Posted by leor on May 29, 2003, at 14:26:30
In reply to Re: What we should really focus on » samplemethod, posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 22:17:45
If I recall, this discussion started off with NADH. Perhaps we can return to that subject now. I am wondering does NADH overmethylate or undermethylate? Or neither? I found that it had a motivation enhancing effect for the first few weeks of my use. Ever since, it has caused me fatigue. Perhaps I need to modify my dosage (currently 2.5 mg daily) but I suspect it will be of little benefit.
All this information is very interesting for me to digest. My gut reaction is that I am suffering from undermethylation (I have all the symptoms and have responded well to those of the suggested supplements I have tried).
Is there a test that can be performed to discern whether one suffers from under or overmethylation? I know that it is impossible to measure the levels of the neurotransmitters in the bloodstream but what about whole blood histamine and absolute basophils (which according to the study are implicated in undermethylation)?
Many thanks,
Leor
> > Ok, well I agree with you Lar on the statement that lines should not be drawn and people dont always fit into nice groups...especially when linking supps to all the different DSM categories.
>
> I am also concerned that some assumptions about why the groups have been created the way they have been, with respect to methylation/histamine, may be conditional, or even erroneous. I'm still trying to figure it all out.
>
> > What I think we should all really focus on is to target methylation and cysteine levels.
>
> You corrected this later, to read histamine, rather than cysteine, yes?
>
> > First, find out which vits/supps have a great impact on methylation and homocysteine levels.
>
> There are two processes. One, the major process in most people, requires folate and B-12. B-12 is the methyl donor here.
>
> The other is an inducible process, requiring betaine (trimethylglycine). Homocysteine + betaine --> methionine + dimethylglycine. Betaine is the methyl donor here.
>
> In both cases, the methionine goes on to form S-adenosyl methione (SAMe), which is the methyl donor involved in the vast majority of enzymatic reactions involving methyl donation.
>
> > Second, find out if you over or undermethylate and choose the supps that directly affect methylation to a great degree in a balancing direction.
>
> I really am not convinced that you can overmethylate. Undermethylate, yes, but over? Hmmm.....
>
> > See I reckon some supps are good for many things, and not just methylation. You probably need all normal vits and supps in your diet, such as folate.
>
> That's why I can't understand the argument that folate should be avoided.
>
> The major neuronal degradation process for histamine requires SAMe. Fine, I agree with them that both methionine supplementation and SAMe supplementation ought to bring down brain histamine levels (in the suggested case of undermethylation/high histamine).
>
> However, in the case of overmethylation/low histamine, it is suggested that you supplement with B-12 and folate, yet avoid TMG and SAMe. The problem is (for my conceptualization) B-12 and folate do the same damn thing as TMG, i.e. increase methionine, and in turn, SAMe.
>
> Now, folate is part of the process of forming histidine, the precursor to histamine, but histamine is formed from histidine in an enzymatic decarboxylation that depends on B-6, not folate. Moreover, folate also participates in alternative products formed from histidine. Folate makes it, and breaks it, eh? You see, there's a lot going on, and it's awful hard (in my humble opinion) to isolate just one reaction series, and say "this nutrient does this", without completely ignoring a whole number of other processes.
>
>
> > So what you do is take a balanced supplementation....then depending on how much you naturally methylate and how much those so called essential vits/supps methylate, take a methylater (or if in your case something that affects in the other direction (would that be just termed as a substance that raises cysteine, or just reduces methylation?) - having done that, you will come to a balanced level of methylation (and the consequent effects).
> >
> > What do you guys think about this method??
>
> My method requires doing the experiment. In other words, try the stuff, and see if you feel better or not. All the thought experiments, analysis of mechanisms, etc., in the world aren't going to tell you that.
>
> > Now all we gotta do is find out how much certain substances ACTUALLY affect the methylation process.
> >
> > sampleM
>
> I hope I answered that question.
>
> Lar
poster:leor
thread:229704
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030525/msgs/229968.html