Posted by g_g_g_unit on August 27, 2012, at 8:32:03
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » g_g_g_unit, posted by SLS on August 26, 2012, at 7:48:57
> > > At some point, I realized just how great an achievement it was to survive with this illness. It was a bitter pill to swallow to lose my intellect and operate at a level way beneath those around me.
> > >
> > > I push. I push. I push. I constantly push. It grows tiresome, but I keep pushing. I often succeed. Succeed in what? I succeed in trying. Failure to achieve the goals set forth by others is okay with me. It has to be. I must acknowledge that my illness places upon me limitations that most of the people around me do not have. Thus, my expectation of myself is to try to use all of what little God gives me to work with.
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> > This is something I struggle with. My psychiatrist (who I concurrently see for psychodynamic therapy) noted that my 'self-knowledge' of what I had suffered through was not sufficient enough for me; that I needed external validation of my suffering.
>
> Most of your validation must come from within, especially because so few people around you understand the degree of pain and impairment you are suffering on a daily basis for years at a time. I hope you find validation here. You try so hard. I was fortunate to have doctors from various research facilities who validated me and had an understanding of how debilitating my illness is and how hard I try to remain alive and functioning independently.I think my problem is that I hide symptoms from my psychiatrist. I was so desperate to have my ADD treated (getting an rx. for a stimulant in Australia is such a feat in itself that it seemed like a viable survival tactic at the time) that I never revealed the extent of my borderline-agoraphobia/phobic anxiety. He knows I suffer from OCD, but may be under the impression it is more an obsessive/anxiety issue, whereas the degree of daily avoidance I go through has reduced my quality-of-life to next-to-nil. He has never offered me any kind of affirmation of my suffering (other than a comment on my intelligence), though I thought perhaps this went part-in-parcel with his psychodynamic approach. I was more upset because he ended our last session with the aforementioned commentary on how I needed to develop some sense of internal validation to fight off constant projections, irrational fantasies, etc. and that no person could offer me that other than myself. Maybe it was what I needed to hear, but it was difficult because, like I say (partly through my own fault), he doesn't have a precise picture of the degree of my suffering.
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> > He's right. But then again, am I as well? How is it not possible to compare yourself to the achievements of others?
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> It is difficult not to compare. Perhaps it is not such a bad thing to compare, as long as you don't judge yourself critically as a result of that comparison. Perhaps "acknowledgment" is a better word to use than "comparison". It would be unrealistic not to acknowledge the achievements of others. It would be equally unrealistic not to acknowledge your challenges and your own achievements in working with them. Acceptance is difficult, but healthy. However, denial can be dangerous when realization hits. It can lead to episodes of suicidality. Discovery is also important. It is helpful to discover what it is that you *can* do.Yes. I sometimes operate in denial, and can very easily be drawn into states of suicidality when more functional people (usually viable vessels for my own idealized self-projections) enter my orbit. It is wretched and humiliating to both withdraw from and to be in society. It becomes a double bind. I would hate to denigrate your suffering Scott, but do you think that perhaps there's been some social shift which has made it even more difficult for people of my age/generation (I'm 26), given how materialistic and narcissistic (in a morally neutral sense) current youth culture is, and the greater opportunities for self-actualizing, leisure activity, etc. (i.e. less emphasis on family, trades, people marrying later, etc.)?
I am only speculating, and don't want to compare myself to you. Maybe I am wrong and things were equally difficult when you were my age.
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> > I don't think most people credit suffering (and its endurance) as an achievement, unless you survived the Holocaust (I'm Jewish, so I hope that doesn't cause offence) or cancer or the like, or otherwise achieved something notable in spite of your illness (Eric's example of John Nash). There is an evident ideological bias in who society is willing to accept as palatable victims or sufferers or martyrs or saints.
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> Yes. Mental illness has historically been considered to be a sign of weakness, cowardice, or defect. Such things are not celebrated.
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> > I'm probably just being narcissistic.
