Posted by smpayne69 on July 22, 2007, at 18:21:01
In reply to Re: How I beat RLS and discovered ADD., posted by linkadge on July 22, 2007, at 10:53:43
Hey there, thanks for sharing your point of view. Actually, I have ADD which, as you know, quite different that ADHD in some aspects...from what we know anyway.
And I agree, the pure amphetimine may only be a patch for now, but from my own efforts, history, and symptons...there is a strong possibility that the major chemical the affects or is affected, is dopamine. Simply from what science has uncovered to date.
Just to put you back on track as to the purpose I put the post up. It was not to convince anyone that a specific drug or practice is for everyone. The intent was to reinforce self awareness as to what you actually put in your body and for which reason. Which I believe is the very thing you are eluding to.
After a couple years of really getting into understanding where research is today and the phylosophy of natural drugs designed to stimulate and support deficiencies, and those that alter and taint at the molecular level for reasons of enhancements or recreation, I knew that this issue is present in all aspects of our health. Should we take more than normal amounts of B12 because out skin is bad and causes damage psychologically. Or, should we doubt the fact that altering the chemical make-up in the veins of a diabetic with insulin, because our belief is that no matter what you do chemically, your body will become tolerant, so you have only a few months to live. Meanwhile, the same insulin is being abused in althletes in Steroid stacks. In the case of the diabetic, the problem is diagnosed as close as posible and s solution given. Can we cure diabeties yet?? No, can we 'patch' it as best we can and allow people to live a mostly normal life?? Yes, as long as they don't abuse or fail to manage.
In contrast, the misuse of the process gives grown men unaattural defects.
Again, I believe fact is constant. The hard part is getting the best 'patch' to do the job if there is no cure or knowledge...only theories. Such as ADD and dopamine.
From this, formed the base theory of my own issue. Once I understood my disorder was actually physical, I simply bumbed it up with what has been research at this point about our noggin. So, I believe I have the best patch for my the problem...furthermore, from what we DO know about nerochemisty, it makes sense. So, having my mind in sync with my brain, that in itself is a healer.
I responded to a post from another in this forum which I have pasted below. It goes a little more into my direction and frame of thought.
SMPayne.
....Hi Jerry,Yeah, I don't believe you are going to see the benefits of the controlled dopamine when you are adding a load of Opiates to the mix. In some manner, you may be 'breaking even' as if you were not on either drug at all, just now simply physically addicted.
Question: Are you taking the Hydro because of the sense of well being and pleasure? I can certainly understand if you are...I thought about that when I was on it, but quickly changed my mind after a crash refresher biochem course. I new the hunger would never stop and the balance would never be met. If you are taking it as part of a pain management therapy, you may have to stay on it, or put major time into seeking a non Opiate pain reliever. Many people start taking Opiates and stay on it long after the pain has gone because of the effects and addiction.
In my own opinion, and my personal experience with hydrocodone (Lortab), I went from 6 tablets a day as prescribed, right up to 12 a day because my body WAS becoming accustomed to the increase in Opiates. Add that to my tendency for addiction due to my chemical makeup, it was a train wreck waiting to happen. You may not have increased the Hydro intake as quickly as I did due to the fact you are also on Adderall, because if many theories are remotely correct, the increase in your Dopamine control process allowed for the extended desire feelings. Of course, that is just pure theory and you may have reacted completely different, so take it with the grain of salt that it is.So, my suggestion is talk to your doctor. You are going to most probably feel the effects of 2 different withdrawals, but by maintaining communication with your doc, the misery can be lessened.
I believe you are going to have to put some time into this, such as I did. You are most likely at the 'I am so sick of being this way' stage, which I understand to be the first step toward clarity.
I think coming off the Hydro is the definite first step. If you can, and do not require it for pain (or can use an alternate solution) have your Doctor manage you off very slowly. Now, there is kind of a trick that I have picked up from Mind studies and lectures and decided to try them after my initial attempt to withdrawal was unsuccessful; instead of coming off, I seemed to be only able to just manage on the current dose and spread the times out a little. With the known facts that, at the very basic level, animals learn and remember most from the act of surprise; as do humans. So, you need to trick your mind into believing that less of the hydro is the same as more. Let me explain; you have to 'manually' operate the reward center in your brain. So set up a rough schedule of withdrawal timeline. Do not drop the entire schedule to quickly, but initially try to stop taking it for 2 days. MAKE SURE you speak to your Doctor prior to doing this, as it does increase system stress, and we all have completely different tolerances. My 2 days, could be 1 day or 4 days for you...just try to keep the principle idea in mind.
