Posted by shar on July 1, 2000, at 1:39:18
In reply to AllTheWorldIsCrazyExceptMeAndThee and you're here!, posted by Johnturner77 on June 30, 2000, at 11:46:57
Sorry, need to jump in here for a moment.
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> If the whole thing comes unglued(its amazing in a way that it hasn't) our perspective on people like Ted Kaczynski and Tim LaVey may change. We may see them as heroes, having clearer insight into the social emergency we live in. We may say we should have listened.
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This may be true. I remember when Arafat and the PLO were blowing up schools, and school buses, and children and the general consensus was that he was very, very bad and nuts. And, today...well... I am stunned every time I see him welcomed into some political function, handshaking all around, smiling, pats on the back. I shudder.I don't think that any man that could commit such heinous acts, as he did, for any purpose whatsoever is "sane" as I define it. He may walk and talk and act in functional ways, but there is a constitutional defect (my opinion) in such a person that makes him axiomatically out of touch. Perhaps it is "only" megalomania in an extreme form.
I believe killing of the innocents in bulk to be irrational, indefensible, and not the act of a sane person(IMHO). I cannot imagine ever believing that Kosinski and/or McVey were sane, rational, reasonable, or in control of themselves, nor that they furthered their cause.
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Its probably just legend, but some say that if you put a toad in a container of water and heat is slowly enough you can cook the toad without it jumping out. Isn't that what is happening with our environment?To a considerable degree we come here because we are casualties of our society. I remember sitting on a island in Maine a few years back without a single human sound and no human lights. In the peace and quiet I realized that there were probably too many humans on this planet. Also, we are subjected to a lot of stresses that we aren't even aware are stressors and probably aren't designed to handle.
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Re: the environment being passively allowed to self-destruct (or other-destruct), I don't believe so. Rachel Carson wrote Silent Spring in the 60's and environmental concerns have been in the world consciousness ever since (to varying degrees at various times). Some people do not hesitate to sell out the environment, they take action to make a profit. Others harm (or get harmed) to make a living. Others are unwilling to do harm, and take action to protect the environment. Other people recycle their newspapers and cans.I believe in most of the world, people are slowly becoming aware of what we've wrought over the decades. It's starting to affect people's livelihood now, and that's turning them in to (perhaps unwilling) environmentalists (as in the salmon fishers for one example). And even scientists are hoist with their own petard because their "clean" plastic test tubes contain enough contaminants to interact with the substances they hold.
And, people in cities everywhere are no longer content to let the new company move in so everybody can have a job--when it means the contamination of their environment.
There is a history here that is worth remembering. The mindset of "better living thru chemistry" was true for most people for a while. It did seem that much of what was happening (in the 40's, 50's) was good. But, people had to learn along the way--take DDT for example. It did do an excellent job at pest control, but it took time for people to learn about the other awful things it did. And that knowledge grew a community of people dedicated to protecting people and the earth from DDT.
Or practicing what to do in school if there was a nuclear attack (get under your desk of course). Now we know much better, and we've come a long way from "get under your desk." It will take time for us to learn everything.
There are few angels (and a number of SOB's) in the arena, but I think using such a broad brush to paint the picture about our environment and humanity is just as misleading as saying there is nothing wrong.
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> Time and again throughout history whole nations snap and stop behaving in their self interest. Maybe relative calm will continue for another hundred years. Or a mess like WW2 only more up to date will engulf us all. Who's crazy then? The "reasonable" Neville Chamberlains? Or the pain in the neck types that we said were over reacting?
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I don't think it's that simple. I think we may well kill off a bunch of ourselves on a massive scale; especially when we try to solve the problems we caused with more chemistry...And, we should remember that there are also problems in existence as a result of efforts on behalf of the environment. Not much in this world is linear.It also depends on how one defines "overreaction" or "crazy." Many accomplishments benefiting the world and the environment have been attained without having to kill children, or mail out incendiary devices, or call out the dogs and night sticks, or hold hostages or blow up jets, or gas people in the subways.
I believe in every era, there have been events that appeared to be leading to the end. Humans (and the earth), however, evolve (learn) and adapt, and there are always people around who will devote their energy to positive change and harm to none.
There is also a whole population of people who are so involved in trying to care for and feed their families, they haven't begun to consider some of the issues.
We won't all of us be reaching the same conclusions at the same time, and we won't all consider the same issues equally important, but I don't plan to kill anyone to make my point, nor will I abandon my efforts to change things.
Shar
poster:shar
thread:37688
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000630/msgs/38911.html