Posted by yxibow on July 4, 2009, at 4:44:57
In reply to Re: long term Remeron use » yxibow, posted by 49er on July 3, 2009, at 7:54:27
>
> <<There was even an NIH drug trial of it here which came to the conclusion that there was insufficient evidence of any particular efficacy and the trials were too small in the first place.>>
>
> Personally, I wouldn't trust an NIH drug trial as those folks aren't the most objective regarding alternative health. Don't get me wrong as I am not convinced that Empower Plus works but at the same time, I wouldn't rely on NIH to tell me if these supplements were effective or not.
Entitled to your opinion...But plenty of "natural" substances have been investigated in mainstream medication for possible use... such as what became Taxol (chemotherapy for breast cancer) -- and it doesn't come without quite a set of side effects.
>
> <<The ingredients are all there to be searched in Canadian databases, they're nothing that you couldn't put together yourself from vitamin and mineral supplements.>>> I agree. I remember studying the ingredients and thought that for what they were offering, it was definitely way overpriced.
Speaks for itself, agreed.
> << Personally I think the marketing of it which has caused stabilized patients to come off their medications and revert to a serious state is reprehensible but there are few ways that the FDA can do anything except attempt to stop marketing a substance as a "cure" for anything.>>
>
> I am wondering if it is due to the fact that they encourage people to taper way too fast in transitioning to empower plus.Well, no its because some people with severe schizophrenia have gone off all their medications for some "promised cure" and have died.... But that's my opinion anyhow.
> When I foolishly tried Label Me Sane Products, they advocated a 10% taper per week from the starting dose. That would have been a disaster for me.>
> >
> <<I haven't heard anything about Remeron and osteoporosis, if it was that sensitive a connection there would be a black box.>>
>
> Not necessarily. Look at how long it took black box warnings to appear on SSRIS?
They've put black boxes on three classes of drugs, antidepressants, anti-epileptics, and I believe Celebrex, the one remaining COX-2 inhibitor because of *ss protection, among a host of medications.
It took years to warn patients on Mellaril, an older antipsychotic that it has a possibility of high QTc irregularity while Geodon was pulled and restudied under another 4000 people and the risk of torsades de pointes is extremely minimal.
SSRIs have had million-patient hours of use for two decades, TCAs for three, and benzodiazepines for 50 years.Laetrile, an "alternative" treatment from apricot pits (cyanide precursors) has killed people.
> I agree that what looks like to be a rare occurrence doesn't warrant a black box warning. But you can't just automatically dismiss it either.
>
> I suffered a hearing loss from Remeron. A few years ago, I couldn't find any information on ototoxic meds. Now, it is more common and includes antidepressants. I still can't find specific information but my point is that just because you haven't heard of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.There are rare effects of any medication.. ototoxicity is possible I would imagine.
Although Remeron is reported by some to be relatively free compared to some disposed to tinnitus -- whether that's true, I don't know.
Some of the most ototoxic but yet necessary -- Cisplatin, certain powerful antibiotics.
> <<Osteoporosis though really is a part of human existence, depending on its severity.>>
>
> Not if you're thirty.
>
> <<If you think you have extremely early onset bone disorders, that should be investigated by a proper orthopedic clinician and appropriate action that is capable in 2009 should be taken.>>That's why I said that... I had a sense that this was osteoporosis at a younger age. And that can be hereditary and caused by a number of things.
> Normally, this is very sensible advice. But if a doctor refuses to consider that it could be an adverse side effect, you are wasting your time.
>
> I did this with my hearing loss and was misdiagnosed with coclear meniere's disease only to realize the hearing loss was definitely from Remeron. I wasted alot of time not trusting my instincts.>Well, you might be the one of the first people with that... I'm not trying to deny that it could be... anything is possible.
But Meniere's is fairly rare, often caused by unknown trauma as a result of viruses and other infections, and has a complex progressive stage.
> <<As for Tardive Dyskinesia from Remeron 3 weeks into it, that I find nearly impossible.>>
>
> I have to admit I agree with you. But an experience with a supplement I am taking is causing me to say, don't discount anything.Supplement ?
> I believe what I am taking worsens my tinnitus considerably even though all the research I have done says this should not be happening. My dilemma is it helps in other ways and doesn't cause insomnia like other ones I have taken. Obviously, I have to make a decision but that is why I am not ready to completely blow off this claim even though I mostly agree with you.
Yes, there is always tradeoffs between choices of medical treatments. Benefits have to outweigh the risks, and that's a personal decision.> << In fact there was a small study (again, not enough for a major conclusion) in Israel in a journal that Remeron had improved Tardive (-late-, as in as little as multiple months to more usually years to decades of treatment) disorders.>>
>
> With all the side effects that Remeron has, I find that hard to believe.Actually there are various studies about Remeron and EPS. The study about Tardive syndromes may have been mianserin, I can't locate it -- mianserin is the predecessor to mirtazapine and is structurally similar.
> > Can you describe what you are experiencing ? I would think if it was anything it would be something that is in the EPS (extrapyramidal symptom) or "side effect" category, the name is usually limited to antipsychotics.
It still would be curious to know the effects that you're experiencing and how often they are... because there's a world of difference between EPS, tics, and Tardive syndromes (TD,TDy, etc), and just personally I happen to be acutely aware of that.
> Hasn't there been some links of TD to long term use of SSRIs? I am drawing a blank as to where i have seen this.Rarely... but the cases have often been people who have been on antipsychotics for years, often older, typical antipsychotics.
Zoloft has a slightly higher possibility in this realm of rareness for TD because it has some action on D2.
-- Jay
poster:yxibow
thread:32776
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20090630/msgs/904888.html