Posted by bozeman on April 10, 2003, at 1:01:24
In reply to Re: blocked for week » fayeroe , posted by Dr. Bob on April 9, 2003, at 20:45:53
. . . I've been trying to come up with a way to address the leeway issue, see:
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> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20030404/msgs/216665.html
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> IMO, it's not so easy...
>
> BobHello Dr. Bob --
I am puzzled about the whole "A could ask B not to post to them, and that would be OK" subject. My *original* take on what you were saying was, I could ask any particular person NOT to respond to my post, as long as I do it civilly. Correct so far? OK. Here's where I get confused. I *thought* I saw something (at least twenty posts ago) that meant such "don't post to me requests" would be *thread specific*. The dialogue I have been reading above appears to be more permanent and globally-orientated in nature: That is to say that if I ever, once, ask someone not to direct a post to me, that it means "forever", and if five years from now, that person directs an innocent, two-word post to me, like "Well said!" then they are de facto being uncivil and subject to being blocked. Alternatively, and perhaps more disturbing, anyone could conceivably post a message addressed to the community as a whole, with the premeditated intent to rebuff or exclude a particular poster. To me, this seems somewhat unreasonable, considering the stated "purpose" of these boards as a mutual support community, and at worst . . . . well, it reminds me of the stuff that happened in school on the playground. "Let's play a game and not let so-and-so play." Now I am willing to bet -- no, I think I *know* -- that cruel playground situations are NOT the intent of *anyone* who has voiced that they would be in favor of a "don't post to me" policy, and I'm not for one minute saying that it was their intent. I'm looking at it from the outside. Unless carefully defined and impartially applied, that's how it could easily appear to an uninvolved observer. Much less how it would feel to the person who was told not to respond before the question was even asked. Hopefully my fears are unfounded, and "thread-specific" requests would only be made as needed, not as a global prophylaxis against all future communications from a person.
Please understand, I have not yet made up my mind how I feel about the "don't post me" discussion. I don't believe I have a preference for one way or the other at this time. Also, I am *not* thinking of any particular poster on any board as I write this. Please, don't anyone read this and think, "She wrote that about me, I know she did," because you would be mistaken.
I feel I should point out that, to me, the two scenarios of "don't post me for a thread's life" vs. "don't post me forever" seem too far apart to be considered as a single option. It seems one thing for me to post something, get several posts in response, not be comfortable where the thread is going, and ask someone in particular to *not* continue to direct posts to me about it for the remainder of that thread or discussion --- and another thing entirely for me to say to them, effectively, "don't you ever speak to me again." The first is option is, from a communications and negotiation standpoint, more of an "agree to disagree" stance on a point (which has it's productive value in certain situations, by the way) -- while the second comes across more as a statement or judgement about the person, instead of about what was being discussed. I hope I've stated this clearly enough that you take my meaning as a desire to separate the behavior from the person -- to separate the situation from a global value judgement, because that is what I intended to say, and what I got that you originally meant when this subject came up several days ago.
I absolutely agree that some means is needed to allow situations to be defused more easily and consistently between two posters who never seem to be on the same wavelength, and consequently irritate each other. As the board grows more rapidly (from my lurking days, it has definitely gotten more busy and more populated), the presence of a single human moderator becomes more and more sporadic and unreliable due to the sheer number of posts involved. Let's be real, Dr. Bob, you must not have a life, or you are the most dedicated person on the planet. Everyone is entitled to a day off occassionally, and some "breather room" where the "world" won't cave in if they aren't there to keep it turning. In this "Babble World" you are the de facto Creator, Moderator, Administrator, Judge, and Judgement. That's a heavy load for one person to effectively carry, twenty-four hours a day, and I suspect the board's gotten busier and bigger than you envisioned. I'm not at all being critical, please understand that. I just don't know how you do it, or even more importantly, how you will continue to do it. Since this community has come to mean something to me personally, as a (relatively? nothing's perfect) safe place I can retreat to to discuss my deepest problems and fears . . . with people whose opinions I value . . . I have an interest in preserving it's existence as a functional, supportive, reliably safe place. So, that said, this entire thread wouldn't exist if some adaptation weren't needed. That being the case, giving "support" to each other would seem better achieved by giving people an escape (voluntary or not) out of an escalating situation. The posters could at another time interact freely and civilly, until and unless the issue comes up again, in which case the "cool down" clause might come into play once again, and one tells the other "don't post to me about this anymore on this thread, OK? I need a break." That would seem more workable in the long run than "don't you ever speak to me again." The latter doesn't seem appropriate for a mental health board, but that's just my opinion, and anyone's entitled to disagree without taking my opinion personally.