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> I don't understand how you could come to this conclusion. I don't see narcissism in you. Quite the contrary. I'm not a psychiatrist, though. Perhaps I am missing something.I was told I have some kind of narcissistic personality disorder by a therapist once - I forget the phrase, but it was a subtype that involved more guilt and inner conflict. I guess I see it in my constant desire for external validation and recognition of my achievements/suffering, envy towards others, the rage, bitterness and (often) inability to see others as something other than projections of myself. Maybe those are natural responses to extreme illness and suffering. My psychiatrist doesn't like dishing out labels and hasn't really confirmed or denied; he said 'narcissism' is just too multi-faceted, dynamic and intrinsic to depression to be boiled down to a pathology.
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> > But, as much as I love and respect my psychiatrist, I sometimes hesitate (to put it gently) when he, well, implies that part of my inability to get well derives from a 'lack of effort' on my part, and that, ultimately, man must consign himself to the rule of reason.
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> I would LOL if this weren't such a sad thing for you to be confronted with. If the dysfunction in your neurobiology were successfully treated, you couldn't prevent yourself from getting well no matter how hard you tried.I guess he used it in reference to my inability (or unwillingness or whatever) to challenge my cognitive biases. I must admit, he sometimes uses it as a cop-out (for example, when I complained of feeling less motivation to do things on an SSRI, he linked it to effort), though I guess that goes with his training as a therapist; on the plus side, he is more careful with his approach in terms of (over)medicating.
I think next time I will need to be more clear about how much I'm suffering with regards to OCD, and how I don't feel it's related to effort (or lack thereof) at this point.
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> > What does that mean? Who's rule of reason?
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> Not mine. But then again, who am I?
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> > Is all suicide, by default, unreasonable?
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> No. I believe in autoeuthanasia. However, it is absolutely true that MDD or BD are mind-altering illnesses that affect perception and judgment. It would be difficult to filter out this neurobiological state to be able to evaluate one's fitness to make such an irrevocable decision.Perhaps you are right. At the moment, it feels like the most rational thing in the world to me, but I acknowledge that Parnate withdrawal must be playing a part in that, so am just doing everything I can to bide my time until I see him again. Do you think that MDD can affect judgement towards others, i.e. induced mild, well, 'paranoia' about being hated, unwanted, etc.? Because as much as my family are prone to acting like d-bags and enforcing that idea at times, it is that sense of alienation (and my inability to escape from them) which is currently driving my desire to finally just end things.
I have also befriended a girl I'm very attracted to, and while I continue to see her out of loneliness and an emotional closeness we've developed, a lack of reciprocal feeling on her part has left me feeling even more ashamed and worthless because of my affliction. I wonder if her presence in my life is ultimate worse for me, but I guess that's a complicated issue, and probably something for another thread ..
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> > If you fail to accept an illness that compromises your ability to self-actualize,
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> I LOVE your statement here. It is almost impossible to self-actualize and experience the joys of peak experiences in such states. Depression is a thief.Well when it becomes ongoing for long enough, the inability to self-actualize isn't restricted to those states. I am having difficulty coming to terms with the idea that perhaps my life will always be defined by a battle with depression, OCD, ADD, that it's time I gave up on my dreams, because while I'm still young, I've missed out on so much integral career time/experience in the field I once loved and dreamed of working in. I do not have the body of knowledge that others have.
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> > the gap between who I had intended to be, and who I've become (?) makes me feel less intent on continuing. I think it's a profoundly difficult thing to come to terms with and I admire you for it Scott, but I question how much more fight I have in me.
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> :-(
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> Try to hold closely to your soul the memories of what life can be without depression, anxiety, and OCD - assuming that you were ever fortunate enough to know such a time. I truly believe that it is my memories of remission that helped me to keep going. I knew the potential rewards of persistence. I guard these memories.
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> I really want to see you well. Please don't give up.
>Yes, there were such times. But so much has been clouded over by anger and bitterness over lost time, family conflict and hostility, and pure fear. I feel like a prisoner at home, and cannot leave. Anyway, your sentiment made me cry. It's more sincere, understanding, non-judgmental encouragement than my parents have ever offered me.
Please excuse me if this is too much information, but given my predilection for forming friendships with older males in real life, it suddenly dawned on me that you operate as a kind of online father figure for me. It makes sense, since I always take your encouragement and praise so personally. My own father has always been really emotionally distant and unnurturing.
poster:g_g_g_unit
thread:1023768
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20120818/msgs/1024292.html