating untruths. We have no means of whether the poster was defaming Jews in general and, with respect to you, in particular or consequentially.
If The Powers That Be (whether that be Dr. Bob or the U of C or whatever body might have some extra/legal responsibility for this site) determine that the matter you raise was not sufficiently addressed and the feedback of the Babble community would be valuable, then yes, I support you 100%. Those posts in their entirety should be restored, if they were removed.
Then, I believe, I could further decide whether these "statements" (such as "have Characteristic A") are accusatory or defamatory and evaluate any further support I might give to you.
That is the limit of my support at this time, however, because twice you have quoted me out of context within these boards and used these quotes, I feel, to further your own interests with no regard to my own. To me, it does not matter whether I believe your use of my words for a purpose other than my stated intentions was a fair use for a similar purpose or whether it was a gross misrepresentation of my stated intentions. That you did so was enough, for me, to not grant you the same level of trust I would normally extend to any other fellow Babblelander.
I would like to be able to express more support for you, Lou, because from the little I can infer from what has been said by you and people's responses to you that what occurred could have been genuinely hostile towards you in particular or Jews in general, and that would be troublesome to me. I'll continue to read what you have to say as well, because you may still have something to present in this forum that would build my trust in you. But for now, I feel your responses to me have given me cause to question what you have to say in general.
And that saddens me.
poster:finelinebob
thread:686504
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060826/msgs/686510.html