Posted by tealady on September 27, 2003, at 0:15:34
In reply to Re: Fluoride » tealady, posted by mattdds on September 26, 2003, at 21:43:58
> I have no idea what you mean by this. I think you would have a very difficult time comparing dental amalgam to smoking in terms of toxicity. There really is no comparison. But that's a totally different story.
I was only suggesting a slight similarity to the tobacco lobby story for many decades.. From memory only, I thought the arguments went like "There is no DIRECT proof, so tobacco smoking could not be the cause of any harm"
>
> > Of course, if you hold a belief that fluoride is causing your problems, this could become a self-fulfilling prophecy, and the experiment would backfire. So, in a sense, your *beliefs* regarding fluoride, rather than the fluoride itself, could be the problem.
> >Agree with above. If one did expect to be poisoned, one would probably feel depressed the next day. But I didn't get the impression this is what happened to bobabuoy.
> " used a higher concentration fluoride toothpaste at night prescribed by the dentist and the next day was one of the worst days I've ever had. I was so depressed and had absolutely no motivation/energy. "
I formed the impression(perhaps incorrectly) he did NOT expect to feel worse the next day when he used the toothpaste, but was looking for a cause for his unexpected depression and wondered if there could be a link.
> You're assuming, by default, that it was the fluoride that induced depression. How do you know this, and how can I reliably arrive at the same conclusion? Now I'm not saying it's impossible that fluoride was the culprit, I just don't see any evidence for it, so the burden of proof is with you (if that is what you're arguing).No, I wasn't. which is why I said, "Depression is a hypothyroid symptom so that would be my guess on the way fluoride causes depression. .... IF IT IS BEING CAUSED BY THIs ROUTE, fatigue should probably be expected to accompany the depression.
I only said this as I had previously read the lab rat /high levels of fluoride studies you mentioned. And I said, I would not expect if one was being made a bit hypo, that the ONLY problem would be depression, I would expect fatigue too at least!...so we kind agree here?
Looking back he does mention energy and motivation..both also symptoms of hypo..of course it does not prove anything.
> Reality is that the only disease that changes is dental caries, and quite obviously for the better.Yes there is an admittedly a decrease in dental caries, but a far more significant decrease is just occuring with time..perhaps from school clinics which have been introduced gradually in the past 30 years?
"Dental decay rates have been falling for three decades in both fluoridated and unfluoridated communities. "
http://www.fluoride-journal.com/98-31-4/314-232.htm
>
> What makes you uncomfortable with the idea that beliefs can influence symptoms? It's a pretty widely accepted idea. I hope you will at least concede that this does sometimes occur.Sure, I meant I was uncomfortable with the idea of dismissing symptoms saying they are caused by beliefs without investigating further...
>
> >>As always, in moderation.
>
> Right. 1 ppm in drinking water is the level determined to have the most benefits with fewest adverse effects.Well ours is stated as 0.9 - 1.5 mg/L. I do not know how this converts to ppm.
They emphasize the minimum levels are always met, and range is mostly met at test sites...so look high end of this range or bit abovePrevident is not meant for long term use, and certainly not meant to be ingested. It is mainly used for incipient decay that can be reversed so you don't have to drill it out. So in that sense, you may be saving yourself from the dreaded amalgam (or bis-GMA resins - even worse according to some scaremongers) by using fluoride. You will also save a heck of a lot of tooth structure. Take your pick.
I actually do agree with you on this use of fluoride.
>
> >>u just can't afford to use all bottled mineral water.
>
> Nor would you want to. I see kids in my pediatric rotation come in whose mothers did not let them drink tap water and only had bottled. They tend to have mouths with rampant decay. The mother typically says the child brushes regularly, and eats a normal diet. It's really sad to see kids with mouths in that bad of shape, and in my opinion, it could be considered neglect. In fact, bottled water intake is considered a *risk factor* for dental decay on our patient charts.That's interesting.
> Then, I see kids come in, who never brush their teeth, but drink tap water, and have no cavities.
>Are you sure you are not also making assumptions based on your own expectations here?
Amongst my family I have one brother and mother with lots of decay, and my father and another brother with absolutely NO decay, perfect hard teeth, never visited a dentist in their lives!...non fluoridated water, similar diets, dental hygiene etc...
> The problem with fluoridating water is, the consumers really do not have any choice in being unable to remove it, without removing all beneficial minerals etc thru expensive, slow reverse osmosis.
>
> It really is a public health issue. Nobody is trying to poison you. Now, think about it.If dentists wanted to make money, wouldn't they be telling you about how bad fluoride is?
Wouldn't all the dental industry be skewing the data against fluoridation so they could push more expensive restorative materials and treatments? Believe me, there is a lot of money at stake here, and if there were *any* reliable evidence that fluoride induced psych disorders, we dentists would be happy to revert back to the days of "drilling, filling and billing", if it were in the patient's best interest.I don't really believe dentists would think like this..or that it is part of the argument.
But if one was just merely arging in terms of cold logic, te argument would be ..
"dentists secretly know fluoride is bad and softens bones and teeth..so let's make up some story to get the water authorites to put fluoride into the water..that way we get more work! OOPs and lets ensure that these new composites also slowly release fluoride over years just to make sure,and let's put some patches on the kids back teeth with high levels of fluoride in them too hey!"...sorry, the argument works both ways
How did my daughter's teeth sound to you ..like too much fluoride, or something else and not typical of too much fluoride?
.. chalky-like teeth with yellow mottled and spongy centre of back teeth
I was interested in your opinion.
Since buying bottled water to partly replace, and cutting the fluoride toothpaste over a few years, enamel is whiter and more glassy looking
I'm not assuming anything, I just wondered. It could have been high temperatures during teeth development, viruses, estrogen kicking in now ..any no of things.> I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I'm afraid it's too late. :). I'm not out to poison anybody,
Matt, I never meant to imply you were. Sorry if you thought so.
Best, Jan
poster:tealady
thread:263511
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030923/msgs/263660.html