Posted by Sigolene on October 3, 2000, at 15:27:46
In reply to SSRI Blunting, posted by JohnL on October 2, 2000, at 18:10:24
> Here's something I found surfing the net. The source and the author were not given. I have no clue. But for what it's worth, it was kind of interesting and thought provoking. So, whoever you are (author), take it away...
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> L'Hypothèse de la balance Sérotonine/Sérotonine (1994)
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> Typical and Atypical SSRIs: Fluvoxamine and Fluoxetine
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> Since the advent of the specific serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), I have been much interested in studying and describing their effects on myself and other volunteers as I think the effects of any psychotropic molecule cannot be understood without introspective observations by specialists.
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> Such a responsible attitude was common before 1945 but then, the USA started to rise and demonise, progressively, this reasonable approach and imposed its views on other countries. . .
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> Introspective research nearly stopped and only isolated people like Shulgin, for instance, continued their researches.
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> The demonisation of this or that by the economical giant called the USA is a remnant of its puritanical background and has nothing to do with Science whatsoever but this is another debate! It is a sheer Inquisition coming from the Middle-Ages into the Modern era.
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> From my experiments with serotoninergics I first discovered that what we call serotoninergic "anti-depressants (thymoanaleptics) are not, in fact, anti-depressants per se but should, logically, be classified as thymoanesthesisers (thymoanesthésiants).
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> Thymoanesthesisers are molecules which anaesthesise emotions. Emotional blunting, induced by these molecules and by some alleged anti-depressants(such as maprotiline or captopril, for instance), is misinterpreted, by those scientists who have never tested the effects of these molecules on themselves and normal volunteers, as an "anti-depressant" effect because simply patients DO NOT COMPLAIN anymore!!!
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> Thymoanesthesisers have spectacular effects on lovers (amoureux): they will efficiently block their love feelings, which will be replaced by indifference. Thus, such molecules induce an EMOTIONAL DEFICIT. Can then we really call such molecules which induce a deficit, reminiscent of the negative symptoms of schizophrenia, true anti-depresssants?
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> The answer is a categorical "No".
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> In fact, my researches have demonstrated that the conceptually only authentic serotoninergic thymoanaleptic is TIANEPTINE which DECREASES serotonin neurotransmission. It is also a
> well-known fact that such molecules as M. D. M. A (3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine), which also
> decrease serotoninergic neurotransmission, enhance pleasurable emotions, an observation which is consistent with the fact that SSRIs are thymoanesthesisers and NOT thymoanaleptics (MDMA is also a serotonin releaser but this gives rise to subjective effects similar to those one can observe under fluvoxamine).
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> So, experimentation clearly demonstrates that enhancement of serotonin action normally leads to emotional blunting while reduction of serotonin action leads to mood stimulation. The concept of thymoanaesthesia rationnally clarifies why molecules with opposite effects on serotonin, such as tianeptine and fluvoxamine, for instance, are grossly both "anti-depressants" as seen by OUTSIDE OBSERVERS.
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> The second thing which I discovered is that the typical serotoninergics (zimelidine, indalpine, fluvoxamine):
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> 1.Decrease the quantity of thoughts reaching consciousness per unit of time (they act on a CNS structure called the "Attenuator" of which the function is to control the quantity of information flowing from memory to consciousness).
> 2.Decrease or suppress dream recalls.
> 3.Induce sleep.
> 4.Relieve, to some extent, different kinds of pains (headaches, etc).
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> Fluvoxamine is considered by this author as the reference typical SSRI.
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> Fluoxetine, on the other hand, was found to be atypical:
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> 1.It does not substantially decrease the quantity of thoughts reaching consciousness.
> In fact it promotes the opposite under the form of subhallucinations.
> 2.It induces insomnia
> 3.It causes pain such as headaches.
> 4.It increases dream recalls.
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> All this suggests 5-HT2A preferential stimulation!
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> Fluoxetine effects are all antagonised by fluvoxamine. For instance if you cannot sleep because of fluoxetine then you can take an equipotent dose of fluvoxamine and you will feel sleepy.
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> An hypothesis which I devised to try to understand these opposite effects is the concept of the "serotonin/serotonin balance".
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> This concept says that any NET global behavioural serotoninergic effect is the ratio of those serotoninergic processes which decrease dopamine neurotransmission and those serotoninergic processes which increase dopamine neurotransmission, such as 5-HT2A receptors stimulation.
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> According to this hypothesis, typical SSRIs would INCREASE this ratio and thus, preferentially, stimulate those 5-HT receptors which decrease dopamine neurotransmission while atypical SSRIs would,
> preferentially, stimulate 5-HT2A receptors and so stimulate dopamine neurotransmission.
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> Fluoxetine seems to be the only SSRI which can induce subhallucinations. This effect is evidently mediated through 5-HT2A serotoninergic receptors.
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> The concept of the serotonin/serotonin balance is an extension of a previous hypothesis which I devised and which I called the "dopamine/serotonin balance". This hypothesis states that, very often, dopamine and serotonin act in opposite directions. For instance dopamine increases behavioural activation while serotonin decreases all behaviours to a quiescent state.
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> The consequence of this is that both neurotransmitters should always be studied SIMULTANEOUSLY in order to appraise properly the effects of "serotonin" or "dopamine" on behaviour.
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> In conclusion, fluvoxamine and fluoxetine represent different types of SSRIs.
> .What i can tell about all this, is that when i tried fluvoxamine, fluoxetine or tianeptine, i have EXACTLY the same reaction. My body just reject this meds acting on 5-HT, my depression is worsening in all cases. So, i think that if what you say is true, it shoudln't be the case. I mean i should react differently.
Sigolene.
poster:Sigolene
thread:45690
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000926/msgs/45751.html