Posted by PsychoSage on April 6, 2004, at 19:49:04
In reply to Re: effexor and ectasy -LINK -nytimes.com » PsychoSage, posted by rod on April 6, 2004, at 15:36:28
> > ..Both times were with meth..
>
> Im sorry if this happened to you, but no one is talking amount meth here. The substance discussed here is MDMA not meth. No one said its "safe" with any other drug than MDMA. Any i agree to a certain extend, that an SSRI does not block the effect of MDMA for 100%. It just greatly decreases it. And someone who takes an SSRI can be close to serotonin syndrom by the SSRI alone. Serotonin Syndrome also accurs with SSRI monotherapy in some individulas. And if such a person, close to serotonin syndrom due to SSRI, takes MDMA, the reduced increase in serotonin might be enough to result in serotonin syndrome, in my opinion. Thats at least an psausible explanation and might fit some cases.
>
> And the study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12404538
> demonstates the theoretical interaction of MDMA and citalopram, an SSRI. And these people were taking pharmaceutical grade MDMA.
>
>
> > ..from her pill, and she was kind of pissed. Then she became incredibly ill with the classic serotonin syndrome symptoms.
>
> As I said, you never really know what you get. What did she thought to take? Also meth, or E?
>
> > Effexor has been implicated in many serotonin toxicity cases with or without MDMA. MDMA has definitely been implicated in a lot of serotonin toxicity cases. If you take them together, I think they would kick your but.
>
> As it has been said before: "serotonin increase by MDMA alone" + "Serotonin increase by SSRI alone" =! (does not equal) "Serotonin increase by SSRI and MDMA coadministered". Its "Serotonin increase by SSRI alone" + "a tiny bit more".
>
> And your links *dont* mention anything about (SSRI or Effexor) + MDMA = Death
>
> I think we have a tiny problem about comunication here...
>
> RolandYour study involves people who are healthy and do not take SSRIs or effexor {SNRI} regularly. Naturally, who gets serotonin poisoning and who doesn't depends on how much serotonin is floating around there to begin with.
There is no evidence that a chronic SSRI user can avoid serotonin syndrome, and there is speculative information out there that suggests a regular SSRI user would have the opposite effect compared to a person who experienced neuroprotective qualities.
see here:
http://www.maps.org/forum/2002/msg00749.html
Patterns of use
and experiences
of recreational
pharmaceutical
drug use amongst
party drug usersPaul Dillon, Jan Copeland
and Michael GascoigneParty drug users, many of whom have become
disillusioned with, or tolerant to the effects of,
ecstasy appear to be looking for ways to
increase and/or lengthen their period of party
drug intoxication. The use of pharmaceutical
medications in conjunction with party drugs
appears to be increasing. These drugs may
be combined to increase the effect of the party
drug or may also be an attempt to negate
an undesirable side-effect of the party drug.
Some party drug users for example ascribe
to the myth that taking an anti-depressant with
ecstasy can reduce the potential neurotoxic
effects of MDMA.Such drug combinations may bring about a
variety of negative symptoms. For example,
several authors note that combining ecstasy
and SSRI anti-depressants (such as Prozac
or Luvox) can easily bring about serotonin
syndrome, which can prove to be a fatal side-effect.Look at this dialogue on one of those recreational drug discussion sites, which are replete with misinformation, yet I found a thread peppered with a little bit of sense. This is the first time I've ever read these threads, and now I know why I see the kind of posts on here:
Poster A:
What do you mean myth? MAOI's reduce the amount of monamine oxidase in the brain, which is responsible for "cleaning up" serotonin after it's served its purpose as a neurotransmitter.
Consider SSRI's. They inhibit the reuptake of 5-HT, causing massive amounts of serotonin to be unleashed in numerous vital areas of the brain.
Now combine those effects: way too serotonin and no way to get rid of it. Do that, and you'll experience serotonin syndrome very quickly.
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
Poster B:Do a bit more reading (none / 0) (#12)
on Thu Nov 14th, 2002"causing massive amounts of serotonin to be ...unleashed..."
SSRIs do no such thing. Seratonin reuptake refers to a phenonmenon where the transmitter (neuron emitting 5-HT) re-absorbs the Seratonin it's released before the receiver can, resulting in a "weak signal" (for lack of a better term.) Overall this increases average Seratonin levels slowly because now only receivers are doing absorption.Drugs like LSD and E, OTOH, cause the transmitter neurons to "dump" their reserves, resulting in a much higher seratonin level in a much shorter time. (LSD is only active for much less than an hour, the rest of the "trip" is from the flood of free-ranging neurochemicals like Seratonin which are being randomly received.)
You are correct that Seratonin Syndrome is a likely outcome. Unfortunately SS is unpredictable crap-shoot at best, which is why you get so many people claiming it's "harmless" because they haven't encountered SS. You might get away with it 9/10, 999/1000, or only 1/2 times -- you just can't predict who is going to be susceptible, nor how susceptible they are.
Poster C:on Fri Nov 15th, 2002
What about serotonergic drugs affecting the dopaminergic systems via changes in extraneuronal 5-HT?
Don't forget the dopamine Ds, pleez.
I agree about the SS crapshoot. Everybody's brain is "wired" differently. Just because one guy on erowid, or whatever, had 3 posts about it, doesn't mean it is harmless.
I would not want to mix SSRIs and MAOIs. Plus, I think the man-made MAOIs are a little more potent than the tree bark you're advocating.
BTW, what kind of educational background do you have? You seem to know your sh&*, and I'm looking for some guidance in my intellectual pursuits.
poster:PsychoSage
thread:332813
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20040402/msgs/333484.html