For the situation at hand, let me ask specifically how you would handle the following situations. Once those questions are answered, I'll be able to decide if I'm "for" or "against" the idea of "don't message me again," whatever form it ultimately takes.
Example for illustration: (screen names used are intended to be fictitious. If I inadvertently use a real screen name, I apologize in advance.)
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THREAD 1: (started by A, joined by B and C)
A: ------- I hate my life, I'm so lonely since my divorce, my therapist doesn't understand me, and my meds make me hallucinate.
B: ------- I thought you said you were going to find a new therapist -- weren't you seeing your ex-husband the counsellor? Didn't he leave you for another woman? And isn't your pdoc his twin brother? I dunno, but it sounds like trouble to me. I know some good docs I could recommend if you're interested.
C: ------- Say, A, what meds are you taking anyway? I think Smilesalot is a great drug, and if you took it you probably wouldn't care if your therapist doesn't understand you.
A: ------- I know you really like it, C, and I'm glad it's worked so well for you, but Smilesalot has some pretty serious side effects, it makes some people look like Jack Nicholson aka The Joker in the Batman movie, and my job *depends* on me keeping a consistent physical appearance. I just don't want to risk those side effects. (who knows, maybe A is a TV anchorwoman?) Besides, I'm going to see another doc in two months, and I don't want to start a new med right before leaving the old doctor. And, my old pdoc is always trying to get me to take it!!! He's in cahoots with my ex, he has to be. Of course, I should have seen that coming, since they're brothers, but he has an excellent reputation, and good pdocs are hard to find. Sigh. Wish I knew what to do. Why is this happening???! I hate my life. I'm so miserable.
B: ------- I guess you could try meditating, too, until you can get in to see the new doctor. That helps some people.
C: ------- I really think you should just get you some Smilesalot!!! What could it hurt?
A: ------- Meditation just makes me more anxious. I can't shut my mind off.
C: ------- Why don't you try the Smilesalot? It's great stuff, really helped me and another poster I know.
B: ------- What about aerobics? Or breathing exercises? Do they help?
A: ------- I have asthma, so aerobics make me turn blue. Breathing exercises stress me out for the same reason, afraid I'll turn blue. I look terrible blue. (that appearance thing again, hm?)
C: ------- I know where you can get Smilesalot cheap, perfectly legal so Dr. Bob won't mind, in your own country, and it's a toll-free number. How's that for a deal?
A: ------- I know you mean well, C, and I'm really happy Smilesalot worked for you. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but please don't keep urging me to take a drug you know I have reservations about. I'm very upset and sensitive about this situation, and frustrated already, so please don't post to me anymore on this thread, OK?
B: ------- When I'm frustrated I do yoga like there's no tomorrow, and I always feel better.
A: ------- Yeah, yoga makes me feel better, too. I'll give that a try again. Thanks for reminding me.Dr. Bob: In this case, as you envision the "new" rule, is A acting appropriately by asking D to not post her any more on that thread? Is it permissible and civil of her to do so (I guess if not, then the rule itself violates the civility rules . . . hmmm)?
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THREAD 2: (started by A, joined by B and C)
A: ------- I hate my life, I'm so lonely since my divorce, my therapist doesn't understand me, . . (etc. continues identically to Thread 1 until this point: )
C: ------- I know where you can get Smilesalot cheap, perfectly legal so Dr. Bob won't mind, in your own country, and it's a toll-free number. How's that for a deal?
A: ------- I know you mean well, C, and I'm really happy Smilesalot worked for you. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but please don't keep urging me to take a drug you know I have reservations about. I'm very upset and sensitive about this situation, and frustrated already, so please don't post to me ever again, OK?
B: ------- When I'm frustrated I do yoga like there's no tomorrow, and I always feel better.
A: ------- Yeah, yoga makes me feel better, too. I'll give that a try again. Thanks for reminding me.Dr. Bob: The only intended difference in example thread 1 and 2 is "on this thread" vs. "ever again". Is A's statement to C appropriate and civil, under the proposed rule?
