Posted by Mireille on July 26, 2002, at 21:33:17
In reply to Re: I'll tell you what happened, posted by cybercafe on July 26, 2002, at 11:21:07
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> ... actually i was sincerely interested in what you thought doctors can do to treat depression without some type of risk ...You raise a very good question. I mean, I think that in all of this ranting I'm just venting (withdrawal-induced?) anger, but really, I've no more any good suggestions than the next person...and I don't go so far as to blame all doctors, as I realize that they have tons of patients and are overworked themselves...it just might be nice if they laid it out for you and said, "look, this drug hasn't been tested in the long term, or on pregnant women, but it's worked for people with depression in the short term..."
Even people with serious depression - I know it's chemical, but I think we all need to learn coping skills...what if we all find out one day that this drug or that one is seriously detramental to our health, and they pull them all off the market...we will have a major crisis on our hands because many of us (myself included) never could afford to do the therapy that is supposed to go along with the anti-depressants, so none of us would know how to cope...that is a very scary thought.
Ok, now I got on a roll - here is what should be done - my friend in France went to a shrink there, and ALL psychotherapy is government-reimbursed, so she got all of her fees reimbursed to her! It ends up being free! Sorry, but I think America should do something like that. You say later on that you think the real problem is that we do not give enough money to mental health research/aid...that is why there are tons of mentally ill people in jail and on the streets raping 5 year old girls and other horrid things...and did you hear, on "60 Minutes" they had a show about a prostitution and drug ring being run in a Mental Health Facility in upstate New York...sorry, but SOCIALIZED medicine, that's my idea. We are the only first-world country outside of SOuth Africa who does not have socialized medicine.
> ... i'm sorry you're having so much trouble... when i was having horrible withdrawal symptoms from effexor (i really just wanted to die), my doc recommended i take effexor and wow... i felt so relieved, ... it was a miracle...
THanks for your thoughts...do you mean your doc switched you to something besides Effexor or told you to go back on it? I may end up staying on 37.5 mg every other day, but I'd rather not be on it at all...withdrawal seems to be getting better...we'll see.
> ... i know that your personality can permanently be altered.. even for the worst.. but then medication can almost always make it better ... myself i had severe anxiety, .. but after a while i was able to stop taking benzos (for about 7 months now) and a lot has dissappeared... it's really quite hard to believe... i'm always asking myself why i'm not getting these rushes of fear all the time...Benzos? Sorry, I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to all of the different types of drugs out there...but it's great to hear your story! And I know what you mean, you really can see how chemical it is when you go off and on things, and when sometimes you're in the pits of hell and sometimes you're just fine - it's got to be mainly chemical! Still, I think that we can learn coping mechanisms that can help us off the drugs...like, learning not to snap at people right away or say what you think (did that twice at work today, although to a couple of evil people so I quite enjoyed it! Plus I only have two weeks left...:)
> ... now how could doctors know more about medication? ... there is so much to know.. and the probem is, i think, the system is so swamped with patients and so few doctors (psychiatry applications are down, mental health funding is down, etc etc) that docs are too busy seeing patients to find time to really keep abreast of all of this vast information....You are right. I agree that it shouldn't all rest on our doctors. Again, I return to my new (not that new, actually) soap box: instead of having to fork out $100 a session for a shrink (I'm a grad student! But I could just imagine that there are far more mentally ill folks out there who have far less money...)I think that it should be subsidized...doctors give us scrips and free samples because they are so pressed for time/money, but they wouldn't be if things were perhaps better regulated?
> ... my thoughts on smoking are... i believe, and this is just a belief, that whatever need you have to smoke can be satisfied by less toxic means...
Quite agreed. As an ex-smoker, I know it's true. Any need you have can be satisfied by non-lethal or harmful means...some of us just don't know where to look or have the money to look there...(like drug addicts, not that I've ever been one, but I can imagine it would be tough to just, say, check yourself into a drug clinic, especially if it costs money...)
