Posted by laima on July 23, 2006, at 20:17:58
In reply to Re: Thoughts on Depression and other diagnoses..., posted by fuchsia on July 22, 2006, at 22:04:58
As an artist, I will have to enthusiastically agree with you. During the worst moments of mood disfunction, NOTHING gets done. Period. No offense to anyone, and I drift away from the topic, but I think the persistent myth of "depressed artist is so creative and brilliant" as a general idea is an offensive, outdated, and false stereotype- plain fiction. It's embarressing, and the persistence of the myth ends up with people having preconceived notions about "artists". It's embarressing to even say, "I'm an artist" thanks to these stereotypes. I know many others in my area- I hear ditto. In reality, during a severe spell of depression, creativity, energy, enthusiasm, and concentration shrivel, and even the most formerly exciting creative projects, whether or not already planned or completed, appear foolish, uninteresting, and trivial. The bed, couch, tv- are far more appealing- if even they can be managed. I don't mean "depressed", when one can still somehow plod along, I am talking about severely DEPRESSED.Once, Georgia O'Keefe became depressed to such an extent she swore off painting forever- this lasted 2 years. She spent much of that time in bed. And look at what happened to Sylvia Plath. Look at Vincent van Gogh. Look at Curt Cobain. Who was that singer from Joy Division... Rothko killed himself while young. Doesn't sound that Pollock was doing so great anymore before perishing in an alchohol related accident. There are many others for the list. Generally speaking, they seem to have done their best work and were best able to get along with others during the times that they were able to function or distract themselves via drugs or whatever. Furthermore, I personally know of many tragic tales of people dropping out of their grad programs and/or dissertations because their mood disorder rendered them disfunctional. I would bet anything that they hardly got any special bursts of insight or utter brilliance during the worst parts of their moods! I also doubt that the lowest points of their depressions correlated to their most productive periods. Thank goodness, I think they also experienced grace periods of some relief during which their talents were able to fluorish. For this, I am in even greater awe of them.
I do not doubt the reality or severity of the depressions of Virginia Wolf or Winston Churchill, nor, as an American, have I ever learned too many details about Churchill's career, but I strongly suspect that they both did their best spurts of work during periods of at least partial remission and not while anywhere near suicidal. I concede, poetry might be different, as it is verbal and can directly address feelings- but I am not familiar enough with Virginia's work to say anything for sure. I don't think she was into poetry so much actually- but again, don't know her well enough to say. I can't fathom tackeling anything like a writing a good or coherent book or diplomatically ending a world war while in the midst of a hell episode, however.
> > Virginia Woolf and Winston Churchill have also managed to accomplish great things while depressed.
WHILE depressed? How depressed, and what exactly does that mean? What does "depressed" mean in this context? Dysthymic? Suicidal? Recovering? Coping? Remission? Could they envision a future or get out of bed? Could they concentrate? Did they wish they were dead? How could they do great things if they were simultaneously wishing for death? I bet they could at least get out of bed and face people. Perhaps they experiencing a bout of gracious relief while active? Were they manic? (I honestly don't know, which is why I ask.) Did people use the term "depressed" in the past the way most of us use it today? Did the associations of the word "depressed" change over the years? I think most of us realize that the meanings of words in our evolving language can shift... Did they seek relief from any substances? Did they function steady, or in spurts?
> I got the impression that Virginia Woolf had trouble writing at her most depressed.
I expect you are 100% correct. Can anyone imagine writing well when feeling their absolute worst? Or even doing the dishes, collecting thoughts, sitting still, making a phone call, etc?When intensly depressed, it is kind of hard to focus on an art or writing project. If anyone out there knows how to focus great and be smart, creative, and productive while in the throws of the worst of their illness, please share this precious info.
If I ever had a pet peeve, it's that "brilliant creative people are that way because they are depressed/mentally ill/whatever-- and aren't they so darn crazy, wacky, creative and lucky" myth. No one here said it, but we're getting close to the topic. "Oh those wacky suffering, unstable creative types!" I think that's actually a really degrading and insulting stereotype. "If you are depressed, you are lucky- you must be so creative". Creative or not, depressed or not, we are all human beings. Depression hurts a lot, and whether or not one has ever written a book, a dissertation, painted a great painting in the past, made a movie----it somehow doesn't feel like it matters when one is in the depths of ultra-intense suffering. And furthermore, everyone is creative or at least has the capacity- just notice. No need to be "mentally ill" (whatever one would mean by that) to be creative.
This old outdated Romantic Era myth about tortured, emotionally out of control artists should go away. It's not helping anyone. In reality, the most "successful" artists of all sorts, including writers, today, are more noted for being rather business-like, career-ish, and methodical than for being any kind of wacky, kooky, or depressed.
I better mention that I in fact do not know very much about manic states, have never experienced one, and for this reason am not refering to them here in my complaint. I understand that the associated circumstances are different from those of unipolar depression and anxiety, and, having no experience and only scant knowledge, refrain from commenting-I'm not qualified and wouldn't know what I was talking about.
Maybe we are disagreeing about semantics and what "depression" is. Perhaps it would help us all if there were different words to distinguish some of the nuances and levels of being able to function. I disagree with much at the start of this volotile thread, but there are a few valid issues mentioned which I wish we could discuss and/or debate somewhere to help educate each other-try to dispell some hurtful myths and such. If this is the wrong place, I'm dissapointed, I'll abstain, go away, and everything everyone wants to say can stay very nice and true to the same civil prevailing wisdom which isn't necessarily proving super helpful to furthering understanding of mental illnesses. This could likely be the 3rd civility warning I'm mixed up with during this one weekend-as I unhappily attempt to defend myself from what hurts me, or try to explain why. I give up, dissapointed. I never meant any disrespect to anyone here- so yes, I'm frustrated today, but not at any of you or any individual. If there exists another forum elsewhere suitable for polite, constructive debate or discussion, I'd love to hear of it.
poster:laima
thread:668858
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20060717/msgs/669833.html