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THREAD 3: (started by D, joined by B, C, and E, but not A, as A is forbidden by D to enter the conversation)
D: ------- I just got the worst news. My wife just called and said she was leaving me to join the peace corps!!! All these years, I wondered why she never really seemed happy the way other men's wives do. I just don't know what I'm going to do, I'm so embarrassed for our kids, and for myself, and so angry with her. I'm so angry I can't think straight. I just want to break things. How could she leave us like this??! If I never see that woman again it'll be too soon!!! And by the way, A, don't you respond to me about this, I'm tired of hearing about your ex-husband-who-left-you-for-another-woman and his-twin-brother-your-pdoc saga. There's no similarity whatsoever in our situations.
B: ------- Ouch, man, bummer, women are different from men, that's for sure. My wife thinks we're from totally different planets, Mars and Venus or something like that. Sorry she left, dude, especially under those circumstances, but maybe you'll feel better soon.
C: ------- Have you talked to your wife? Does she want a divorce, or does she just want some time for herself? Maybe she's just going through a tough time and needs to think. Then again, you said she never seemed happy like other wives do. Maybe in time you'll get through it, and your whole family will be stronger? What a good example for your children to see their mother so dedicated to helping others, and their father so dedicated to making sure their lives are safe and happy! But talk to her, at least, and find out what she's really thinking. It may not be what you think, at all.
E: ------- Looks to me like she was pretty clear in what she was thinking. She wants to leave, that's what she said, right?
D: ------- Yeah . . . sortof. But she's terrible about saying what's really on her mind -- she always tells me it's something ridiculous that has nothing to do with the real problem. Maybe you're right, B, maybe I should talk to her. Maybe she just freaked out and she'll be fine. She's been at her mother's for two months taking care of her mother's broken hip, and she told me last week that the kids are getting along so well that she doesn't even feel like we need her to come back!! I haven't told her that they are just putting on a brave front for her, the youngest cries himself to sleep every night missing her. OK, I'll talk to her. And I won't break anything. I promise. Thanks.Dr. Bob -- in this situation, is D civil and justified, and living within the (new) rule to forbid A from posting to him? How can he *know* what she would have said or not said? Does it *matter* what she would have said, or not said, if he doesn't want to talk with her? How would you apply the rule this time?
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THREAD 4: (started by D, joined by B and E, but not A or C, as they are forbidden by D to enter the conversation)
D: ------- I just got the worst news. My wife just called and said she was leaving me to join the peace corps!!! All these years, I wondered why she never really seemed happy the way other men's wives do. I just don't know what I'm going to do, I'm so embarrassed for our kids, and for myself, and so angry with her. I'm so angry I can't think straight. I just want to break things. How could she leave us like this??! If I never see that woman again it'll be too soon!!! And by the way, don't any women respond to me about this. I need a man's perspective.
B: ------- Ouch, man, bummer, women are different from men, that's for sure. My wife thinks we're from totally different planets, Mars and Venus or something like that. Sorry she left, dude, especially under those circumstances, but maybe you'll feel better soon.
E: ------- Looks to me like she was pretty clear in what she was thinking. She wants to leave, that's what she said, right?
D: ------- Yeah . . . sortof. But she's terrible about saying what's really on her mind -- she always tells me it's something ridiculous that has nothing to do with the real problem.
B: ------- Women can be like that sometimes. But then again, so can we. Sometimes, I mean.
D: ------- I just don't understand her. If she wants something from me, why doesn't she just say so? Why can't she just say what's on her mind instead going on and on and on about things that have nothing to do with why she's really upset? Does she think I don't have feelings? I do everything I think a good husband and father is supposed to, but it doesn't seem to matter, she's still never seemed happy. It's not enough, I guess.
E: ------- Oh, well, women. Can't live with 'em . . . .
D: ------- That's for sure. Guess I'd better call the lawyer. Thanks for listening.Dr. Bob -- in this situation, is D civil and justified, and living within the (new) rule to forbid A and B (and all other women) from posting to him? How can he *know* what they would have said or not said? Does it *matter* if he doesn't want to talk with them? How would you apply the rule this time?
____________________________________I really, really am not trying to be difficult. I just really don't get how you are proposing that this would actually work in the real world. Please explain if possible.
I apologize profusely for the Odyssean quality of this post . . . and for those of you still with me, thanks for reading (and thinking) it through.
With greatest respect and goodwill
bozeman
poster:bozeman
thread:216901
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20030404/msgs/218083.html