So I decided to spend the weekend hunkered down at home with a loved one. My wife was my guiding hand in this process when I finally figured out how to properly withdrawal. Now, keep in mind I was ingesting 6000mg(12 X 500mg tabs) per day! I was actually at a point where I started observing disruptions in the motor skills area. So, on the evening of the 2nd day I was in a pretty bad way. I felt like my body was going to compress and explode at the same time. But I knew that if I could not handle any more, my wife would provide the next dose that my body was craving; and only under the guidelines we set prior to starting this. Knowing this severely reduces the anxiety that comes as part of the withdrawal process and can manifest differently in everyone. I had planned to back down to 10 a day starting on Monday, a goal that I thought I could easily attain. Setting unrealistic goals will react negatively and will actually act against the natural reward system. So, it was approaching the 40 hr mark and I decided that I put my body through enough stress for the initial 'mental shocking' process.
Now something very curious happened to me mentally and physically. My mind went from wanting the Opiate for the addiction of how it made me feel, to that of instinctive survival. Hence, why some addicts kill, steel, and lie to get one fix...basic survival instinct. Well, I started talking to my wife while shaking and sweating and trying to focus. Her having more psychology study from her time in university, and me not being very mentally aware at the time, I asked her if something else may be taking dominance in my mind. I was really at a point where I did not care about obtaining pleasure, I just wanted to release the pain.This was a CRITICAL point in my withdrawal process. Simply put, survival is stronger than pleasure, when not considering someone with manic depression and really don't feel like even obtaining please, and has a difficult time wanting to even survive. I knew my feelings of depression were simply the lack of pleasure sensors firing. So, I focused on my instinctive survival impulses. You can really logically feel these instincts coming to surface, so be careful to ensure to keep a handle on emotions such as aggression. I'm lucky my wife didn't leave me the amount of times I snapped at her during this process.
So, I decided to have my wife call my employer and tell him I was really sick and would most likely not be in the next day; nowhere near a lie! I WANTED to fight with this inner enemy, demon...whatever you believe to call it. We all know that it's called something different by all societies, but is very much the same. I did not fight too long, maybe a couple hours, but that really helped. My mind was ready to accept the hydro to help the pain, not get the desire. And, I managed to fight a couple extra hours past my goal.
It was about midnight or so and my wife gave me 2 Hydro (Down from the 3 I normally took). It was about the regular 45 minute reaction time before I started feeling my muscles relaxing, my mind clearing, and breathing coming back to normal. As indicated in my previous post about the steps of study I performed, RLS really hit hard with the withdrawal as well...giving proof to my own issue with dopamine related RLS. The dopamine during a withdrawal may be in a state of flux with all kinds of nerve related wonders happening. About 2 hours into it, I was totally relaxed and DANGER!! I felt the pleasure a little like I did the first time I started. DO NOT focus on the pleasure, FOCUS on the relief of the withdrawal! Play the misery in your mind, and how it has been relieved. The 'Mind' is a powerful player here.
For me, came a surprise. I woke up the next morning with not so much of that morning disoriented craving. It was there but much further back in my mind. I believe the initial stage of starving my system and then feeding it a lesser amount completely and subconsciencly tricked my mind into thinking it was MORE than normal. I continued to focus on the misery relief the drug had given me, with only 2/3rds the dosage. Be strong mentally here! Don't take anymore until you physically feel you need it. But, don't punish yourself like you did with the initial 2 day gap...your mind knows its being trained even if you don't. Just like the shock collar (PETA Approved) we used on our extremely bad beagle, Gracie. When the door opened and she saw a break, instinctively she needed to run and track a scent. Being a part of the hound family and her being a full breed, her indicatives heritage is extremely strong. So, upon chasing the dog for miles, I would scold her for actually doing what was totally natural, necessary, and really out of her control. So enter the collar. Both my wife and I were extremely apprehensive about using this tool to train. So, what would anyone do?? Get the brother-in-law to test it on himself. He put it on the medium setting and held it to his breast bone...similar to where the dog would feel it. He would not allow me to operate the controller of course, so I sadly surrendered any thoughts of pure pleasure of brotherly torture. In any case, he pressed the button and jumped about 5 feet! My first thought was of horror (to be honest, the horror was mild...most emotions we pretty dead during the last stages of the Opiate experiment). However, my wife had no problem thinking of what would happen to our little doggy. However, the in-law stated that it was just a deep vibration that surprised him, not electrified him. He had no repeating the process So, we put the collar on the dog and picked a command word; We use STOP. With faith, we opened the door and watched the tail end of our pup tear out only to slow down a little when she heard the high pitch tone of her collar (The collar is equipped with a high