Posted by linkadge on March 17, 2006, at 9:55:15
In reply to Re: Never thought I'd hear this..... » linkadge, posted by SLS on March 17, 2006, at 7:38:46
>My point is this: The cluster of behaviors that >we see with the administration of amphetamine, >and that you have listed, is not a sufficient >criterion for true mania such that these >investigators needed to find other models to use.
Some of the models we have today may not be conclusive, but I don't think that is reason to ignore them.
>They judged the validity of their models based >upon the capacity of mood stabilizers to reverse >them. The hyperlocomotive and hyperlibidinal >effects produced by psychostimulants are thus >not equivalent to mania, and the presence of >these behaviors is not sufficient to presume a >valid animal model.
Psychosis and mania have been effectively treated with drugs that were active in these paradigms.
We can aruge that these behaviors aren't identical to human mania, but we could argue the same thing for rodent depression. That doesn't negate the fact that the model is oftentimes highly predictive of drug sucess in humans.
>Otherwise, I imagine they would have used >cocaine. So far, I don't believe that they have >been able to reproduce mania in rodents using >SSRIs.I don't know.
>Hopefully, they will develop a strain of
>rodent that exhibits such a reaction so as to >serve as a model for mania. Of course, this >would only go to reinforce the notion that there >must be a genetic bipolar diathesis present to >display a manic reaction to antidepressants.It is my contention that long term rat studies may show things that the short term ones don't. Rat studies are brief, but in yours and my mothers case, a manic reaction was not evident right away.
>My mania lasted for weeks after the >antidepressants were discontinued, despite >lithium treatment.
Hey I've got a good one for you. An interesting phenomina, is that sometimes severe manic episodes can happen upon *discontinuation* of an antidepressant. Now would these people be bipolar? I would argue no. They are undergoing a dopamine rebound. Regular people + dopamine overflow = strange behavior.
>I think this is one factor
>that leads me to believe that a manic reaction >to antidepressants is fundamentally different >from the acute behavioral states produced by >psychostimulants. Mania involves a self->perpetuating process, most likely effected by >kindling and probably facilitated through second >messenger events.Stimulants can cause seizures in no time at all. I guess that implies they can cause kindling in no time at all too?
>My guess is that
>antidepressant-induced mania gains inertia the >longer it is allowed to continue. The sooner it >is recognized and the offending drugs >discontinued, the more quickly the mania will >dissipate.This is probably true.
>Again, Depakote would have prevented this as my >mania are very responsive to it. It is also >responsive to Zyprexa, but not to the older APs. >I should think that combining Nardil and Zyprexa >would be a great combination for bipolar >depression.
Depakote can be helpfull. It has a stronger anti-kindling effect than lithium. Lithium can actually be proconvulsant.
>I'm not saying that it is impossible for an SSRI >to produce a manic reaction in someone who is >not bipolar. Prednisone seems to be sufficient >to do that. However, I think the odds are that >for someone who has an affective disorder, the >precipitation of mania by the administration of >an antidepressant is reflective of bipolar >disorder.
I think that the moment we understand how these drugs work, is the moment we can quantify (with any certainty) how and why they fail.
Linkadge
poster:linkadge
thread:620137
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20060315/msgs/621265.html