Posted by SLS on October 27, 2000, at 22:48:31
In reply to Re: SLS...self medicating, posted by JohnL on October 27, 2000, at 14:26:45
Me from my previous post:
"Dear John,
"Please forgive me if I have misread this post."
SEE: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20001022/msgs/47449.html
"Are you encouraging someone to appropriate drugs from overseas without a prescription and describe how to self-medicate and perform experiments on themselves? No physician?
Wow."
See end of post for JohnL's reply to the above.
Dear John,Please don't take my unwillingness to continue to discuss things with you as capitulation.
Consider it an attempt at self-restraint.
(Advisement: The following 5 sentences are inappropriate, provocative, and a display of my tendency to take the coward's way out by making things personal. But I figured "what the hell." The hell with accountability. For those motivated to defend, please show me some mercy.)
I really don't want to embarrass you any more than you have already embarrassed yourself in my eyes. You have given me plenty of material to work with. I would only suggest that you consider toning-down your, what I consider to be, tendency to prescribe treatments without a license. After all, an M.D. pays good money for malpractice insurance. It doesn't seem fair that you shouldn't.
You stated that you had a "purpose". I can't imagine what this purpose might be.
> The last thing I wanted to do was stir up some discord. That's not my purpose here. I don't see this board as a place for that.
I understand that it is currently your privilege to tell people whatever you want to. Your privilege is not unique.
Let me describe to you my "purpose" for having posted along this thread by simply restating something I said in a previous post.
If you are so inclined to continue to tell people that it is senseless to continue an antidepressant beyond two weeks if they have felt nothing, I will be inclined to disagree with you. That will probably entail more than just my saying "I disagree".
John, do I have to ask *you* a million times? Or did you understand my question the first time.
In your attempt to sell Dr. Jensen, you have cited for these last six months the existence of three medical schools that include Jensen in their curriculum.
Q: What are the names of these three medical schools?
I doubt you have anything to fear. I'm sure your claims are legitimate. Actually, you shouldn't have anything to fear to begin with. Your reputation isn't being called into question, is it? Let's just work on Dr. Martin Jensen.
If your friend doesn't get his website back on line soon, I may have to take a trip to the library. Help save me some gasoline and just name these three schools - at least the one that I vaguely recall you specifying in a previous post.
Thank you. I appreciate your attention in this matter, as it will help educate Psycho-Babble as to the respect that the medical community affords Dr. Jensen.
Regarding c-FOS. I did not indicate that I felt it necessary for Dr. Jensen to discuss it in his book written primarily for the layman. However, it will be necessary for you to discuss it if you want to defend Jensen's assertions on how the human brain works, how drugs work, and the pathophysiology of affective disorders. Otherwise, I'm not sure it is indicated that you should try. You've had enough time to look up c-FOS, so I guess you are off to a good start.
- Scott
* For those following this thread, I would like to offer an opinion:If I were you, I would not listen to either JohnL or SLS (me) if you want consistently accurate facts and well-tempered judgment. There are quite a few intelligent (and brilliant), educated, informed, and caring people on this board without some sort of agenda of "purpose". I know I'm putting some people on the spot, and I will be forgetting so many, but... If I were me, I would pay particular attention to folks like Cam W., Sunnely, Danf, Noa, Medlib, AndrewB, Adam, stJames, Elizabeth (Shapere), PeterJ, and anyone who is kind enough to share their personal experiences with specific drugs and other treatment modalities.
Have I kissed enough butts?
Why things work is not nearly so important as what does work. I currently don't see any evidence that 3-4 day trials of a sequence of antidepressants works. I can think of a few reasons why it could be counterproductive. It might actually prevent someone from being as responsive to any one of the medications once the medication has been introduced a second time to what had previously been a drug-naive brain. In addition, I can't help to be fearful that a "pulsing" of so many antidepressants will precipitate mania in vulnerable individuals and induce an extremely difficult to treat rapid-cycling course. FACT: These things do happen. They are well documented. QUESTION: Will they happen using the Jensen 3-4 day protocol? I don't know. NOT FACT: I think they might.
I'm not sure it makes sense to "rock 'n' roll" when it comes to using such potent drug treatments for such a serious and debilitating illness.
Everyone be well, get well, and stay well. God bless all of us.
- Scott
-----------------------------------------------------------By the way, John. I am definitely not too funny.
I also want to make it clear that I am not to be included in the word "we" that you have become so fond of using. I'm not sure the rest of psychoneuropharmacological psychiatry would want to be either.
What are the names of the three medical schools?
If you can believe it, this has been restraint.
-----------------------------------------------------------
JohnL's reply to encouraging self-experimentation without the need for the consult or awareness of a physician or prescriptions:
"Scott,
You're too funny. Experiments on ourselves? Funny. What do you think doctors are doing to us? We're all experiments. Only, they get to experiment on us instead of themselves! As someone recently said, doctors are practicing medicine...yeah, practicing on us. Something like that.
Am I encouraging self medication? No. Will I help if asked questions? Yes. I won't abandon, no matter what someone's choice is.A person has made a conscious decision to do so. Their decision, not mine. I'm a veteran of both sides of the fence. That is, I was your standard garden variety psychiatric patient for half a decade, and then I was also a take-charge self medicating patient after that. I'm not at all qualified from a scholastic or legal point of view, but from an experience point of view it's a different story. Been there. Done that. Still do. I can be there with real life experience for anyone else who chooses for themselves the same path.
So someone wants to self medicate. Whoopie. They've obviously been disappointed by standard treatment. More power to them as far as I'm concerned. If asked, I'll do whatever I can to help them figure out how to get well. Am I qualified to do that? No. Capable? Yes.
Self medication does have risks that I think everyone should be aware of. 1)Know what early liver toxicity symptoms look like so it can be stopped promptly. 2)Know firmly what the risks are with the particular medication. 3)Know what side effects are normal, which are serious. 4)Know what can be combined, what can't, and how combinations affect concentrations of each other. 5)Know how to titrate on and off wisely.
You know, if all of a sudden there were no prescriptions needed for anything, and no doctors, I'm perfectly capable of managing my own affairs. I could pick out my own medication at the store. I know how to administer it and manage it safely. So would anyone else here who's been around the block. St James, Andrew, just a couple examples. In a world with no doctors, and all former prescription meds are now OTC, they would do fine regardless. They know what they're doing. (excluding scheduled controlled substances of course, which aren't available to a self medicator anyway)
Self medication isn't the almighty taboo voodoo sin you make it sound like it is. Average people who don't know a darn thing do it all the time, with SJW, aspirin, ginkgo, ma huang. These things can, and do, kill people, spark mania, cause heart attacks, eye bleeding, and more. Not a word on their self medicating. In comparison, some of these psychiatric drugs are far safer if for no other reason, we know more about them. Key word...'some'...not 'all'. Again, it's important the person knows the drug they're taking. One can't just haphazardly start popping pills. That applies equally to OTC and herbs, not just prescriptions. Someone would have to try real real hard to hurt themselves with Paxil. On the other hand, they could do serious damage fairly easily with careless dosing of aspirin or ma huang.
No big deal. If someone wants help, and I'm asked, I'll help. I treat myself the way I want, and someone else can do the same. If I can help them avoid some common pitfalls, I will try. In this case, the person has an awesome medical manual and roadmap to follow and won't likely need much help. More power to them as far as I'm concerned. I'm not encouraging, but not discouraging either. We're all different.
John"
poster:SLS
thread:46914
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20001022/msgs/47580.html