pitched tone that the dog will always connect to the memory of initial shock, or surprise). However, she continued on only to be met with a ground departing surprise and a yelp. Then I command 'STOP!' very firmly. She came back into the house with her tail between her legs. That was the only time we used the shock feature, and she never runs from from us. If her mind gets a little overwhelmed by instinct, a tone will immediately bring the memory of shock back which relates to STOP. Now all we do is say STOP. This was also accomplished in 2 days. Now that we controlled the natural instinct, Gracie is able to really use her instinctive senses because we can take her out to a large park and let her go, confidently knowing that we can snap her out of it at any time. During this whole process, her reward system is active in her and she gets the pleasure from her instinctive need to hunt. I throw medium heavy bones deep into a local wooded area and she hunts and retrieves. Now, when at home, she is a completely different dog. Much better behavior, now stressful chewing, etc. Her brain is now chemically balanced with the help of an external tool. Of course, people would argue that we did not need the collar, just let her go be a free hunting dog...but the is not our current reality is it? The dog would always be in danger of the elements of nature, would not gain much more benefit. To quote the Dog Whisperer, "Dogs want to work.". That's why that species are such loyal companions...they get the greatest pleasure release from pleasing a loving owner.
So, back to my point. As the Dogs instinctive motivation for survival out ways it's desire, the desire is controlled. In our case, when withdrawing, we have to hit that wall where survival out ways the need for pleasure. To take my little Gracie as an example, if I started one day complete abusing her, she would most likely keep coming to me because of instinctive addiction until she hit the wall and survival instinct took over and I found myself half eating and left for the local squirrels.
That Monday morning, I was contemplating how I REALLY truly felt. I knew that I felt a lot better than the night before, but could easily feel the need for that desire fix again on the edge of my mind. So, what was this physically?? My RLS was again subsided due to the dopamine regulation (Understand that the cause of RLS is still not completely known...I have simply discovered that the control of Dopamine took care of mine; whether it was directly or indirectly the dopamine is something that is still unknown to me. My own belief is that the balance between triggers and receptors play a very major role). So, I theorized that the greater the gap in the syncronizating between the very basic and instinctive chemicals in our brains, the greater the need for the basic function of survival. When in withdrawal, many, many times our systems leap into the adrenaline overload state of 'fight or flight' and can be very unsettling; sweating, crazing heart rate increases, and no apparent reason for it; we could be simply trying to relax.
I found in the state of mind that I had put myself, I was able to go well into the afternoon before taking another 2 Hydro. Again, my body accepted them happily, but with a little decreased pleasure feeling again. I was then in a weird sort of bind. I asked myself, "Can I use the pleasure culprit to my advantage?" I knew that the longer I went without the Hydro, the more I would feel the pleasure in its effects; but now with controlled management of mind. I went very late into the evening before taking the drug again prior to sleeping. This was also partly planned so I could get sleep before work the next morning. Sure enough, I received more pleasure for my work in sticking it out. This was me manually using my inherent reward/pleasure system that is a natural occurrence. This REALLY helped me solidify many things. Primarily, that I was starting to side with my sense of survival more than that of pleasure, because I focused on the agony of misery over the reduced amount of pleasure; I started viewing Hydro as pain relief more than a pleasure giver, image that!
With all this in mind, the continued process went pretty smooth. I really started feeling stable about a week into it. The RLS stayed, but lessened. Approximately a month later, I was convinced I had beaten it and 'shocked' my mind into unconsciously reacting with survival instinct when remembering the withdrawal experience, and in turn, putting kind of a fog over the memory of the pleasure the drug gave. During the entire process of withdrawal, I did go through mood swings, depression, lack of motivation, etc... But, I really believed that this was driven by a related but much different issue.
For me, this was where I compiled all all the logical facts. In short, everything pointed to a 'difference' in the chemical dance between my most basic chemicals. As stated before, I think in a different place and time, my balance may have been more closely balanced to the expectations of society. In 500 years from now, hypothetically, we may not require near the attention span as we do today due to such innovations as cortical implants. Maybe extremely focused attention capabilities would hinder a new age process in allowing your brain to completely relax during a 'neural stack upload'. Who really knows? Some of my own theories are part philosophical, psychological, biological, and spiritual. Furthermore, I think the meaning of life is to reach a point where all areas are completely in sync. But I will spare you any more of my thoughts and point you toward His Holiness, the Dali Lama who has done immense research, study, and contemplation on this very thing. I recently read his newest release, "The Universe in a Single Atom", read by Richard Gere.
