Posted by Elroy on January 8, 2010, at 15:45:12
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » Elroy, posted by casse on January 4, 2010, at 18:12:06
> I agree that LDN is not a firstline treatment for depression or anxiety.
>
> I also don't care whether the way it makes me feel is placebo effect or not. I just wish that the "placebo effect" had been elevated mood instead of irritability and agitation. If that were the case I wouldn't care about the why, just about the results.
>
> And I'm extatic that my exaggerated immune response to poison ivy has been helped by it. For the first time in many years I didn't look like a piece of wrinkled red leather this summer.
>
> Thanks for posting all of those great links!
>
> BTW, if you don't mind me asking, what originally generated your interest in LDN? Are you using it yourself or just an advocate?
>Answer One:
RE:
"I also don't care whether the way it makes me feel is placebo effect or not. I just wish that the "placebo effect" had been elevated mood instead of irritability and agitation. If that were the case I wouldn't care about the why, just about the results."
First of all, placebo effects do NOT last forever. A placebo effect is by nature a short-term (days, weeks, months, maybe even several months) mental aspect of your mind "fooling your body" that "XYZ" is working. Eventually the placebo effect goes away and you are back to your original symptoms (only now usually feeling worse as you had the "false break" during the placebo effect!
Also, the fact that you are NOT having the "elevated mood effects" the next day (or at least for the main part of the day) is the perfect evidence that your dosage of LDN is NOT performing its physiological (laws physics) activity.
The whole process of LDN is that the LDN when taken (at whatever time) SHUTS DOWN your Endorphin production. Completely. Totally. For about 3 - 4 hours. Then as the LDN wears off, the body resumes secreting Endorphins... but now with a vengeance. It is the "Adaptation Process" like Bodybuilders and Powerlifters experience through weight lifting. When they do heavy weight training they are NOT building their muscles up. No. They are tearing their muscles down!!!! Then the body's response is to kick in the "Adaptation Process" --- to not just build the muscle back up to where it was, but to make those muscles bigger and stronger so that the stress those muscles received - if it happens again, won't be so severe in the body. The weigh trainer has to help out by (1) RESTING those muscle parts long enough for the re-building to take effect, (2) eat plenty of protein (nitrogen - the only thing that builds MUSCLE) and caloric intake in general, and (3) increase the poudages for that particular lift once it starts to get moderately "easy" to lift that (i.e., if you find it hard to curl 50-lbs and work at it - using the above principles, your bicep and forearm muscles will grow and get stronger... to a certain degree. If you never increase the weight (to 60-lbs then to 70-lbs, etc.) then your biceps/forearms will not get any stronger nor any bigger - no matter how much rest and nutrition you give them.
Now that is a basic - but somewhat simplistic - explanation --- other factors come into play.... like the stronger that you get, the MORE rest that you need). I use this example as I am a forme competing (amateur) powerlifter. When I first started working out for powerliftingI would train my legs (squats) twice a week. As I got stronger I had to back off to training them once a week and then back off yet later to once every ten days and by the time I "retired from the game" was squatting only once every TWO WEEKS (and my poundages consistently and significantly increased).
BUT... for OUR benefit... that same type of Adaptation Process occurs with the CORRECT workings of LDN. Taking a dose NOT TOO LOW but NOT TOO HIGH causes the body's Endorphin production to shut down for 3 - 4, maybe 5, hours - depending on the individual. (You really need to read the couple books out there on LDN and not info from a single doctor who is doing his own interpretations - or from forum comments even... I really would hope that you don't believe a word that I am telling you --- until you do your own research and verify that it IS true --- but especially the book "The Promise Of Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy"). Dr. Bihari invented Naltrexone and then developed the concept - through further studying and clinical research the concept of LDN and the benefits that it has ... which are completely different than that of full-strength Naltrexone. He is definitely AN expert in LDN. But many LDN professionals (and I concur with them) today believe that Dr. Ian Zagon is THE leading expert (along with a close second maybe being Dr. Chris Steele of the UK). And the one thing that they all have in agreement is that 1.5 mg - for humans- is the lowest level one can take that will cause the body's Endorphin production to completely stop. In some cases (especially larger individuals - like myself), 1.5 mg doses might result only in a partial, quite small reduction in Endorphin production. So - if that were the case - I would feel only a "small return in my investment" at the 1.5mg dose. Going to the 3.0 mg dosage may help tremendously - say bring Endorphin production to a 70% halt... but only by going to the full 4.5mg dosage do I experience the COMPLETE shut-down (for said time frame0 of Endorphins.