> ... as for antidepressants, i don't think there are many less dangerous alternatives to relieving depression..... hey therapy would be nice, if you could afford it.... i also think that if i was given a million dollars i would cheer up... or if beautiful women threw themselves at my feet... but i guess this just isn't totally realistic ...
> --> but we can always hope :)See? There you go, proving my point. We use the drugs because they tend to be cheaper (esp. free samples, and if you have health insurance, the copay isn't bad). Maybe someone can contradict me with a story of a very cheap/charitable pdoc who gave their services for less than, say, $40 a session (that was my cheapest p-doc in college)?
> >hit by a car? Yes, but that would be HAPPENSTANCE versus you ACTIVELY doing something that you know could harm yourself!
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> ... i was under the impression that antidepressants generally have more positive effects than negative.... just like driving...
> whereas smoking is pretty much guaranteed to always have negative effects on health...
> ... but i admitt i am quite clueless as to the actual number of serious long term negative effects of medication ...Well, we think they do, because they make us feel better - sometimes fast. So we think they have more positive effects than negative - *think*! We don't know. The next generation will know more than we do, and the next, etc. It's funny; I work for a family of extremely wealthy folks right now, and it's amazing how much of a better life money buys you in this country. I mean, seriously - they always buy organic, shop in the health food stores, go to health spas for vacation, get massages, have tons of different shrinks...we should all be so lucky (i say lucky because many of them are the next generation inheritors of the wealth their parents worked for; they don't even work). That's why I want to move back to France - don'[t get me wrong, I adore America and am very patriotic! - but I ate so much vbetter there for CHEAP - and my doctor's appointments were about $10-20 a visit - plus, that was reimbursed by the state, even though I'm an American! I want to bring that kind of thinking back home, but we are quite stuck in our ways...
> i totally agree with you that medication shouldn't be given out in cases where it's not needed... i suppose though it's hard for a doc to know whether it is needed or not...
But...ideally isn't that his or her job? And if he/she can't answer the question, shouldn't they recommend you to someone who can? I recently heard from a nurse friend of mine that the reason they won't tell you you should go to a p-doc instead is that then, they would lose money in giving you the referral. Again - all about money! You can't tell me it's just human nature. We have to keep ourselves in check!
> .... in my case i have found docs very slow to jump on the medication bandwagon... i mean if i wanted to get my hands on lamotrigine for example, even though it seems to have very few negative effects and would seem to be very effective, actually finding a doc to perscribe it would be very tough...I'm glad...your docs at least seem to be thinking before doling out meds. And that's strange - why would it be tough for a doctor to prescribe you lamotrigine? Is it rare? New? I've not heard of it.
> .... so i guess the real question is... what do you think your doc should have done instead?Given me the name of a good p-doc, I guess. But she would lose money if she did that, and she won't do that. But then again - I can't afford to pay for a p-doc now anyway! I get 10 visits cheaply on my insurance, but I hate that - 10 is barely enough to get started, then you get sucked in to someone who is normally $100 a session!
> i totally agree ... perhaps drug companies should face tougher fines for not disclosing the negative effects of medication.... "we didn't think it was signifigant that our medication caused healthy volunteers to become suicidal" ...Yes, I totally agree there. Just like cigarette companies should face fines for not having disclosed to us the super negative effects of cigarettes - ok, now we can all say "everyone knows how bad they are" - but until that guy Russel Crowe played in "The INsider" - what's his name again - until he came out and testified that the tobacco companies knew that what they put in their tobacco was addictive - no one could say exactly what was so bad about them. It's all speculation until someone makes the drug companies talk. We don't know - we're not all pharmacologists/scientists etc.!
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> let us know how you are doing
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> i wish you well :)Thanks again for your kind thoughts. I think that I'm actually getting a clearer head now. I will surmount this thing inasmuch as I can without drugs - but again, I wouldn't judge you or anyone who chooses or needs to be on them. Right now, and until the drug companies get real with us (ha!), they are simply our best option.
Take care yourself.
Mireille
poster:Mireille
thread:112746
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020725/msgs/113893.html