So Jerry, you have a different issue. If you were able to get by without the Hydro from chronic pain and able to complete withdrawal from the drug, you would then have to consider the Adderall and the dopamine factor. You really have to think about how you feel? And remember, the natural brain's Opiates are to be managed and regulated by the dopamine. If you were able to 'fog' out the intense pleasure of the Hyrdo from it's initial use, you may feel small bursts of elation and inner happiness already and simply have yet to consciously noticed it. Your brain has just gone through trauma, so you may be getting all kinds of signals. Anything from sudden feeling of wanting to cry, or bursts of laughter...its hard to tell. Just keep your eye on the ball, and try to reset things and look at it with new, unbiased logic and less feeling. Keep a daily log through this entire process so you can track these feelings; it really helped me stay on track.
So, your quirk is the Addrall. I would guess it to be hard to gauge whether the Adderall is doing anything for you because you don't have a clean slate to measure from. I would suggest you, again, speak with your Doctor and ask his opinion on possibly reducing your Adderall intake for a period of time, then increasing again. This may help you feel the true benefits of correct Opiate management and a real feeling of the reward/pleasure instinct that drive the most successful and happiest people. Or, if you are only on a small dose of Adderall, ask about increasing it. I personally, due to my scientific nature, would have to completely come off the Adderall and spend a little time before starting up again. Again, that's my personality. I need to know that if I commit to something, I am getting the maximum benefit. So, when you feel ready, start with a dosage that you and your Doctor feel is right.
Sorry for such a long post, but if I am going to offer support to another that is seeking to improve their lives and need answers as much as I did, I feel you should know all the steps I took to correct my state of being. Also, many people will tell you that Adderall is bad, addictive, just a patch, etc. For some that is all they are because that's what their mind perceives them to be; and we all know how powerful the mind can be. In unbiased studies by the worlds top pharmacology, psychology, and biochemical governing institutes, Adderall, when used responsibly and correctly, is very unlikely to cause an addiction. So much that it has been legalized and prescribed to both children and adults. On a side note, I DO believe that it can be very addictive if used by an individual that has been misdiagnosed or used the drug for enhancement. That is why it is so important for us as individuals to treat Doctors as more of guides to understanding what is really going on inside. If you have a specific problem with how Dopamine handles the management of your pleasure/reward/motivation centers then a correct adjustment to that receptor has been shown repeatedly to improve many aspects of peoples lives. If you are using Adderall as a diet pill, or a study drug, then you are asking for real trouble. Obstructing a perfectly chemically sync'd neuronet may be just as devastating as heroin or cocaine, and may ultimately lead that person to addiction where normally there would not be a tendency for it. When individuals bring up the fact that the drug is just a temporary relief and your system will adapt build a tolerance, then think of the medication for people that are diabetic. They inject insulin into their system to control sugar levels. They have to ensure they use the correct dosage that is required to maintain a survivable blood sugar level. Now do Mr. Muscle at the local gym that uses insulin in a stacked concoction to increase hormones and muscle growth. Do we tell the person that is correcting their chemical balance with correct dosages of insulin that they can expect another 6 months on this Earthly planet before their systems build a tolerance?? And, do we applaud the guy that got all muscled up, lost the ability to reproduce, and is growing breasts, all to look good on the beach?? Drugs for ADD and other issues are all the same; they can help, or be abused. Do your homework; just ask my wife, I am a new man, awake and aware.
Disclaimer: For the purpose of my post and experience, I have used the brand Adderall. The brand or type of medication is not meant to condone its usage for anyone Else's struggles. It is up to the reader to determine where the unbalance, or dysfunction resides through their own personal research and professional assistance. If you can, also spend a couple sessions with a Psychologist when you are about to make a decision, just to ensure you are not biased by either the environment or internal conflict. Medications are simply our own bodies chemicals localized to ensure proper function...no different then Vitamin C to assist in the immune system. Just don't abuse it and ensure you completely understand your disorder before choosing a correcting medication.
PS...Please forgive spelling and grammar, my brain was just returned to me. :)
poster:smpayne69
thread:770756
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20070719/msgs/771186.html