AND.....
You are NOT going to be getting the Adaptation Process kick-in by the body unless you achieve the full shut-down of the Endorphin secretion. So the very fact that you are NOT experiencing the elevated mood effect and are "irritable and agitated" is the scientific proof that you are NOT experiencing the effects of LDN - at least not anywhere near a truly effective level.
(At my current 1.5 mg levels - and being a BIG guy - I am not "irritable and agitated"... but also am NOT yet experiencing the elevated mood aspects of LDN... and that is simply because I do NOT believe that I will reach total shutdown of Endorphin secretion until I get to 3.0 mg or even 4.5 mg... BTW, one of those advanced LDN doctors in his practice has on a number of occasions used as high as 7.5 mg of LDN to achieve patient shutdown of Endorphins to get the FULL recuperative effects of the LDN.... With one patient - and he granted that these were some REALLY BIG people - he got up to 10.0 mg and the patient still experienced the LDN process, but anything over that caused the higher LDN to begin to act like full-strength Naltrexone - and he ended up backing that patient back down to 7.5 mg as he was doing fine at that level with having full Endorphin shutdown).
Even if you had NOTHING wrong with you, shutting down the Endorphin secretion and its resurrection later at a much more major level is going to cause that elevated mood in anyone (a specific form of Endorphins is what is released during orgasm that gives one that ULTRA ELEVATED MOOD feeling). So, no... it is not going to be quite like that, but you'll feel definitely "Good"... and by no means "irritable and agitated".
Are you by any chance taking your ultra low LDN during the day? If so, you may be getting a partial reduction in your normal daily rhythm of Endorphin - but just enough cut back to make you feel "irritable and agitated".
There's TWO main reasons for taking LDN at bedtime. One is that since your body is going to shutdown secretion of Endorphins, wouldn't you rather that occur at night while you are asleep rather than during the day while you are up an trying to function with life - while having NO circulating Endorphins... and Two: Our body does MOST 9by far) of its Endorphin secretion during the last 3-4 hours of sleep (it reads your declining Melatonin levels and rising Cortisol levels to recognize that you are going to be waking in 3 hours or so and begins massive release of Endorphins to get into your system for the coming day.
With the shutdown (completely!) of your Endorphin secretion process (let's say from 1 AM to 4 AM) and then getting the Adaptation Process to kick in getting a tremendously massive Endorphin secretion that will not only be extremely more Endorphins but also the secretion process will last longer through the morning (even into afternoon) hours to insure that you have plenty of Endorphins in case something like THAT stress happens again (which it IS going to happen again... the very next night!)
And Endorphins do a lot more than just give you an "elevated mood"....
Quote:
Beta-endorphins are important regulators of the immune system. Naltrexone, which is a pure antagonist to opiates, causes an artificial blockade of the endorphin/opioid receptors in the brain. However, unlike the normal (~50 mg) dose of naltrexone used to treat drug addiction, which maintains this blockade continuously for 24 hours (preventing any derived pleasure from taking the forbidden drugs), low dose naltrexone (~3 mg to 4.5 mg) blocks the endorphin receptors for only a couple of hours. During that time, endorphins fail to attach to the receptors and the body compensates by creating more endorphins. (Note that Dr. Bihari prescribes LDN to be taken at bedtime to take advantage of the body's pre-dawn boost in endorphin production.)
End Quote:Quote:
Once the low dose naltrexone dose has been metabolized, the body is left with a (much higher) "normal" amount of endorphins as compared to healthy controls, which consequently "normalizes" the immune function. The link between endorphins and immune system regulation is a good candidate for more research.
End Quote:Quote:
More accurately, LDN is believed to restore normality to the immune system, which leads to correct immune system behavior. (In other words, it is an "Immune System Modulator" - it raises deficient Immune Systems to optimal levels AND decreases highly elevated Immune Systems down to optimal levels - Elroy)
End Quote:Another good book: "Google LDN ! : How an overlooked Drug Relieves Cancer, AIDS,MS, and Immune System Disorders for a Dollar a Day" by Joseph Wouk (2009)... Foreword by Bernard Bihari, M.D.
Elroy
poster:Elroy
thread:919880
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20100103/msgs/932935.html