Posted by svevo1922 on December 6, 2001, at 11:26:01
In reply to Re: Seconol? » Greg, posted by Else on December 5, 2001, at 13:53:45
Andrew Solomon's Noonday Demon, a book on depression that I believe just won the National Book Award, contains a chapter in which his family assisted the suicide of his mother, who was terminally ill with cancer. They used Seconal. (The family is involved in the medical and drug production fields, so presumably it was easier for them to get Seconal than others). The drug apparently works quite swiftly. Besides being just plain sad, it was a very uncomfortable chapter to read. And since to me it really did not involve the issue of ordinary depression, per se, I wish he had not included it. It made me feel like a voyeur and I couldn't help regarding Solomon as being exploitative, although I'm sure that was not his intention.
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If I were a pdoc I don't think I could ever in good conscience give Seconal to a depressed patient. As much as a non-terminal patient feels that there is no point in continuing, I don't think putting the equivalent of loaded gun in her or his hands can be justified. I don't mean to be facetious, but if a non-terminal patient wants to commit suicide he or should have "work" for it. If
I could merely clap my hands, I'd have been gone long ago. But getting out of this life, if you have any health left at all, is a million times more difficult than anyone can imagine. A thorough reading of the book by The Hemlock Society ("Final Exit"), or alt.suicide.holiday (suicide methods and hazards of miscalculation), is usually enough to freak out anyone sufficiently to give things another try.I don't know whether people really engage in "cries for help" by making suicide attempts. But if they do, Seconal works too well to serve as an emergency flare.
I'm not arguing against the individual's right to self-determination. I'm just saying that I don't think a person without a terminal illness (or something equivalent, incessant pain, inability to function, in the PATIENT's estimation) should expect Society to help. Plus, it avoids a descent down a dangerous slippery slide.
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> > > > I was curious why you never hear of Seconol being rx'd as a sleep aid anymore? It was a big thing in the 60's (known as reds), but you just never hear of it anymore. I'm really curious if anyone here takes, or has taken it recently?
> > > >
> > > > Greg
> > >
> > > It's the best overdose drug that exists. I think some (rare) doctors prescribe it to terminal patients who want to die with dignity. Let's just say I don't think pdocs would be too fond of this one for obvious reasons.
> >
> > I did some further research on this and found that while it is somewhat rare, seconol (and nembutol) are prescribed for some patients (including those with depression) who suffer from acute insomnia. Being a barbituate and highly additive, it doesn't happen very often. As little as 3 mg can cause an overdose. My grandparents both took Seconol for sleep for years with no problems, neither of them had a terminal illness.
> >
> > I wonder why any doctor would rx a drug to OD a terminally ill patient when there are other options? Hmmm....
>
> What other options? I don't know what you mean. Anyway, this is by no means common practice and it's probably considered second-degree murder but I have heard it happens, usually for patients who have degenerative illnesses. I used to work at a drugstore and I remember seeing a prescription for 100 Dilaudid in the delivery basket. Probably more than enough to do yourself in. I am not saying this was this doctor's intent but the result might have been the same. The thing is very sick people who have been on strong opiates for a while are less likely to OD from these drugs than other people. They might have built up a tolerance to the respiratory depression. This does not happen with barbiturates. Your grand-parents were probably not abusers but these drugs are dangerous in the hands of drug abusers or suicidally depressed people. Nembutal killed Marilyn Monroe, Seconal killed Judy Garland. Of course, in order to OD you actually have to mis-use these drugs but psych patients are probably more likely to do this than most people.
>
> Also, barbiturates can actually trigger depression. Phenobarbital, for instance, is known to have the potential to trigger depression in some of the epileptic patients who take it. Of course, in a hospital setting, these drugs might be useful but if I was a pdoc there is no way I would ever prescribe these. I would be too afraid of getting sued.
poster:svevo1922
thread:85960
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20011202/msgs/86143.html